The Sun - Animal Cruity Campaign

[Hanz™]

animals can think in almost the same way as humans just not as advanced, they still think, they dream, lots of things, even fish think, why do you think sea bass (fish) are clever at getting away from nets & why sqiuds are as clever as a dog? & an elephant has batter memory than a human??? lemmings are very thick though, they just jump off cliffs for no reason so don't count lemmings!

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They have basic reasoning abilities yes, but most are nowhere near the level of humans.

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Man this guys is definitely BB.

 

[Mark]

I'm aware of how dogs learn though association, but there's one thing that I never understood.

My dog, Mindy, is rather clever. She picks up on word associations like 'ball' 'goose' and 'elephant' very quickly, and will choose each one when asked. Nothing unusual there, but she has learnt three tricks that no-one has ever taught her.

1) 'Other Paw': We taught Mindy to give us her paw. We used the same paw all the time, and she learnt it after a while. One day we started saying 'Other Paw' and without pointing or making any suggestion that we wanted the other one (other than the verbal cue) she removed one paw and gave us her other. She must of had a quick thought process, which told her that we wanted the paw, but this one wasn't acceptable.

2) 'Open the door': Yep, Mindy can open the back door. She obvouisly learnt this by watching us, but it's still weird how she learnt to associate it with us saying it. Must of heard us giving her a command, and thought to do something along with it.

3) 'Hug': Again, Mindy was never taught anything along these lines. But I swear, If you sit on the floor and say 'Hug', she'll put her paws on your shoulders. I have no idea how she ever thought of doing this, and it baffles me.

People can say it's anthromorphism, but this is clearly a kind of intelligence that goes above that of simple processes simular to those of a robot.

 

[fishybawb]

lemmings are very thick though, they just jump off cliffs for no reason so don't count lemmings!

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Maybe it's to control their population. In that case, it's pretty smart and us humans should probably follow suit. You first!

 

[Nova]

I'm aware of how dogs learn though association, but there's one thing that I never understood.

My dog, Mindy, is rather clever. She picks up on word associations like 'ball' 'goose' and 'elephant' very quickly, and will choose each one when asked. Nothing unusual there, but she has learnt three tricks that no-one has ever taught her.

1) 'Other Paw': We taught Mindy to give us her paw. We used the same paw all the time, and she learnt it after a while. One day we started saying 'Other Paw' and without pointing or making any suggestion that we wanted the other one (other than the verbal cue) she removed one paw and gave us her other. She must of had a quick thought process, which told her that we wanted the paw, but this one wasn't acceptable.

2) 'Open the door': Yep, Mindy can open the back door. She obvouisly learnt this by watching us, but it's still weird how she learnt to associate it with us saying it. Must of heard us giving her a command, and thought to do something along with it.

3) 'Hug': Again, Mindy was never taught anything along these lines. But I swear, If you sit on the floor and say 'Hug', she'll put her paws on your shoulders. I have no idea how she ever thought of doing this, and it baffles me.

People can say it's anthromorphism, but this is clearly a kind of intelligence that goes above that of simple processes simular to those of a robot.

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She sounds lovely.

 

[Mark]

lemmings are very thick though, they just jump off cliffs for no reason so don't count lemmings!

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Maybe it's to control their population. In that case, it's pretty smart and us humans should probably follow suit. You first!

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Nah. Norwegian Lemmings are often led to believe that there is land, and a better chance of food just a short distance away, which is why they jump to their untimely deaths.

So in a way they are controlling their population because of over-crowding, but only because they are crap at judging distances. What a rubbish reason to die.

 

[lubidog]

Klown, I was sort of agreeing with a lot you were saying...

But people who dismiss dogs as just "pavlolvian" reflexes etc have never had a dog.

I have my Mut, and sponser a couple of dogs via the Dogs Trust (formally the national Canine Defence League). This is a charity which (unlike the RSPCA) never puts a healthy dog down. Anyway, I have been to various Dogs Trust events, and anyone who witness a working dog would never be so blase about what dogs can and cannot understand. To see a dog for the deaf in action is astonishing. And the intellegence of a working sheep dog is a wonderful thing!

Nope, dogs cats budgies, whatever you have, can be loved as much as a human can. And when that love is attacked, then 6 months jail is laughable. And that is what we are talking about here.

But in blighty it goes further, the problem is not that these Chav bastards are doing this particular thing, but that they are running around uncontrolled and unafraid to do whatever they like. Anyone who underestimates the problem, hasn't lived through it. I heard a liberal MP on five live (in Germany I listen to this station constantly!), who lived in a flat in Islington, dismiss so easily a caller who was having Chav problems, and telling the caller to try to reason and get to understand the Chav family's problems.

I could bore you with the horror of what we went through, but it wasn't as bad as some others, nowhere near.

SO what's a burnt cat worth? A generation of anarchy? Or a complacent ego massaging now?

 

[PinkSpider]

I agree.

 

[Jarska333]

Oh, now I get it. Blimey. :huh:

You people were comparing animals to chavs.

Should chavs have the same rights as humans? :unsure:

 

[deadlychicken22]

I'm not sure about the exact scientific explanations for the intelligence and personalities of dogs, but it seems to me that dogs have some sort of "soul". Some sort of thought on an emotional level other than instincts, although much of what they do is instinct. And, while they may not be as advanced as us, I think it is terrible that people think they can treat pets that way. I don't mind if someone hits there pet if it does something wrong unless it is done in a way that injures the pet, but I agree that killing your pets is terrible. However, I think people need to get priorities straight. Although Klown is very blunt about what he says, I agree with much of what he says. When do we draw the line? Are we going to make it a crime to kill bacteria, because, afterall, they are alive. Will it be a crime to kill archea? Will we have to just watch mosquitos as they suck our blood, unable to kill them because it is against the law? Animal cruelty is a terrible thing and should be stopped, but there are many terrible things going on in our world that should be stopped. What about abortion? When in the human reproductive process is a fertalized egg considered a human? As of now, not until they're born, but from science we know that they are "alive" before that. And, many of you may ask why killing a human is worse than killing an animal, well, the answer isn't an exact science. The majority of people in the world value human lives much more than the lives of animals. If they valued animals over humans, our laws would be much different. Laws change with cultures and what is acceptable to them.

 

[declaration]

People need to stop differentiating based on intelligence. 'Intelligence' is highly overrated.
Loyalty and the ability to care for others are clearly more important. Animals are in my opinion capable of this.

Many disabled people are not capable of reasoning etc but we don't torture or eat them, do we?

And I hate the hypocrisy of people who claim to be against animal cruelty, and yet eat dead animals, who were bred and murdered for you to eat. I know people who were brought up in countryside farming environments but had enough character to stand up against unnecessary and unnatural animal slaughter. You wouldnt like it if someone ate your pets.

And I wish people would stop categorising and dismissing whole groups of people as 'chavs'. Its this kind of unnecessary distinction which leads to much of the evil done in the world.

 

[geekylad]

People need to stop differentiating based on intelligence. 'Intelligence' is highly overrated.
Loyalty and the ability to care for others are clearly more important. Animals are in my opinion capable of this.

Many disabled people are not capable of reasoning etc but we don't torture or eat them, do we?

And I hate the hypocrisy of people who claim to be against animal cruelty, and yet eat dead animals, who were bred and murdered for you to eat. I know people who were brought up in countryside farming environments but had enough character to stand up against unnecessary and unnatural animal slaughter. You wouldnt like it if someone ate your pets.

And I wish people would stop categorising and dismissing whole groups of people as 'chavs'. Its this kind of unnecessary distinction which leads to much of the evil done in the world.

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good point

 

[Rico]

ANIMALS ARE NOT ON THE SAME LEVEL AS HUMAN BEINGS. DO NOT EVEN IMPLY SUCH DANGEROUS RUBBISH.

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Has anyone got that source that showed how much more money the RSPCA gets than the NSPCC?

Personally I think The Sun has done something pathetic here. Their sales go down, The Mirror is planning something, whatever, so they find the first 'outrage' they can get their hands on, plaster their front pages with horrific images of animal cruelty, and launch a 'Campaign' to boost their PR. Just like their knee-jerk reaction to Pedos that led to mob rule and houses burning down. At least some good comes out of it but there's a slimy reason behind it all.

Of course I'm against animal cruelty but I think there are far more important things to spend money on, like helping people get their lives back after Katrina or helping the NSPCC to rescue children who are beaten daily or live in filthy conditions, right here in England. Pity people fall over themselves to support anything involving cute animals.

 

[Mark]

People need to stop differentiating based on intelligence. 'Intelligence' is highly overrated.
Loyalty and the ability to care for others are clearly more important. Animals are in my opinion capable of this.

Many disabled people are not capable of reasoning etc but we don't torture or eat them, do we?

And I hate the hypocrisy of people who claim to be against animal cruelty, and yet eat dead animals, who were bred and murdered for you to eat. I know people who were brought up in countryside farming environments but had enough character to stand up against unnecessary and unnatural animal slaughter. You wouldnt like it if someone ate your pets.

And I wish people would stop categorising and dismissing whole groups of people as 'chavs'. Its this kind of unnecessary distinction which leads to much of the evil done in the world.

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Eating animals doesn't have to be cruel, but the kind of society in which we live makes the conditions so disgusting. It's not right, and no amount of profit should ever be put before something with reasonable awareness, such as a chicken.

I think people can be aganist animal cruelty and still eat meat, as it's perfectly natural to do so. It's just the horrible bit in between that they are inadvertedly supporting.

 

[Klown]

People need to stop differentiating based on intelligence. 'Intelligence' is highly overrated.
Loyalty and the ability to care for others are clearly more important. Animals are in my opinion capable of this.

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Clearly more important in idealism land. The real world is a cold and dead place my friend where you need to be intelligent and strong to survive.

And I hate the hypocrisy of people who claim to be against animal cruelty, and yet eat dead animals, who were bred and murdered for you to eat. I know people who were brought up in countryside farming environments but had enough character to stand up against unnecessary and unnatural animal slaughter. You wouldnt like it if someone ate your pets.

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So you can't be against sadistic abuse of animals and eat meat? Oh let me throw some points based on that logic on the pile too! I hate the hypocrasy of people who pretend to be against animal cruelty whilst they use vaccinations which have only been made possible by animal research. Fucking diabetics, you bastard sadists!

Many disabled people are not capable of reasoning etc but we don't torture or eat them, do we?

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Probably because people who are related to them/love them are sentient.

 

[Goity]

Don't be stupid, everyone knows that the chicken we eat's never been near a farmyard.

 

[declaration]

People need to stop differentiating based on intelligence. 'Intelligence' is highly overrated.
Loyalty and the ability to care for others are clearly more important. Animals are in my opinion capable of this.

​

Clearly more important in idealism land. The real world is a cold and dead place my friend where you need to be intelligent and strong to survive.

And I hate the hypocrisy of people who claim to be against animal cruelty, and yet eat dead animals, who were bred and murdered for you to eat. I know people who were brought up in countryside farming environments but had enough character to stand up against unnecessary and unnatural animal slaughter. You wouldnt like it if someone ate your pets.

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So you can't be against sadistic abuse of animals and eat meat? Oh let me throw some points based on that logic on the pile too! I hate the hypocrasy of people who pretend to be against animal cruelty whilst they use vaccinations which have only been made possible by animal research. Fucking diabetics, you bastard sadists!

Eating meat is totally and utterly unnecessary and the way it is done is totally unnatural. The meat industry carries out animal abuse every single day. Eating meat depends on murder. How much more abusive can you get?

Many disabled people are not capable of reasoning etc but we don't torture or eat them, do we?

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Probably because people who are related to them/love them are sentient.

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what about someone you don't know? or someone who wants to die? Why not eat them?

Also, whats natural and what's not natural is very debatable. Many things can be argued as 'natural' but are clearly morally wrong and in many cases are illegal.

 

[iignotus]

Eating meat is totally and utterly unnecessary

Meat naturally contains complete proteins. Vegetables do not, save legumes and tofu. It is much more logical and healthful to obtain them from meat. Also, opposed to veganism, milk (real milk) is necessary for bone and nervous system development in children.

I have also seen cases of people twisting words in this useless melange of a thread, which just makes you look like a stupid dumbass.

Furthermore, PETA is known for their (sometimes successful) assasination attempts of humans who conduct animal testing. Anyone with enough sense will understand the gravity of that sentence. They furthermore contributed more than $45,000 to the defense of a convicted arsonist who destroyed the MSU research labs.

PETA also kills the large majority of animals that are accepted into its Shelter Service (I would say 80% is a large majority, no?).

PETA also put their efforts into saving animals instead of humans during hurricane Katrina.

PETA also set up an elaborate exhibit that mocks the tragic happenings of the Holocaust, and insults and degrades Jews.

PETA also contributes to the ELF (Earth Liberation Front), which is a confirmed terrorist organisation (mainly due to their arson attack from 1998).

Many people need to reassess their beliefs instead of clasping on to an politically and socially ignorant voice.

 

[lubidog]

Yes, but the topic is about making senseless cruelty against so-called pets more punishable.

Rico, yes-there are lots of issues that need to be addressed in the world. But why should we say "this issue can be ignored, and this can't". The political party we elect should be able to cope with all issues.

It really grinds my gears when somebody responds to an issue I care for by saying "yes, but this issue is more important", then probably just forgets about all issues. If everyone in the world only focused on the same point, we would be in a mess.

I work for various charity events, I donate a percentage of my wage to various charities. One of them is the nspcc, others are animal charities. Why should I not do this? I love animals.

Anyone who has suffered from the mindless, directionless, thoughtless group of youngsters, that are the product of parents who clearly had no love for their kids is entitled to name this group, and chav is just a generic term. Stupid comment, how am I causing evil in this world, compared to a group of kids that so terrorised our lives, that I am living abroad to get away from them?????




This topic was about these 'chavs' getting away with cruelty and being unpunished. Stop using the word 'cute'. You are just siding with these evil people. And this debate has nothing to do with 'activists' like Peta or ALA.

And eating meat is not murder. It's the circle of life. We are all creatures that feed on others. But we should treat the animals we eat with dignity. Do you expect my dog to be a veggie? Would you label a fox as a murderer? If you choose to not eat meat, that's great. But if I choose to follow my nature, and eat meat that has been humanely killed after being looked after, then that is my choose.

Like I said, the man I knew that respected life, loved animals and knew more about them than anyone I ever knew was a gamekeeper. Who the hell is going to do his job if city dwelling veggies take over the countryside (i am in a stereotyping mood...)? A quango? An MP???

 

[geekylad]

I don't agree with any animal activists & the way they carry out the protests, I also don't agree with animal testing at all or the few places that kill the meat we eat in a horrible way (which is illegal), There are a lot of points to this topic but you have to remember this thread was about the animal campaign, I looked on the suns website (I go there instead of buying = sun do not profit from me!) & the police have arrested the evil evil people that hung that dog from the lead on a tree, The law has also now been changed to up to 2 years in jail (instead of 6 months), A lifetime ban on keeping animals if found guilty of animal abuse & up to £20,000 fine (was £5000 before) so something good has came from the suns "ratings stunt", I feel I helped the animals when I signed the petition & not helping the sun at all as I used the website instead of buying the paper as they ain't getting my money!!

 

[Klown]

I also don't agree with animal testing at all

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Yeah because it hasn't been responsible for curing diseases and creating very important drugs. Fuck you, for putting the rights of jimmy the rat ahead of those with crippling illnesses. You selfish cunt.

Eating meat is totally and utterly unnecessary and the way it is done is totally unnatural. The meat industry carries out animal abuse every single day. Eating meat depends on murder. How much more abusive can you get?

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Your ignoring my point. Besides, without meat we have trouble feeding the population, I know you don't like it, but tough shit. Maybe in idealism world when all of the worlds problems are gone, we won't need meat.. Fuck, we need to create GM crops to be able feed the world at a sustainable rate. Do you know how bad soya destroys massive areas of land?

Another point I find interesting is if we stopped farming these animals, we would just stop having them. It's far to dangerous for the ecosystem to let the things free so we'd end up slaughtering the majority of them.