The Gp2x Is Dead!

[nubie]

High-quality, sharp sprite data could be upscaled via hq2x or hq4x before resampling down to native resolution. This approach is used by most PC emulators today - it is quite costly CPU-wise, but I'm sure Pandora could do it for 16-bit consoles at least.


I am afraid I don't agree, I think the first picture looks better, but they are close.

That is exactly my point, as soon as you start mucking with the data it doesn't look like the original game, and you aren't seeing it as it should be.

As for your comments on the "tv scan resolution", I am pretty sure that the phosphor coating is pretty much even, so if your smallest common unit is a single molecule you must be thinking of the shadow mask. Now that I think of it a standard shadow mask is made of circular pixels in a tri- pattern, thus the image is "blended" to a certain extent. Although Sony Trinitron technology uses a different method to display pixels that results in a much sharper image.

My point is simply that the data is available in digital format (however it was delivered in the past), so the most accurate (and highest quality) representation of the data is pixel for pixel, the unit they have in common.

In practice I usually like to see a precise 2x2 upscale, which does indeed result in a "blocky appearance" on displays with very low DPI, or displays that are very close to your face. Since these games are not designed to be played on very large displays I am perfectly happy to watch them in a slightly smaller area of the screen if it preserves the 2x2 format, and the display is still so small I am sure I won't have a problem with it.

As for all of this resource intensive blurring and re-sampling, that is great and I can usually strike a balance where I keep the aspect ratio intended and can maximize the viewable area with a pillarbox or letterbox. However, on a mobile platform such as this it might not have the power to do this while emulating the sound and other special effects the game uses, this is why it is important for those games to offer a 2x2 mode so that we can play those games without a low quality re-scale. I find that mostly the games that we want to play stress emulators quite hard, this system might not have the power to fully re-sample everything and do the emulation full speed, or it might but at the expense of battery power, and we want to clock the unit back and stress it less.

I don't know how many 2D emulated games I was planning on playing, I would hope that any 3D games are capable of rendering in native resolution, minus a pillarbox area so they maintain the correct aspect ratio.

I am all for having these modes in an emulator, but they should come after the per-pixel modes, and the choice should always be for the end user to decide. And not the default setting.

I am glad the pandora will have so many keys, as it will make it possible to set most options in game without needing to navigate the menus. Also I look forward to having extra data in the pillarbox area, things like fps and cpu usage would be neat.

 

[DaveC]

I've told you this before but you didn't really believe me, I'm kinda surprised since you know more about electronics than I do.. but I'll repeat myself. NTSC CRT TV sets are not magical analog devices that have variable pixel sizes. There is a fixed number of phosphors, and unlike decent CRT monitors there are neither a lot of them nor are they as square. Now it's true that there's a 1:1 ratio for scanlines for all game platforms to TVs (that I know of), but the scanlines themselves are being filtered across a fixed number of pixels in a higher (but not that much higher) resolution. There's also all kinds of other artifacts between the DAC on the platform, the kind of cables used, and the NTSC stuff going on.

Yes you have dot pitch that is fixed. The dot pitch is higher than pixels being drawn though for the old systems. Yes this drawing of pixels over phosphors kind of softens the edges a bit. Comparing CRTs to LCDs is kind of getting a bit off the point though. The point was how game emus will look on a 480x272 screen for the "Bollux" handheld (or PSP) vs GP2X. And the fact remains that they will still be sharper on the GP2X screen (or any 320x240) without all of the scaling and filtering that will end up on the others.

The NTSC thing is also true for old systems due to the lousy video outputs like RF or composite. In my case though I had all of those old systems (SNES, Genesis etc) connected by custom RGB cables on an RGB monitor like the ones found in arcades. That eliminated all of those blurr issues with RF etc. It still left the black spaces between scanlines and rounded phosphor pixels obviously. It looked pretty good. In those cases the closest match is still 1:1 without bilinear filtering for handhelds. The bilinear filtering is TOO much and gives TOO soft an image to me.

The Picodrive scaling looks nicer probably because it is only doing it in one direction, doesn't ruin contrast, and doesn't blend in all directions like the filters do.

 

[palmertech]

Everybody is arguing about how it "should" look, and arguing that the HQ2X makes it look "Not authentic". Hell, it looks CRAZY nice to me, I mean, come one, if you want the "authentic" experiance, you should not be playing it with a different control scheme on a 4.3 inch lcd screen! Filters FTW!

 

[jmetal88]

Everybody is arguing about how it "should" look, and arguing that the HQ2X makes it look "Not authentic". Hell, it looks CRAZY nice to me, I mean, come one, if you want the "authentic" experiance, you should not be playing it with a different control scheme on a 4.3 inch lcd screen! Filters FTW!

It looked so nice to me that I had to try it out. Turns out ZSNES uses it. I downloaded it and a PD rom just so I could check the difference, and WOW! That's so freaking easy on the eyes, and not blurry at all! Go HQ2X!

EDIT: When I say ZSNES uses it, I mean it's an option. It's turned off by default.

 

[WizardStan]

1 Well the SNES didn't really "upscale" on a regular CRT. It output a different horizontal scan timing that actually elongated the pixels. You can't do that on an LCD. There you have to do all kinds of doubling, averaging, filtering, etc and it doesn't look very good at all. Also none of the old systems used interlace mode (480) that you mention (except for 1 or 2 games like 2 player split screen on Sonic 2). Most all ran in non-interlace mode that was half the vertical resolution.

Then you're still changing the horizontal from 224 to 240 rows. Or 288 on PAL systems. The video processor is still doing some scaling on it's way out to the TV.
QUOTE

2 You are now talking about displaying emulators on big TV sets. That is something totally different. I am not talking about 6' screens but 3.5" ones. Nothing there will look like "duplo blocks" unless you are scaling up a GB game. I have run emulators on PC monitors and big TVs and without filtering they are sharp but a blocky mess. With filtering they look fuzzy. Which is better there? I don't like either, which is why I don't play retro games on big TV screens.


Aye, that was entirely directed at Nubie and his 30' projector screen. I agree, on anything a few inches across, it doesn't matter, nor even on a regular TV sitting 8 feet away, but on my 20" monitor when I'm barely a foot away, without filtering the images are way too sharp for my liking. There are some filters (bilinear for example, as you say, or 2xSal) that make the images look fuzzy, but others, like Super Eagle or the HQX algorithms actually produce a more rounded, organic image that I personally find much more appealing in such situations.
But again, it's all personal opinion. Some like the sharp images, others prefer the rounded.
In the interest of peace, I present seam carving. Imagine an emulator that could do this in real time. No fuzziness!

 

[Exophase]

Then you're still changing the horizontal from 224 to 240 rows. Or 288 on PAL systems. The video processor is still doing some scaling on it's way out to the TV.

That part isn't true. A scanline is a scanline and the synchronization between the console and the TV in this regard tends to be something well built into the design of the video subsystem. Any scanlines that the TV shows that aren't part of the active display area of the console will be a particular solid color (often the background color) or a fixed color like black. If you play platforms like say, Sega Master System, that only had 192 scanlines, the result was something highly letterboxed. Still, it's not as if all NTSC TVs actually display 240 scanlines, in fact, I think most of them display quite a bit less, and anything over 224 is basically considered extra.

In the interest of peace, I present seam carving. Imagine an emulator that could do this in real time. No fuzziness!


You're joking, right? I think that would make almost any game completely unplayable....

 

[WizardStan]

In the interest of peace, I present seam carving. Imagine an emulator that could do this in real time. No fuzziness!


You're joking, right? I think that would make almost any game completely unplayable....

Well, at the time I was joking, but now that I've thought about it, I think it would be a very interesting experiment. Not for the Pandora, of course; computing the paths in realtime is quite computationally expensive, probably beyond the Pandora to do at the same time as the actual emulation, but an interesting academic experiment nonetheless. It might make it unplayable, or at least distorted. Then again, it might solve the 4:3 vs 16:9 problems quite nicely.

 

[Tinnus]

Well, at the time I was joking, but now that I've thought about it, I think it would be a very interesting experiment. Not for the Pandora, of course; computing the paths in realtime is quite computationally expensive, probably beyond the Pandora to do at the same time as the actual emulation, but an interesting academic experiment nonetheless. It might make it unplayable, or at least distorted. Then again, it might solve the 4:3 vs 16:9 problems quite nicely.

From what it understood, since the algorithm for finding the minimal-energy seam is DP, and I believe it (or some steps) has to be recalculated for each resized unit in each direction that would make the algorithm O(k * w * h), being w the width of the image, h the height and k the total difference (sum of each width and height component) between original and scaled image. There might be a way to not have to do the whole O(w * h) part for each step, then it would be O(w * h) for the initial pass, then O(w * kh + h * kw), being kw and kh the differences in width and height, respectively, which in the end would more or less still come down to O(w * h), which would mean it would well run in real-time

BTW this would completely rock for several real-life uses if it would be done in real-time. Think no more problems with 4:3/16:9

Moreover, videos could be encoded with the data pre-calculated, dunno how much space that would take though (probably too much).

edit: oops. ftp://ftp1.idc.ac.il/Arik_shamir/SCweb/vidret/index.html

 

[chad78]

I am not sure what to say on that subject. The fact is, you can pick up a Sony PSP and a half decent game and still save money compared to the Pandora. $300+ is a lot to drop down on a open source piece of hardware like that, and it can be disappointing or frustrating having to rely on a community of users to provide you with a selection of games instead of a well founded company.
The Pandora isn't just an emulation device. It's not even (just) a game console. It's a Gaming UMPC. It has WiFi, BlueTooth, a keyboard, a touchscreen... These things will be rarely used for gaming. It can run desktop Linux. It can run Firefox 3. It can run MPlayer. You're not getting a $330 game system - you're getting a $330 pocketable computer with game controls.

==

And now, for my song...

Narrator: In A.D. 2008, Pandora was beginning.
GPH: What happen ?
Parts Supplier: Somehow we sold up us a bomb.
Help Desk: We get signal.
GPH: What !
Help Desk: Touch screen turn on.
GPH: It's you !!
CraigIX: How are you gentlemen !!
CraigIX: All your gamers are belong to us.
CraigIX: You are on the way to destruction.
GPH: What you say !!
CraigIX: You have no chance to survive make your time.
CraigIX: Ha Ha Ha Ha ....
Help Desk: Captain !! *
GPH: Take out every 'GP2X'!!
GPH: You know what you doing.
GPH: Remove 'GP2X'.
GPH: For great justice.

 

[christo930]

The gp2x was a POS and I'm glad to see the pandora take its place; even if it is a disaster it would never top the gp2x in terms of failing in every category it tried to compete in. The software is great but man what a platform to waste all that effort on. Thankfully it can all be ported to an ARM device with some semblance of quality.

Honestly I wish the pandora forum was somewhere else to distance it from these flaky doomed handhelds.

The GP2X is far from a POS! It has a couple of flaws, most notably the thumb pad. Other than that, it's a great system and I've had many hours of enjoyment using it. If you don't like it and think it's a POS, I really don't know what you are doing here. Go buy yourself a psp and some games and knock yourself out.

Furthermore, comparing the gp2x unfavorably to a device you have never used or even seen is ridiculous. You may turn out to absolutely hate the Pandora for all you know. Get lost.

Then you're still changing the horizontal from 224 to 240 rows. Or 288 on PAL systems. The video processor is still doing some scaling on it's way out to the TV.

That part isn't true. A scanline is a scanline and the synchronization between the console and the TV in this regard tends to be something well built into the design of the video subsystem. Any scanlines that the TV shows that aren't part of the active display area of the console will be a particular solid color (often the background color) or a fixed color like black. If you play platforms like say, Sega Master System, that only had 192 scanlines, the result was something highly letterboxed. Still, it's not as if all NTSC TVs actually display 240 scanlines, in fact, I think most of them display quite a bit less, and anything over 224 is basically considered extra.

In the interest of peace, I present seam carving. Imagine an emulator that could do this in real time. No fuzziness!


You're joking, right? I think that would make almost any game completely unplayable....


Isn't ntsc 525 scan (horizontal) lines? The resolution of vcr tapes and dvd's is usually vertical resolution.

 

[Spadoof]

Chad78.................................Your making CraigIx sound like Hitler (In your song). You kinda need to to stop ragging on the gp2x. We all know you really dislike it. Its getting old................................................... <_< . I'll say it once more, WITHOUT THE GP2X & GP32 THIS COMMUNITY PROBABLY WOULDNT EXIST (At least in as great of magnitude) and YOU WOULDNT BE LOOKING AT A PANDORA RENDERING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(

-Spadoof :gp2x

You soon will be mine andora1:

 

[plopperz]

Godwin's law much?
I don't thnk Chad dislikes the GP2X, he just dislikes people who like the GP2X.

 

[bigtruck]

Chad78.................................Your making CraigIx sound like Hitler (In your song).

Actually, I do believe he's making Craigix sound like CATS.

 

[Spadoof]

I was making a generalization (It wasnt meant to be taken seriously). In any case, I still find it ironic he keeps bringing down the Gp2x and the Gp32 when he's on gp32x.de. I think the general consensus on this site, is that the gp2x is a good thing. Just saying.....................


-Spadoof :gp2x

 

[plopperz]

think the general consensus on this site, is that the gp2x is a good thing.

So I guess he's not allowed to dislike it then. Since most other people like it?

He can hate it all he wants (though I don't think he does), just like quasist is allowed to dislike the Pandora.

Free speech, my friend.

 

[Spadoof]

........................................... I'm not arguing the fact of free speech, but he is pretty much disrespecting THE ENTIRE foundation for what this community was founded on. I dont mind the fact he dislikes the gp2x, thats fine. But in almost every post on this thread, he has to go in circles making more and more statements about how the Gp2x was bad or terrible. Just saying it was kinda gettin old. BUT THEN AGAIN.................FREE SPEECH

-Spadoof :gp2x

 

[kuehnau]

I am not sure what to say on that subject. The fact is, you can pick up a Sony PSP and a half decent game and still save money compared to the Pandora. $300+ is a lot to drop down on a open source piece of hardware like that, and it can be disappointing or frustrating having to rely on a community of users to provide you with a selection of games instead of a well founded company.
The Pandora isn't just an emulation device. It's not even (just) a game console. It's a Gaming UMPC. It has WiFi, BlueTooth, a keyboard, a touchscreen... These things will be rarely used for gaming. It can run desktop Linux. It can run Firefox 3. It can run MPlayer. You're not getting a $330 game system - you're getting a $330 pocketable computer with game controls.

The thing is, I don't want/or need everything the Pandora has to offer. To be perfectly frank, it is still hard for me to find a lot of areas where I live where I can even find a WiFi connection I can connect to besides my own network I set up for myself. Also, Given a choice, I would always, always use a desktop computer, for almost all of those reasons you listed instead of a portable computer, and the fact is for about $300, no counting shipping, I could build a desktop much stronger then the Pandora.

BlueTooth? No thanks, bluetooth devices are still very much expensive in my area. Why would I want to pay $75.00 for a bluetooth mouse or headset when I can pay under $10 for a normal one? The keyboard is a nice touch, but I don't much like the way they went about doing it, and it <B>looks</B> cheap. I don't like linux, and I won't use Firefox 3 even on my desktop until it has more of the kinks worked out.

The thing is, there are going to be two people, the people who want the Pandora for games and then the people who want the Pandora for the whole portable computer aspect, and when you really get down to it, there are a LOT of options out there, which can be potentially cheaper and more easily available then the Pandora. The fact is, not only do they have lot of hype to live up to, but they have quite a few other devices to compete with.

I mean hell, for a extra $200 I could get a laptop, with all of those features and more. Yeah, it would be bigger, but I could also play World of Warcraft and HalfLife 2 on it. Portable computing is overrated in general, so is Wifi and the ability to access limited internet from hotspots.

 

[Exophase]

QUOTE
The GP2X is far from a POS! It has a couple of flaws, most notably the thumb pad. Other than that, it's a great system and I've had many hours of enjoyment using it. If you don't like it and think it's a POS, I really don't know what you are doing here. Go buy yourself a psp and some games and knock yourself out.


Man let people think what they want, I program for GP2X but it's not a wonderful perfect system, to me the flaws have been a major pain in the ass... and you used that "what are you doing on gp32x then huh huh" line on me before and I have as much reason to be here as you do (probably more reason but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt)

QUOTE
Furthermore, comparing the gp2x unfavorably to a device you have never used or even seen is ridiculous. You may turn out to absolutely hate the Pandora for all you know. Get lost.


Before the GP2X came out everyone said it'd be friggin awesome, where were you to tell them that it might actually suck? Although maybe that would have been nice ;p

If people can accept the GP2X then I think something is going to have be very, very wrong with the Pandora for them not to accept that too - the reason people think GP2X is great is because of the software, and the Pandora is absolutely going to get the same kind of software development that the GP2X got. I doubt it'll have worse problems than GP2X, we already know 100% that it won't have some of them. You can tell quite a lot about something just by where all the ports are.

QUOTE
Isn't ntsc 525 scan (horizontal) lines? The resolution of vcr tapes and dvd's is usually vertical resolution.


I had a feeling someone might say that but no, that's very misleading. It's timed to 525 scanlines per two frames, so there are 262.5 per frame. That really means 262 or 263. Since old consoles are usually in "non-interlaced" mode they keep sending the same 262 (even) or 263 (odd) fields per frame, with the other roughly half not being used, causing you to see black lines where they are (but since the phosphors bleed out of their shadow masks it doesn't look 50% black, more like 30%). But the thing is, these don't all correspond to actual physical scanlines on the screen. A lot of them are timing periods used for synchronization, blanking, etc. No console that I know of sends out more than 240-242 or so on NTSC for the active display (as in, graphical data corresponding to what should be on the screen), it'll send out some other fixed color for the rest. But the TVs themselves usually have less scanlines than that, or they're covered up by plastic borders around the screen. 224 is about a good safe number, which is why later NTSC consoles only showed this much (to give more time for vblank periods)

The left/right edges are also cut off too, in varying amounts.

 

[Beoran]

I was looking int buying a GP2X when I found out it's production had been stopped. Bummer! >_<
I'll guess I'll have to wait for the Pandora, now. ^_^

I hope that the Pandora becomes a huge success. But I I also hope that it's price will gradually drop to GP2X levels. The components should get cheaper, and also, bigger production runs should reduce the cost.

 

[AireTamStorm]

pffft. Obviously from some knob who never had one.

I kinda hated mine. It made a great MP3 player replacement, minus the AAs that lasted only 30 minutes, the DIGITAL JOYSTICK (argh! DaveC was right!!!), the flaky headphone jack, the software controlled speakers, lack of a real GPU, not great internal memory, lack of WiFi, a touchscreen (initiallly), a keyboard, a faster CPU, an MMU in the second CPU, USB host, IR, Bluetooth, a good resolution LCD, and a decent form factor.

I can't wait for the Pandora, because even if software development is COMPLETELY abandoned on it, I could still use it reasonably since it has both WiFi and Bluetooth.