Trying to find a fair solution

[Klumpen]

Damn, think about all the great software (and improvements) we could have had with all this money.

Still no chance to get some of the money back from CC?

 

[MrConfusion]

With all these suggestions and 6 pages of "stuff", I wonder whether people who now start to read the thread and vote actually know what they are voting for.

Only 15-18 votes from queuers.

Most of them really seem to have stopped caring and just wait for the "final word"?

I'm a bit surprised. The queue definitely doesn't have that many active forum members. Makes you wonder how many of them were only interested in the product 4-5 years ago. At a certain age that is a Very Long Time. More than sufficient for a person to loose all interest in something like the Pandora.

I mean: 500 people < 20 votes. That's nothing!

 

[ekianjo]

I mean: 500 people < 20 votes. That's nothing!

Actually that's a pretty high participation rate for a poll on the Internets. Usually participation is less than 0.1% in generic polls.

 

[ElPoco]

I agree with Rohezal but I'm afraid of something.

What I'm afraid of is that most of the remaining pre-orderers are probably people like me, who didn't upgrade during any of the upgrade phases (Craig's first 1Ghz offer, ED's 270 upgrade offer, etc.). 

So I think that telling these people: "either you pay 300 to get one now, you pay 200 and probably get one later or you don't pay and maybe get something in five years but probably not" will give you many people who'll go for the third option, some of them going for the second, but I don't think many (if any) will go for the first one.

I, as a pre-orderer, can't really see a solution that would both completely please me and require as little money as possible from external sources. Maybe something like "Pay 300€, get your 1Ghz pandora, and the option to get any successor of the Pandora (if there ever is one) at production cost as soon as it's available".

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

 Way back I sent an email to CC asking them why there has been all of these technical problems regarding the OpenPandora?? . I told them I was one of many OpenPandora users that was having problems with my device as a result of their alleged poor quality control. I also stated that there was many disgruntled owners due to this situation.

I invited them to enter the forum and defend themselves. 

One week later the CC response was that there might be legal action involved due to deformation of character and/or other circumstances and that OpenPandora was complaining unnecessarily and incessantly.

It shocked me  that they divulged so much information to me. I wish I saved that email.

This is not a troll and I hope no one is upset with me for doing this. It was long ago.

 

[MrConfusion]

I mean: 500 people < 20 votes. That's nothing!

Actually that's a pretty high participation rate for a poll on the Internets. Usually participation is less than 0.1% in generic polls.

Your average poll does not concern ~325 euros (which, it is starting to sound to me, is closer to the average).

Euros you've spent, no matter how long ago.

No, people don't know this is going on. They should be invited here to discuss for this to be more meaningfull.

 

[Timstertoo]

 Way back I sent an email to CC asking them why there has been all of these technical problems regarding the OpenPandora?? . I told them I was one of many OpenPandora users that was having problems with my device as a result of their alleged poor quality control. I also stated that there was many disgruntled owners due to this situation.

I invited them to enter the forum and defend themselves. 

One week later the CC response was that there might be legal action involved due to deformation of character and/or other circumstances and that OpenPandora was complaining unnecessarily and incessantly.

It shocked me  that they divulged so much information to me. I wish I saved that email.

This is not a troll and I hope no one is upset with me for doing this. It was long ago.

Knowing what I know now I feel rather stupid going of on CC back then. So apologies CC, forgive me I was young, ignorant and arrogant at the time.

If Craig had the same level of communication and sticking to things agreed on as he has towards us (original pre orders) and the whole ICP2 crowd I'm not surprised at all it was a cock up. 

I can see how they are waiting for money, parts, a go ahead, a simple tidbit of information and at a certain point just thought "screw it". I'd be extremely surprised if there was any legal basis for Craig to pursue them, if only because he probably would have by now, instead of them just simply handing over a bunch of unanswered mails and unpaid, or paid much too late, invoices and shrugging. 

The whole process with GC where ED is in constant communication and was on the spot during the first runs to smooth out any problems was obviously the way to go and it's good that at least ED is capable of doing something a bit better every time.

On a side note. I said something similar ages ago but I'm more and more sure of it. Even though this must've been hell for ED and to an extent still is. If you look at how much he's experienced, how well he did under the enormous stress. Showing the ability to have helicopter view and come up with a plan and execute it meticiously and even though many people are unhappy they'd still jump in with ED on a new project in a heartbeat. This experience is going to benefit him for the rest of his life and I'd like to believe that in 20 years he'll look back and say it was well worth it although it sucked monkeyballs at the time. 

 

[akarolick]

With all these suggestions and 6 pages of "stuff", I wonder whether people who now start to read the thread and vote actually know what they are voting for.

Only 15-18 votes from queuers.

Most of them really seem to have stopped caring and just wait for the "final word"?

I'm a bit surprised. The queue definitely doesn't have that many active forum members. Makes you wonder how many of them were only interested in the product 4-5 years ago. At a certain age that is a Very Long Time. More than sufficient for a person to loose all interest in something like the Pandora.

I mean: 500 people < 20 votes. That's nothing!

That is an astute observation. I suppose most of them have probably either forgotten or just written it off... Or don't frequent the forums enough to know about this.... or just don't want to make an account in order to vote...

 

[MrConfusion]

 Maybe something like "Pay 300€, get your 1Ghz pandora, and the option to get any successor of the Pandora (if there ever is one) at production cost as soon as it's available".

No, not production cost, that would be Bad for the P2 project if one ever is born. If a limit really needs to be set, it should be "with a -25% cut from the sellers profit margin". But better just talk about a vague discount.

Offering "production cost" P2s would just mean it would be very hard for the P2 to start bringing in profit. And it would have to do it.

When I bought my Handera and started tracking sources and material I'd need to compile for it (both the Clie and the Handera are special, because they have features like "nonstandard" displays and digital audio), I really realized what I want possibly most from the Pandora: At least a somewhat thriving platform. The Pandora has sufficient community to drive it for quite some while, but without a successor it will eventually dry out.

Actually, someone asked on these forums whether "the Palm OS4 stuff even exists anymore", I can answer: yes and no. Yes, in the shady side of internet where nothing ever dies and pages get 1 view per three months. No, not in anything that would resemble an official site even remotely!

 

[akarolick]

 Way back I sent an email to CC asking them why there has been all of these technical problems regarding the OpenPandora?? . I told them I was one of many OpenPandora users that was having problems with my device as a result of their alleged poor quality control. I also stated that there was many disgruntled owners due to this situation.

I invited them to enter the forum and defend themselves. 

One week later the CC response was that there might be legal action involved due to deformation of character and/or other circumstances and that OpenPandora was complaining unnecessarily and incessantly.

It shocked me  that they divulged so much information to me. I wish I saved that email.

This is not a troll and I hope no one is upset with me for doing this. It was long ago.

Knowing what I know now I feel rather stupid going of on CC back then. So apologies CC, forgive me I was young, ignorant and arrogant at the time.

If Craig had the same level of communication and sticking to things agreed on as he has towards us (original pre orders) and the whole ICP2 crowd I'm not surprised at all it was a cock up. 

I can see how they are waiting for money, parts, a go ahead, a simple tidbit of information and at a certain point just thought "screw it". I'd be extremely surprised if there was any legal basis for Craig to pursue them, if only because he probably would have by now, instead of them just simply handing over a bunch of unanswered mails and unpaid, or paid much too late, invoices and shrugging. 

The whole process with GC where ED is in constant communication and was on the spot during the first runs to smooth out any problems was obviously the way to go and it's good that at least ED is capable of doing something a bit better every time.

On a side note. I said something similar ages ago but I'm more and more sure of it. Even though this must've been hell for ED and to an extent still is. If you look at how much he's experienced, how well he did under the enormous stress. Showing the ability to have helicopter view and come up with a plan and execute it meticiously and even though many people are unhappy they'd still jump in with ED on a new project in a heartbeat. This experience is going to benefit him for the rest of his life and I'd like to believe that in 20 years he'll look back and say it was well worth it although it sucked monkeyballs at the time. 

GOD YES!  Even if I never get a Pandora, I will throw money at WHATEVER ED does next. I am genuinely excited about what he might want to do next. Mind you i would rather throw the money in the trash if Craig is involved in any way greater than just reselling the systems in a shop.

 

[ghostpatch]

to say it bluntly, the remaining people with preorders made a deal with Craig. This means Craig and only Craig is responsible! ED has no legal or even moral obligation to fulfill remaining preorders! BUT he is doing so anyway with great support of the community:

- people in Craigs queue can get a Pandora for production cost (if I'm a little off here plz correct me)

- profit from sold Pandoras is beeing used to fulfill preorders

- the community is heavily donationg to fulfill preorders, or to lower upgrade cost

poeple saying cut the line, move forward have a valid point and certainly the right to state their opinion. The majority seems to support preorder fulfillment anyway (although it will probably take some time)

so yes EDs solution is fair. I don't see any "better solution" without ED spending his private money and thats not acceptable! If anyone has a realistic solution which is better plz come forward

don't get me wrong I'm not aigainst anyone here, so don't be offended plz!

 

[levi]

No, people don't know this is going on. They should be invited here to discuss for this to be more meaningfull.

ED stated on the front page that this will be sent out by email once we've pointed out any unfairness in it, if there is any. It is called 'trying to find a fair solition' not 'this is a fair solution', after all.

 

[Timstertoo]

 Way back I sent an email to CC asking them why there has been all of these technical problems regarding the OpenPandora?? . I told them I was one of many OpenPandora users that was having problems with my device as a result of their alleged poor quality control. I also stated that there was many disgruntled owners due to this situation.

I invited them to enter the forum and defend themselves. 

One week later the CC response was that there might be legal action involved due to deformation of character and/or other circumstances and that OpenPandora was complaining unnecessarily and incessantly.

It shocked me  that they divulged so much information to me. I wish I saved that email.

This is not a troll and I hope no one is upset with me for doing this. It was long ago.

Knowing what I know now I feel rather stupid going of on CC back then. So apologies CC, forgive me I was young, ignorant and arrogant at the time.

If Craig had the same level of communication and sticking to things agreed on as he has towards us (original pre orders) and the whole ICP2 crowd I'm not surprised at all it was a cock up. 

I can see how they are waiting for money, parts, a go ahead, a simple tidbit of information and at a certain point just thought "screw it". I'd be extremely surprised if there was any legal basis for Craig to pursue them, if only because he probably would have by now, instead of them just simply handing over a bunch of unanswered mails and unpaid, or paid much too late, invoices and shrugging. 

The whole process with GC where ED is in constant communication and was on the spot during the first runs to smooth out any problems was obviously the way to go and it's good that at least ED is capable of doing something a bit better every time.

On a side note. I said something similar ages ago but I'm more and more sure of it. Even though this must've been hell for ED and to an extent still is. If you look at how much he's experienced, how well he did under the enormous stress. Showing the ability to have helicopter view and come up with a plan and execute it meticiously and even though many people are unhappy they'd still jump in with ED on a new project in a heartbeat. This experience is going to benefit him for the rest of his life and I'd like to believe that in 20 years he'll look back and say it was well worth it although it sucked monkeyballs at the time. 

GOD YES!  Even if I never get a Pandora, I will throw money at WHATEVER ED does next. I am genuinely excited about what he might want to do next. Mind you i would rather throw the money in the trash if Craig is involved in any way greater than just reselling the systems in a shop.

I wouldn't want him to even resell them, he'll just start selling more then he has in stock immediately. Maybe a link to ED's shop and a couple of €€ taken of his huge debt to ED with every unit sold that comes in from his website.

 

[MrConfusion]

No, people don't know this is going on. They should be invited here to discuss for this to be more meaningfull.

ED stated on the front page that this will be sent out by email once we've pointed out any unfairness in it, if there is any. It is called 'trying to find a fair solition' not 'this is a fair solution', after all.

Oh, I remember that, but that won't bring them over to the forum to vote and/or discuss. It will simply be "yet another 'give us more money'"-email from "those Pandora guys".

GOD YES!  Even if I never get a Pandora, I will throw money at WHATEVER ED does next.

Oh dear... ED is the new Steve?

 

[Klumpen]

GOD YES!  Even if I never get a Pandora, I will throw money at WHATEVER ED does next.

Oh dear... ED is the new Steve?

Not as long as Ed still got ethics.

 

[rohezal]

I still think an email with this options would be the best solution. Maybe add 350 for a GHZ voucher to the 200€ (and maybe even to 50€ option???), so people can sell the vouchers. This would lower the profits of the Pandoras, but maybe you can sell some Pandoras with 50€ profit to people who would never had bought a Pandora. My main question is: how many CC Pandoras are left?

Get a "300€ for a instant Ghz Pandora" voucher. Get an additional "350€ for a Ghz Pandora voucher" you can sell.

Get a "200€ for a Ghz Pandora" voucher which includes long waiting.

Get a "100€ for a instant Classic Pandora" voucher. Get an additional "350€ for a Ghz Pandora voucher" you can sell.

Get a "50€ for a Classic Pandora" voucher which includes long waiting.

Get a Rebirth Pandora for free. Takes up to 4 years to deliver or will maybe never be delivered.

If you are honest and tell the people this 5 options (and the background story AND THAT THE PANDORAS ARE ON STOCK, include a photo of alot Pandoras at your shop in this mail), I think a lot will choose to pay 50€ to get at least something (they can sell it for 200€ or more, so it is ok).

People who take the 50€ version, can be funded, half with the donation fund of 1200€ and half with profits. This would mean 56 Pandoras can be delivered with the fund and some profits. This would be at least over 10% of the queue. I think most people will pay the 50€ to get something for "almost nothing". Maybe do a small motivation: Tell them how much profits you have currently, tell them how much donation are avaible. So:

650/25 = 27 CC will be instantly delievered to the first 27 people who pay 50€. Maybe just make 27 Units with a voucher purchase able. First come first serve. When you have enough money  to send  another 20 (or 10) CC Pandoras write an email again. I think people will buy it like "warme Semmeln".

 

[MrConfusion]

I still think an email with this options would be the best solution. Maybe add 350 for a GHZ voucher to the 200€ (and maybe even to 50€ option???), so people can sell the vouchers.

Sell the vouchers? I don't know. It might be OK if there were only a few queuers, but with hundreds of queuers, wouldn't it become pretty much a standard practice to get a voucher from ebay, then head over to EDs shop?

 

[rohezal]

Sell the vouchers? I don't know. It might be OK if there were only a few queuers, but with hundreds of queuers, wouldn't it become pretty much a standard practice to get a voucher from ebay, then head over to EDs shop?

Yes this would be a problem, if people who wanted to buy a Pandora get a cheap Pandora this way. On the other hand a lot of kids will not buy the Pandora for 500€ but for 349€, which are still 50€ profit for ED. To avoid this problem, you can let the people buy the 350€ vouchers from ED. So they get their vouchers, when they pay ED 350€. This would include the risk of not being able to sell the voucher, so around 90% less (just a guess)  vouchers would be handed out.

This would lower the profits of the Pandoras, but maybe you can sell some Pandoras with 50€ profit to people who would never had bought a Pandora.

 

[Grench]

Sell the vouchers? I don't know. It might be OK if there were only a few queuers, but with hundreds of queuers, wouldn't it become pretty much a standard practice to get a voucher from ebay, then head over to EDs shop?

Yes this would be a problem, if people who wanted to buy a Pandora get a cheap Pandora this way. On the other hand a lot of kids will not buy the Pandora for 500€ but for 349€, which are still 50€ profit for ED. To avoid this problem, you can let the people buy the 350€ vouchers from ED. So they get their vouchers, when they pay ED 350€. This would include the risk of not being able to sell the voucher, so around 90% less (just a guess)  vouchers would be handed out.

This would lower the profits of the Pandoras, but maybe you can sell some Pandoras with 50€ profit to people who would never had bought a Pandora.

So, excuse me if I'm over-simplifying...   You want ED to sell Craig's pre-orders a Pandora at or near cost AND gift/give Criag's pre-orders a giant voucher for future purchases in ED's store?

It seems that you're failing to realize that ED doesn't owe Craig's customers anything.  Him offering to sell Craig's customers a Pandora at a discount - let alone the steep discount he's offering - is huge in and of itself.

The money given to Craig is gone.  It no longer 'counts'.  No, it isn't fair.  That is between Craig and his pre-orders.

Any solution that requires ED to pay people from Craig's queue to take an ED created/stocked/sold unit is simple insanity.

Painful as it may be, those still in the queue need to either take a cross upgrade or write it off.

 

[xcen]

Seriously at this point I just wanna throw money at the problem until it disappears. Sign me up for a 300EU upgrade so I can finally use the device and forget about this whole nightmare.