Trying to find a fair solution

[PokeParadox]

Sell the vouchers? I don't know. It might be OK if there were only a few queuers, but with hundreds of queuers, wouldn't it become pretty much a standard practice to get a voucher from ebay, then head over to EDs shop?

Yes this would be a problem, if people who wanted to buy a Pandora get a cheap Pandora this way. On the other hand a lot of kids will not buy the Pandora for 500€ but for 349€, which are still 50€ profit for ED. To avoid this problem, you can let the people buy the 350€ vouchers from ED. So they get their vouchers, when they pay ED 350€. This would include the risk of not being able to sell the voucher, so around 90% less (just a guess) vouchers would be handed out.

This would lower the profits of the Pandoras, but maybe you can sell some Pandoras with 50€ profit to people who would never had bought a Pandora.

So, excuse me if I'm over-simplifying... You want ED to sell Craig's pre-orders a Pandora at or near cost AND gift/give Criag's pre-orders a giant voucher for future purchases in ED's store?


It seems that you're failing to realize that ED doesn't owe Craig's customers anything. Him offering to sell Craig's customers a Pandora at a discount - let alone the steep discount he's offering - is huge in and of itself.


The money given to Craig is gone. It no longer 'counts'. No, it isn't fair. That is between Craig and his pre-orders.


Any solution that requires ED to pay people from Craig's queue to take an ED created/stocked/sold unit is simple insanity.


Painful as it may be, those still in the queue need to either take a cross upgrade or write it off.

I think the voucher is to secure a Pandora at that price, not a voucher worth €350...

 

[rohezal]

I think the voucher is to secure a Pandora at that price, not a voucher worth €350...

Yes.

The "350€ for a Pandora Voucher" has 2 ways and 3 outcomes. Each voucher means 50€ profit from a sale instead of 150€ profit from a sale.

First Way:

Give the option to pay 350€ extra to get a voucher for a second 1 GHZ unit. Almost nobody will use it, so it is not very important.

___________________

Second way:

Give a voucher for free, which makes it possible to buy a Pandora for 350€. This way everybody in queue will get one, if he buys a Pandora.

First: nobody uses it (unrealistic)

Second: People use it for themself.

Third: People sell it to friends or on ebay and a lot of people buy Pandoras for 350€.

___________________

The second and third way means a lot of people will get a cheap Ghz Pandora. This could have again 2 outcomes:

First:

Get more attention to the Pandora. When I show my friend my Pandora I can say: "Hey special price for you, 349€ instead of 450€. Want one too?" When we have some 349€ Pandoras on ebay some people will buy one, which would not have bought one for 450€. So more customers with low profit and almost no losses (this people won't have bought a Pandora anyway for 450€, since Shield costs 299$).

Second:

Everyone who wanted a Pandora, will now get a voucher and pay 100€ less. Means 66% less income, means the Pandora Preorder Queue will probably never be empty.

I think First and second will happen both.

__________________________

Conclusion:

I think giving a free voucher "second Ghz Pandora for 350€" to everyone in the queue is too risky. Maybe give one to the 300€ (and maybe 200€) upgraders. Statisticly people with much money know more people with much money (like gay people know statisticly more gay people ), so it is more likely their friends will take this great offer. Or just  do the "pay 350€ for a voucher" option and send it to the people who have paid the voucher for the second Pandora.

Edit: I don't want to sound arrogant. I have myself not much money (why do I live in the only german state where you have to pay a study fee for university?), I want to offend nobody. But someone who is in his thirties, has a Job and maybe a house, has more likely friends in the same age. And with 30 you have most time more money then with 20.

 

[ekianjo]

And with 30 you have most time more money then with 20.

Not always true. You may have more need to spend money as well (if you have kids and so on).  

DIsposable income gets higher when :

- you are working in your early 20s before getting a family

- you get older after your kids are not dependent on you anymore.

And certainly not "more time" when you are in your 30s. For me I had so much more free time when I was in my 20s. 

 

[ShleeDragon]

It is not about "justice" it is about giving as much as possible people in the preorder queue a Pandora. The 300€ / 100€ Pandoras sounds good. People who can't afford that, can maybe use the "pay 200€ and get the rest from donations and profits" option. Maybe add a "pay 50€ get a classic pandora from donations and profits" option.

Maybe write an email an explain 5 options:

Get a "300€ for a instant Ghz Pandora" voucher. Get an additional "350€ for a Ghz Pandora voucher" you can sell.

Get a "200€ for a Ghz Pandora" voucher which includes long waiting.

Get a "100€ for a instant Classic Pandora" voucher. Get an additional "350€ for a Ghz Pandora voucher" you can sell.

Get a "50€ for a Classic Pandora" voucher which includes long waiting.

Get a Rebirth Pandora for free. Takes up to 4 years to deliver or will maybe never be delivered.

If you are honest and tell the people this 5 options (and the background story AND THAT THE PANDORAS ARE ON STOCK, include a photo of alot Pandoras at your shop in this mail), I think a lot will choose to pay 50€ to get at least something (they can sell it for 200€ or more, so it is ok).

Choice is the enemy. The point of the next survey is meant to offer them a realistic solution and stop leaving the undead queue hanging on false assumptions.

ED needs to offer A or B.. that's it... all of these sub options simply feed the monster. 

Remember, the point is to kill the queue by removing the bandaid quickly... These options will create ANOTHER queue because I can bet you given a choice of 300 and a discount - They will choose the discount and ED will be back at the beginning.

 

[Trip]

I don't see why the option to take a Pandora board only hasn't been mentioned yet. With TV out working, a power supply and a USB controller, it would make a decent enough dedicated gaming console.

Not only would that be a lot cheaper to fulfil some of the pre-orders but it would have the added bonus of getting more Pandoras out to people. More people that have any type of Pandora, would mean more people to write software for it and to bug fix the emulators and such.

I'm not too sure how many would be up for this but it could be another option worth looking into

 

[timwylie]

Again, where's the talk about reduced refunds?  Other or used devices?  Surely these are cheaper options than funding for a new pandora.

And to address the "where are all the preorderers?" question.  Many, like myself, don't visit very often because it's hard to say anything without 100 people (from Ed's side) telling you that it'd be better if Craig's queue were just dropped and that all his orderers shouldn't get one or should basically have to double what they've paid to get it.  Ed is extremely kind and smart, and I have always appreciated his effort and his communication with the community.  The forum in general can be a little rough though.  Ed has mentioned many times about how it would be bad for the image of the pandora if that many orders were just cancelled.

I know most people don't care, but in 2008 there was NO distinction between the two companies.  We ordered where we were told.  There aren't two company webpages or two forums.  It STILL only appears as one company.  Now imagine 500 people are told that the company is just going to drop their orders after 5 years of broken promises, waiting, etc.  I think that would end up being very bad publicity for the pandora- not for Craig or Ed, but the pandora itself.  Because again, only people that have one even realize it's two companies.  The pandora was supposed to be about openness and community.  The forum has been great to rally and donate to help the cause, but in the end, there is still an air of Craig's preorderers as being less deserving simply because Craig is a jerk.

Please keep in mind I'm not trying to call anyone out, and I'm just trying to answer the question.

 

[ekianjo]

I don't see why the option to take a Pandora board only hasn't been mentioned yet. With TV out working, a power supply and a USB controller, it would make a decent enough dedicated gaming console.

The whole point of the pandora is that it's a portable system. Remove that part, and you're better with a regular Linux PC with a USB controller. There's nothing specific to the Pandora in that regard.

Again, where's the talk about reduced refunds?

 

Yeah, why don't you ask Craig where the money went ? I'm sure the Pandora 1Ghz pre-orders are also dying to know. 

 

[ekianjo]

It STILL only appears as one company.

I arrived late in the game (2012 with the Rebirth coming out) but at that time it was already very clear on the forums that ED was the trustable one and that Craig was full of **** (always going for evasive answers). It became very clear that ordering with ED was the way to go. 

I agree with you it's probably not ideal to have customers from 2 different shops under a single forum, just like it does not look very good to have the ICP2 mess on the same forum as well. It does give the appearance that everything around the Pandora is not running as it should (the least to say). 

 

[Trip]

I don't see why the option to take a Pandora board only hasn't been mentioned yet. With TV out working, a power supply and a USB controller, it would make a decent enough dedicated gaming console.

The whole point of the pandora is that it's a portable system. Remove that part, and you're better with a regular Linux PC with a USB controller. There's nothing specific to the Pandora in that regard.

Not at all. One of the best things about the Pandora and other such devices is that they give you a single platform with which to code for. This makes it easier to write software as one program fits all. It also means that bugs in emulators and other software are easier and faster to track down due to all systems using the same drivers etc.

 

[timwylie]

I arrived late in the game (2012 with the Rebirth coming out) but at that time it was already very clear on the forums that ED was the trustable one and that Craig was full of **** (always going for evasive answers). It became very clear that ordering with ED was the way to go.

That was clear to me too once these forums existed, but it is only clear on the forums.  I don't think it's bad to have a single forum for the device, but the website should make the company distinction.  Although maybe that's not needed anymore since Ed's is essentially the only company now.

 

[ekianjo]

Not at all. One of the best things about the Pandora and other such devices is that they give you a single platform with which to code for. This makes it easier to write software as one program fits all. It also means that bugs in emulators and other software are easier and faster to track down due to all systems using the same drivers etc.

If you really feel that way then you are way better getting an OUYA or a Raspberry Pi. These are also single platforms and they are MADE to be connected on screens in the first place. The Pandora is not. TV-out was just "nice to have". 

I like the fact that one can use the Pandora on the TV when needed, but using it as a TV-only device is completely missing the point. Besides, I have never seen major bugs in emulators on Linux PCs that were not fixed, and actually most of the emulators on Linux PCs work better than on Pandora (of course, the hardware makes the difference). So, I'm not sure what you are talking about, really. 

 

[ekianjo]

Although maybe that's not needed anymore since Ed's is essentially the only company now.

Actually it is still needed, since the remaining pre-orders are not with HIS company, technically speaking. He finished his queue already. Pandora Ltd still exists afaik, and still is supposed to deliver the Pandoras that were paid for. 

 

[timwylie]

Yeah, it was a joke.  Maybe I should have added a smiley.

 

[Trip]

Not at all. One of the best things about the Pandora and other such devices is that they give you a single platform with which to code for. This makes it easier to write software as one program fits all. It also means that bugs in emulators and other software are easier and faster to track down due to all systems using the same drivers etc.

If you really feel that way then you are way better getting an OUYA or a Raspberry Pi. These are also single platforms and they are MADE to be connected on screens in the first place. The Pandora is not. TV-out was just "nice to have". 

I like the fact that one can use the Pandora on the TV when needed, but using it as a TV-only device is completely missing the point. Besides, I have never seen major bugs in emulators on Linux PCs that were not fixed, and actually most of the emulators on Linux PCs work better than on Pandora (of course, the hardware makes the difference). So, I'm not sure what you are talking about, really.

What I'm talking about is another option that would help clear the pre-order queue and at the same time bring more software and developers to the community. There might be better options out there but none of them will help out the current situation will they?

Most emulators do work better on PC's but what do you expect when they've had a lot longer to work on them. Not to mention the extra power. This doesn't mean that a Pandora board wouldn't do the job well enough though does it?

Way to miss the point completely <_<

 

[ShleeDragon]

We're in the danger zone people. Let's get back on topic.
 

https://www.youtube.com/embed/bfvxtL9wO4w?feature=oembed

 

[ekianjo]

What I'm talking about is another option that would help clear the pre-order queue and at the same time bring more software and developers to the community. There might be better options out there but none of them will help out the current situation will they?   Most emulators do work better on PC's but what do you expect when they've had a lot longer to work on them. Not to mention the extra power. This doesn't mean that a Pandora board wouldn't do the job well enough though does it?   Way to miss the point completely

- Schlee let me answer this one at least.

Trip, people ordered the Pandora because they wanted a portable system. If you give them something that goes on TV and that needs an additional peripheral it;s not what they ordered anymore at all. I don't see why are you walking away from that logic. 

As for the PC emulation, my point was that why would one want to get a Pandora for TV-out emulation when they can just use their regular laptop PC with HDMI to do that ? It's better in all aspects of emulation, and you get a digital out instead of the analog out of the Pandora. 

If there's someone missing the point, it's not me here. Ask the pre-orders folks if they want a TV-out only version of the Pandora, and let's come back and talk again then. 

 

[Trip]

What I'm talking about is another option that would help clear the pre-order queue and at the same time bring more software and developers to the community. There might be better options out there but none of them will help out the current situation will they?   Most emulators do work better on PC's but what do you expect when they've had a lot longer to work on them. Not to mention the extra power. This doesn't mean that a Pandora board wouldn't do the job well enough though does it?   Way to miss the point completely

- Schlee let me answer this one at least.

Trip, people ordered the Pandora because they wanted a portable system. If you give them something that goes on TV and that needs an additional peripheral it;s not what they ordered anymore at all. I don't see why are you walking away from that logic. 

As for the PC emulation, my point was that why would one want to get a Pandora for TV-out emulation when they can just use their regular laptop PC with HDMI to do that ? It's better in all aspects of emulation, and you get a digital out instead of the analog out of the Pandora. 

If there's someone missing the point, it's not me here. Ask the pre-orders folks if they want a TV-out only version of the Pandora, and let's come back and talk again then. 

Your the one wanting to give the pre-order people nothing. Don't you think this would be a better idea than nothing or do you not see that??

Some people asked for a console version of the Pandora years ago so It's not like people haven't asked for this to happen before. It would also allow people to buy the rest of the parts to make a full unit when they have the money available instead of having to pay out over £300 all at once.

 

[PokeParadox]

What I'm talking about is another option that would help clear the pre-order queue and at the same time bring more software and developers to the community. There might be better options out there but none of them will help out the current situation will they? Most emulators do work better on PC's but what do you expect when they've had a lot longer to work on them. Not to mention the extra power. This doesn't mean that a Pandora board wouldn't do the job well enough though does it? Way to miss the point completely

- Schlee let me answer this one at least.


Trip, people ordered the Pandora because they wanted a portable system. If you give them something that goes on TV and that needs an additional peripheral it;s not what they ordered anymore at all. I don't see why are you walking away from that logic.


As for the PC emulation, my point was that why would one want to get a Pandora for TV-out emulation when they can just use their regular laptop PC with HDMI to do that ? It's better in all aspects of emulation, and you get a digital out instead of the analog out of the Pandora.


If there's someone missing the point, it's not me here. Ask the pre-orders folks if they want a TV-out only version of the Pandora, and let's come back and talk again then.

Your the one wanting to give the pre-order people nothing. Don't you think this would be a better idea than nothing or do you not see that??

Some people asked for a console version of the Pandora years ago so It's not like people haven't asked for this to happen before. It would also allow people to buy the rest of the parts to make a full unit when they have the money available instead of having to pay out over £300 all at once.

Only issue is the board is the expensive part Trip.
That and Pandora with TV out is not as user firendly as it could be, needs some extra love. Nice idea if people want that option but I can't see it working.

 

[Trip]

Only issue is the board is the expensive part Trip.
That and Pandora with TV out is not as user firendly as it could be, needs some extra love. Nice idea if people want that option but I can't see it working.

True on both accounts but the TV-out needs improving anyway and it could still save money and clear more pre-orders.

I really don't see why this shouldn't be an option. Just because you or I wouldn't go for it, doesn't mean that nobody else would.

 

[ekianjo]

I really don't see why this shouldn't be an option. Just because you or I wouldn't go for it, doesn't mean that nobody else would.

Very simple, because the more options you have, the more complex it becomes, the more costly it becomes to deal with each of them (in time and efforts). You can't just provide every option on Earth, when doing business there is a good balance to find between what's technically feasible, what people want and what's worth doing from a business standpoint. That's precisely why you don't have 100 choices in the poll for options on how to deal with pre-orders situations.