Trying to find a fair solution

[ekianjo]

In my opinion, the important thing here is that ED should be able to finally stop having to think about how to clean up the past (Craig's mess)

 
This is not helping, saying it's craig's mess, because it isn't his fault only. I almost feel sorry for craig, he most be so paranoid by now (beyond even).
 
 

Feeling sorry for Craig? I thought i had heard everything in this world but someone always throws in a shovel to dig further down.

 

[rohezal]

ED, in dragonbox.de there are 92 rebirths listed as in stock. This units are assembled ready for sale right? And how much does a 600 mhz cost if those 200 you have around. The parts like case battery etc are 100€. How much is the mainboard and how much is the population of the mainboard at gc (roughly)? I am just curious .

 

[Blimp]

Feeling sorry for Craig? I thought i had heard everything in this world but someone always throws in a shovel to dig further down.

almost... I know it's hard to read. I'm not defending the guy, just saying you can't blame him for everything (a lot, nicely summed by Ed, but not everything) which some people tend to do here, even though Ed says they don't (always the nice guy). ((Some people on this forum remind me of Geert Wilders, if something is wrong it's the Islam's fault, only they replace Islam with craig.) This is an exaggeration, do not discuss here please.)

 

[rohezal]

Feeling sorry for Craig? I thought i had heard everything in this world but someone always throws in a shovel to dig further down.

He lost several 100K dollars. Someone told me that Craig said, it was an investment in the product (Pandora), and he hopes to become a millionair from the Pandora. Now he has very high debs, a lot of angry customers and a bad reputation. At least the high debts are not his fault. I am a sorry for him.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

Just lousy business tactics anyway you look at this. How can all this help the Pandora or the theoretical Pandora 2 sales wise?

What do you mean?


Should I just abandon all of the loyal customers and go on, even if they're not mine?

No ..although your customers are yours and your responsibility first and foremost I suppose. What I mean is that I believe the overall reputation of this device has been so marred that if something drastic is not done then I don't see much of a future for this device no matter how good it really is or can be.

I have said this so many times that 'word of mouth' is so important. There have been and still are just too many negative occurrences no matter who is the blame. There does not seem to be a solution that can really turn things around at this juncture.

Many people in this forum have told me you have a lot of money/reserve. I don't quite know how they know this exactly but if that is the case I guess there are no real worries for you here.

It's a mess and has been so for too long and that is a shame.

I do love the device though....I have had 4 of them and own a 1 gig now.

 

[MrConfusion]

Feeling sorry for Craig? I thought i had heard everything in this world but someone always throws in a shovel to dig further down.

You can feel sorry for someone (empathy) and disapprove of his actions at the same time.

Especially here as it is fairly easy to deduce how that person sunk.

In his own way, Craig tried to fix the situation by overselling. He seems to be a pretty extreme risk taker. And possibly not so great at bookkeeping.

So, I still feel sorry for him, I don't "almost feel sorry" for him, I feel "damn, no-one should have to go through that"-sorry for him, even though...

It IS Craigs fault that he told me and everyone else in 2008 that the unit is completely finished and ready for production.
It IS Craigs fault that he spent the money he took for the 1GHz Pandoras elsewhere, knowing he had to pay production costs for those.


It IS Craigs fault that he promised to raise sales for the 1GHz unit with excessive marketing and did nothing at all.


It IS Craigs fault that he told me he has 800 Preorders left and after enough money and / or Pandoras for refunds / delivery to be down to 150, he still has over 500 left.


It IS Craigs fault that he doesn't really try to help out here and seems to not care about his customers anymore.


It IS Craigs fault that he hasn't learned anything at all (if you take a look at how the iControlPad2 was)


It IS Craigs fault that he decided to not sell the WIZ or Caanoo and basically closed down his well-visited shop because he saw the WIZ was competition to the Pandora (he even tried to force ME to stop selling it... thank god I never did).

... admittedly that's one heck of a CV...

But to me this still doesn't mean he's "bad". It tells me that he is a risk taker who cannot handle extreme pressure and stress very well. Most of these are the result of that stress and stubbornly trying to keep control.

Handing the management and finally this list to ED basically meant he's left with nothing but the debts and has to swallow them. ED has hope of recovery. There is little to no hope for Craig of recovering the losses and in fact, there is danger of getting even more refund requests.

If he had succeeded you'd now be all over the place praising how clever he was. And what a business shark.

That's the way with risktakers.

Whatever, since he is not participating, this project will need to forget about him and resolve things without him.

If people want to go after him there are better forums.

 

[b_o_b]

Fair solution, people basically already lost their money and will get a very good deal to compensate the mess ED did not create. You can then get a Pandora for 100+X Euro (don't forget the VAT) already.  A very nice price for a classic and you should certainly get more on ebay, so IMO instant profit. 

That said, the situation sucks for folks that don't have the money to even pay for a classic. 

This comment from ED (see below) still seems to suggest there might be a possibility to receive a unit for less or even a refund (some people might want to wait another couple of years). Isn't it better to say that people have a limited time to accept the deal? Say 6 months or so? Then you can really focus on other stuff. 

Just a quick info about that:
It is NO replacement. I will still keep the survey results and follow those as good as possible, but I will point out that it's highly unlikely that everyone will get a unit in a reasonable time if ever.
So everyone who is ABLE to afford that upgrade price and is willing to support what we're doing here (despite his unlucky experience with Craig) should do it.
 

 

[EvilDragon]

Course, the lcd uncertainty is .. I'd almost want to wait a few weeks until that is sorted out (?) until posting this; can you really promise to _these_ subgroup of people that the lcd issue will be resolved right now?

You stole my thought.Please play it safe ED.

You should know by now that I'm always playing safe

As mentioned above, the customers can't place the order before the units are back in stock, so yeah, that means when the LCDs have been replaced as well.

ED, in dragonbox.de there are 92 rebirths listed as in stock. This units are assembled ready for sale right? And how much does a 600 mhz cost if those 200 you have around. The parts like case battery etc are 100€. How much is the mainboard and how much is the population of the mainboard at gc (roughly)? I am just curious .

 That number is not correct, but since I don't really get Rebirth orders, I didn't update the number there.

Mainboard population is about 40 EUR, the rest is parts, assembly, packaging, etc.

Feeling sorry for Craig? I thought i had heard everything in this world but someone always throws in a shovel to dig further down.

He lost several 100K dollars. Someone told me that Craig said, it was an investment in the product (Pandora), and he hopes to become a millionair from the Pandora. Now he has very high debs, a lot of angry customers and a bad reputation. At least the high debts are not his fault. I am a sorry for him.

 Well, yes and no.

He claims he has taken a mortgage, and used all his money, etc.

But is that real? We never saw an explanation where the 1GHz upgrade money, this makes me pretty sceptical about anything he said ever about money, any numbers, etc.

And to be honest - Craig seems incredibly smart for me. I cannot imagine he pulled a business which would leave him with a lot of debts.

His company, yes, but not himself personally.

So yes, I feel sorry for him as well for all the things that happened, but he pulled me in and now I am the one trying to solve everything for HIS customers as well whereas he didn't do much to help.

No ..although your customers are yours and your responsibility first and foremost I suppose. What I mean is that I believe the overall reputation of this device has been so marred that if something drastic is not done then I don't see much of a future for this device no matter how good it really is or can be.

I have said this so many times that 'word of mouth' is so important. There have been and still are just too many negative occurrences no matter who is the blame. There does not seem to be a solution that can really turn things around at this juncture.

Well, I got a pretty good reputation.

I've served all my customers, I've sold over 2000 new Pandoras and delivered them instantly, since the movement to Germany, the production works fine as well.

Even most of Craigs customers know that I am reliable and trustworthy.

A possible successor will be managed by me, it will have a new name and it will not be sold via paid preorders but from stock with instant delivery.

I don't think there's a big issue here.

Many people in this forum have told me you have a lot of money/reserve. I don't quite know how they know this exactly but if that is the case I guess there are no real worries for you here.

I don't have a lot in reserve, but since the plan was to have the full invested funds back on my account when 4000 units have been sold (and we're at 2700 right now), about half of the invested funds is currently on my account (which is 180K EUR).

This money is growing with sold Pandoras and it is already enough to fund the development of a potential successor.

But to me this still doesn't mean he's "bad". It tells me that he is a risk taker who cannot handle extreme pressure and stress very well. Most of these are the result of that stress and stubbornly trying to keep control.

Handing the management and finally this list to ED basically meant he's left with nothing but the debts and has to swallow them. ED has hope of recovery. There is little to no hope for Craig of recovering the losses and in fact, there is danger of getting even more refund requests.

I never said he's generally a bad person, and it's fine if he takes a risk.

However, he pulled other people into his risky business without letting them know.

Heck, I try to never take any risks, and Craig knew that.

But he also knew he needed me for the community... so he told me this is all perfectly safe and the device is ready for mass production and all units will be delivered christmas 2008.

That's something I really dislike, as I definitely wouldn't have taken any preorders before that REALLY was the case. 

If he had succeeded you'd now be all over the place praising how clever he was. And what a business shark.

That's the way with risktakers.

True, but they shouldn't pull in people who don't want to be part of that risk with blatant lies. 

 

[fusion_power]

It IS Craigs fault that he told me and everyone else in 2008 that the unit is completely finished and ready for production.

It IS Craigs fault that he spent the money he took for the 1GHz Pandoras elsewhere, knowing he had to pay production costs for those.

It IS Craigs fault that he promised to raise sales for the 1GHz unit with excessive marketing and did nothing at all.

It IS Craigs fault that he told me he has 800 Preorders left and after enough money and / or Pandoras for refunds / delivery to be down to 150, he still has over 500 left.

It IS Craigs fault that he doesn't really try to help out here and seems to not care about his customers anymore.

It IS Craigs fault that he hasn't learned anything at all (if you take a look at how the iControlPad2 was)

It IS Craigs fault that he decided to not sell the WIZ or Caanoo and basically closed down his well-visited shop because he saw the WIZ was competition to the Pandora (he even tried to force ME to stop selling it... thank god I never did).

This remembers me onto something... ^^

https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZomwVcGt0LE?feature=oembed
IMHO Craig is not a person who like to PLAN stuff long in advance and especialy does not count in the worst possible things that can happen. It's always good to hope the best but you also should count onto the worst so nothing can surprise you. Be prepared as much as possible in advance.

 

[ngrcat]

When the survey came I originally chose the 150 EUR option, I believe, but since then I got bit cash and seeing the situation is as shitty as it is, I was already planning on changing to the original 271 EUR option. So yeah, when it's available I will take the 300 EUR upgrade.

 

[ZXDunny]

Now he has very high debs

I knew it was stressful, but this? She's on drugs now? Sheesh. You see how it affects people.

D.

 

[Widget9k]

Thanks, ED, for trying to make the best of a bad situation. March '09 preorder (Craig) here, on-board with the 300 EUR upgrade option. I understand the POV of folks who're upset that the upgrade cost is higher than our original pre-order cost, but we should just consider that money lost. Given the nature of the project and the pre-order process, I had always considered it a bit of a gamble.

 

[skeezix]

Going off topic again here, but we all love a good bashing, apparently..

Spoiler

Craig is not a bad guy; he is an asshole though

Considering his lack of ability to answer emails or postings, his ability to lie through his teeth (say one thing knowing another), or his ability to mean one thing then change overnight (I'm sure he meant to make iCP2 videos like he promised, then just didn't bother at all.)  All of this sort of thing is enormously bad -- taking peoples money with promise for X and Y, and then never getting around to those things. And of course, the main thing -- blamign everyone else for anything that comes through his head. You can forgive someone a few misteps.. everyone makes them, people get busy.. life happens; but its year after year of w-t-hell? When peopel are trying to help you, and you're still biting them, or lieing or conveniently ignoring emails etc.. its massive passive agressiveness.

We were all staunch defenders of his once, but he's bitten everyone who comes anywhere near him, hundreds of times; only so many razer cuts you can take, right?

He doesn't seem a bad guy; he does seem a funny guy; never give him your money. (again)

Opposite site -- ED; you can judge his business practices on its own, but you can also see.. tries like hell to make up for team mate problems; tries like hell to recover a situation; answers questions when asked, best he can (sure, gets behind once in awhile, only so many hands right?); posts updates and reports, even with private data of his.

Judge as you see fit, but .. that _honesty_ is worth handing some $$ over to.

jeff

 

[MrConfusion]

During this day I've pretty much resolved what I'm going to do:

Classic now, for 100 (partially because for the next few months our money will be tight, it will be better at the earliest next summer).

1 GHz later, if I feel like it (and it is more likely than not that I will), for 350.

And I feel this is an OK deal. Sure, had I understood the meaning of the survey correctly I would have chosen the 150 option, but life sucks and don't we know it. I should have entered the forums first and clicked later... Then again, depending on how this mess gets sorted out, this alternative could be quicker. And really, like many, I just want this to be over and done with already...

Like I said, it would sweeten the deal if there was some discount on the hypothetical P2 instead of the 1 GHz. That 600 MHz is probably OK for me for quite a while... If there's anything I'd like to see in ED's proposal, that's the one addition. It doesn't need to be a big discount and it's obvious the exact discount cannot be specified yet.

ED: How about the guarantee etc. for Classic? Are there enough spare components to support it? It has a new case and LCD, right? Only motherboard is "Classic"? When can we start placing our orders?-)

 

[WizardStan]

Maybe someone has a rich uncle who would like to donate 150K EUR for this project, then you'd all get the unit right away, but I wouldn't bet on it.

DraStic seems to be selling very very well on the Google play store. I'm sure Exophase didn't have any plans for that money.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

Course, the lcd uncertainty is .. I'd almost want to wait a few weeks until that is sorted out (?) until posting this; can you really promise to _these_ subgroup of people that the lcd issue will be resolved right now?

You stole my thought.
Please play it safe ED.

You should know by now that I'm always playing safe


As mentioned above, the customers can't place the order before the units are back in stock, so yeah, that means when the LCDs have been replaced as well.

ED, in dragonbox.de there are 92 rebirths listed as in stock. This units are assembled ready for sale right? And how much does a 600 mhz cost if those 200 you have around. The parts like case battery etc are 100€. How much is the mainboard and how much is the population of the mainboard at gc (roughly)? I am just curious .

 
That number is not correct, but since I don't really get Rebirth orders, I didn't update the number there.


Mainboard population is about 40 EUR, the rest is parts, assembly, packaging, etc.

Feeling sorry for Craig? I thought i had heard everything in this world but someone always throws in a shovel to dig further down.

He lost several 100K dollars. Someone told me that Craig said, it was an investment in the product (Pandora), and he hopes to become a millionair from the Pandora. Now he has very high debs, a lot of angry customers and a bad reputation. At least the high debts are not his fault. I am a sorry for him.

 
Well, yes and no.


He claims he has taken a mortgage, and used all his money, etc.


But is that real? We never saw an explanation where the 1GHz upgrade money, this makes me pretty sceptical about anything he said ever about money, any numbers, etc.


And to be honest - Craig seems incredibly smart for me. I cannot imagine he pulled a business which would leave him with a lot of debts.


His company, yes, but not himself personally.


So yes, I feel sorry for him as well for all the things that happened, but he pulled me in and now I am the one trying to solve everything for HIS customers as well whereas he didn't do much to help.

No ..although your customers are yours and your responsibility first and foremost I suppose. What I mean is that I believe the overall reputation of this device has been so marred that if something drastic is not done then I don't see much of a future for this device no matter how good it really is or can be.


I have said this so many times that 'word of mouth' is so important. There have been and still are just too many negative occurrences no matter who is the blame. There does not seem to be a solution that can really turn things around at this juncture.

Well, I got a pretty good reputation.


I've served all my customers, I've sold over 2000 new Pandoras and delivered them instantly, since the movement to Germany, the production works fine as well.


Even most of Craigs customers know that I am reliable and trustworthy.


A possible successor will be managed by me, it will have a new name and it will not be sold via paid preorders but from stock with instant delivery.


I don't think there's a big issue here.

Many people in this forum have told me you have a lot of money/reserve. I don't quite know how they know this exactly but if that is the case I guess there are no real worries for you here.

I don't have a lot in reserve, but since the plan was to have the full invested funds back on my account when 4000 units have been sold (and we're at 2700 right now), about half of the invested funds is currently on my account (which is 180K EUR).


This money is growing with sold Pandoras and it is already enough to fund the development of a potential successor.

But to me this still doesn't mean he's "bad". It tells me that he is a risk taker who cannot handle extreme pressure and stress very well. Most of these are the result of that stress and stubbornly trying to keep control.


Handing the management and finally this list to ED basically meant he's left with nothing but the debts and has to swallow them. ED has hope of recovery. There is little to no hope for Craig of recovering the losses and in fact, there is danger of getting even more refund requests.

I never said he's generally a bad person, and it's fine if he takes a risk.


However, he pulled other people into his risky business without letting them know.


Heck, I try to never take any risks, and Craig knew that.


But he also knew he needed me for the community... so he told me this is all perfectly safe and the device is ready for mass production and all units will be delivered christmas 2008.


That's something I really dislike, as I definitely wouldn't have taken any preorders before that REALLY was the case. 

If he had succeeded you'd now be all over the place praising how clever he was. And what a business shark.


That's the way with risktakers.

True, but they shouldn't pull in people who don't want to be part of that risk with blatant lies. 

I am happy everything seems to be going positive for you. It just seems like you are never totally in the clear here...not even for a moment do things ever seem to run smoothly as of yet for you.

As long as you are happy and content with the way things are panning out then it does not matter what anyone else thinks or says about this situation I suppose.

I was told it takes the average business 7 years to get off the ground and run efficiently.. so best of luck to you 

It would be shocking to me if you ever endeavored in producing a Pandora 2.

 

[mcobit]

Isn't Exo one of the investors already?


Might be a good move to secure his funds


Edit: After thinking a bit more about this... How cool would that be?


A jointventure from people who are able to create popular and great software and people who can build the perfect hardware for that.

 

[Timstertoo]

During this day I've pretty much resolved what I'm going to do:

Classic now, for 100 (partially because for the next few months our money will be tight, it will be better at the earliest next summer).

1 GHz later, if I feel like it (and it is more likely than not that I will), for 350.

And I feel this is an OK deal. Sure, had I understood the meaning of the survey correctly I would have chosen the 150 option, but life sucks and don't we know it. I should have entered the forums first and clicked later... Then again, depending on how this mess gets sorted out, this alternative could be quicker. And really, like many, I just want this to be over and done with already...

Like I said, it would sweeten the deal if there was some discount on the hypothetical P2 instead of the 1 GHz. That 600 MHz is probably OK for me for quite a while... If there's anything I'd like to see in ED's proposal, that's the one addition. It doesn't need to be a big discount and it's obvious the exact discount cannot be specified yet.

ED: How about the guarantee etc. for Classic? Are there enough spare components to support it? It has a new case and LCD, right? Only motherboard is "Classic"? When can we start placing our orders?-)

Although a nice discount on a new device, assuming it's a clamshell with a keyboard and the gaming controls, would be something I'd go for. A device produced by ED with no Craig involved that is. I don't think ED should carry over this mess to a new project. It should end here and the new project should start without any history looming over it.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

During this day I've pretty much resolved what I'm going to do:

Classic now, for 100 (partially because for the next few months our money will be tight, it will be better at the earliest next summer).

1 GHz later, if I feel like it (and it is more likely than not that I will), for 350.

And I feel this is an OK deal. Sure, had I understood the meaning of the survey correctly I would have chosen the 150 option, but life sucks and don't we know it. I should have entered the forums first and clicked later... Then again, depending on how this mess gets sorted out, this alternative could be quicker. And really, like many, I just want this to be over and done with already...

Like I said, it would sweeten the deal if there was some discount on the hypothetical P2 instead of the 1 GHz. That 600 MHz is probably OK for me for quite a while... If there's anything I'd like to see in ED's proposal, that's the one addition. It doesn't need to be a big discount and it's obvious the exact discount cannot be specified yet.

ED: How about the guarantee etc. for Classic? Are there enough spare components to support it? It has a new case and LCD, right? Only motherboard is "Classic"? When can we start placing our orders?-)

Although a nice discount on a new device, assuming it's a clamshell with a keyboard and the gaming controls, would be something I'd go for. A device produced by ED with no Craig involved that is. I don't think ED should carry over this mess to a new project. It should end here and the new project should start without any history looming over it.

So let's see here...new device new name, start from scratch,,,clean slate as they say. Might be costly to do so. In my opinion if this Pandora mess is ever entirely solved the owner should take a long,long reprieve  B)

Almost seems like one of them has already.

 

[Grench]

Frankly, it's 'tough love' time.

Craig's pre-orders who cover ED's queue to queue upgrade costs are a non-issue.

Craig's pre-orders who insist on ED providing them a unit at something less than cost - the difference made by donations, should be funded from those who are willing to pay the most down in order to maximize the donation effects.

The sad thing is, anyone who's still sitting waiting for their pre-order with Craig's store to be magically fulfilled via the kindness of strangers (donations) and/or ED's good intentions...  you folks need to step up and help us (donors & ED) help them by closing the gap on the upgrade costs.