I prefer "human" rights, everything else is sexist.
Define "most places" please, do you mean Africa, India and the middle east? I somewhat fail to see the connection to middle Europe in your statement atm.
The Communication Cube
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I prefer "human" rights, everything else is sexist.
Define "most places" please, do you mean Africa, India and the middle east? I somewhat fail to see the connection to middle Europe in your statement atm.
ElPoco
Hardcore Member
In 2014 in France : 143 people were killed by their partner. 118 victims are women, 25 are male.
How many of those had a partner of the opposite sex?
How many of the 25 men did ask for help beforehand and didn't get it?
I wonder if they'd left long before if it wouldn't mean losing your kids and a big chunk of what you own.
For some reason somewhat violent guys are stil quite popular when it comes to ladies and get prefered to cool headed ones after all, so I wouldn't be surprised if you're just talking about heterosexual relationships here.
Too bad that you forgot the source altogether.
And I still fail to see how arresting the guy when he made the call and has all the bruises is any help and why you defend it.
Basically what you're saying is:
When you're a guy and ask for help, don't expect to not get even more trouble because of other men.
This is sexism in its purest form and on top of that you're denouncing me as someone who "fights women's rights" when I ask a simple question about sexism against help seeking men, dafuq?
Atm it looks like the "women's rights" you mean is something like the right to assault and terrorize your partner without repercussions if he is male and even getting support when doing so.
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ElPoco
Hardcore Member
That's a nice strawman you've built there, but it's not me.
Here is the source (in French) with the pdf of the study. Draw your own conclusions, since you don't look like you want to hear what people want to say.
Here is the source (in French) with the pdf of the study. Draw your own conclusions, since you don't look like you want to hear what people want to say.
I just get irritated if someone is instinctively defending perpetrators and massive injustice and discrimination, it doesn't matter for which reason or by which means.
Do you also react defensive with statistics and with accusations when it comes to other crimes and injustice committed by and affecting other people with other superficial characteristics?
You're not even Spanish and couldn't answer my initial question.
I've read about the anti-women sexism in the 1930s Spain myself but just wondered if they really went so far as to reverse the problem.
Do you also react defensive with statistics and with accusations when it comes to other crimes and injustice committed by and affecting other people with other superficial characteristics?
You're not even Spanish and couldn't answer my initial question.
I've read about the anti-women sexism in the 1930s Spain myself but just wondered if they really went so far as to reverse the problem.
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Isn't the problem that when any discrimination issue comes into the public spotlight, public figures (including politicians etc) are very quick to find one or two simple solutions to a small part of the problem.
Sexism against women in the 1st world has been a widely acknowledged problem for roughly a century now.
In that time, many good things have been done to correct the situation. A few of them have overshot.
Not that long ago, police regarded domestic abuse as the husband's right and blamed the wife for angering him. Now not only will they support abused wives, but they are so eager to do so that they neglect to actually investigate the case.
Likewise, it used to be the the only jobs women could get were teaching, nursing and housework. Now some employers are so keen to employ women in managerial and scientific roles that they will overlook better-qualified men.
Both of these are the easy examples, and certainly not representative of the situation as a whole (as far as I can tell - well-educated, white, middle-class Englishman here, so I'm not exactly the best person to talk about unfair discrimination)
There are other ways in which men still get unreasonable favour, but I'm pretty confident that the overall trend in the parts of life I'm aware of is towards uniform gender-equality.
I'd be very surprised if there are any places where the average bias in society as a whole is in womens' favour, though there may be enough specific aspects where it is to build a convincing argument.
Sexism against women in the 1st world has been a widely acknowledged problem for roughly a century now.
In that time, many good things have been done to correct the situation. A few of them have overshot.
Not that long ago, police regarded domestic abuse as the husband's right and blamed the wife for angering him. Now not only will they support abused wives, but they are so eager to do so that they neglect to actually investigate the case.
Likewise, it used to be the the only jobs women could get were teaching, nursing and housework. Now some employers are so keen to employ women in managerial and scientific roles that they will overlook better-qualified men.
Both of these are the easy examples, and certainly not representative of the situation as a whole (as far as I can tell - well-educated, white, middle-class Englishman here, so I'm not exactly the best person to talk about unfair discrimination)
There are other ways in which men still get unreasonable favour, but I'm pretty confident that the overall trend in the parts of life I'm aware of is towards uniform gender-equality.
I'd be very surprised if there are any places where the average bias in society as a whole is in womens' favour, though there may be enough specific aspects where it is to build a convincing argument.
If we talk about averages:
On average, a women earns less than a man for the same amount of work.
On average. a woman works double shift, having to work, clean the home, AND be the main caretaker of the children.
On average, a woman is treated less than an equal, when it comes to decision making
and therefore, the protection (police, social) is biased towards women. Rightfully so.
And yes, some women know how to navigate the waters, or react with extreme feminism as a way to (over-) counterbalance.
And then, when one woman commits acts of cruelty, such as man does... let's say... Bobbit (she cut off his thingy)... its front page news. But just because you do not hear about those many anonymous mutilated faces, exploded eyes, broken limbs of women (perpetrated by men) you do not get the full picture of the outbalanced situation. You see, on average, women have less muscle and strength that man. And so, in a domestic fight, that escalated beyond verbal (abuse)... they lose.
As for the spanish situation: nope, women bring up their children to mimic the same old situation. Depending on the family, there are a few that do have matriarchs that rule families. But most are patriachisms.
example: Man brings home the paycheck. Woman handles budget, gives a small allowance to the man for cigarettes. This is where the woman is in charge. The other situation is where the woman has to beg for pocket money, lend from the neighbour to buy food to make dinner because she has no money to buy ingredients for it (and men, when hungry, are more agressive)... that's a patriarchism...
so the current situation is that we have more and more singles living alone, making their own decisions... *(of course, with less work available in Spain, you need units of family to stay afloat just for the fact that living together saves maintenance of 2 houses)
Ah... too much text. Watch this. Try to figure out who is the good person and who is the bad person....
On average, a women earns less than a man for the same amount of work.
On average. a woman works double shift, having to work, clean the home, AND be the main caretaker of the children.
On average, a woman is treated less than an equal, when it comes to decision making
and therefore, the protection (police, social) is biased towards women. Rightfully so.
And yes, some women know how to navigate the waters, or react with extreme feminism as a way to (over-) counterbalance.
And then, when one woman commits acts of cruelty, such as man does... let's say... Bobbit (she cut off his thingy)... its front page news. But just because you do not hear about those many anonymous mutilated faces, exploded eyes, broken limbs of women (perpetrated by men) you do not get the full picture of the outbalanced situation. You see, on average, women have less muscle and strength that man. And so, in a domestic fight, that escalated beyond verbal (abuse)... they lose.
As for the spanish situation: nope, women bring up their children to mimic the same old situation. Depending on the family, there are a few that do have matriarchs that rule families. But most are patriachisms.
example: Man brings home the paycheck. Woman handles budget, gives a small allowance to the man for cigarettes. This is where the woman is in charge. The other situation is where the woman has to beg for pocket money, lend from the neighbour to buy food to make dinner because she has no money to buy ingredients for it (and men, when hungry, are more agressive)... that's a patriarchism...
so the current situation is that we have more and more singles living alone, making their own decisions... *(of course, with less work available in Spain, you need units of family to stay afloat just for the fact that living together saves maintenance of 2 houses)
Ah... too much text. Watch this. Try to figure out who is the good person and who is the bad person....
Average where? Claims as general as those can't be meant for the whole planet still today.
All my female buddies and ex-gfs say quite the opposite (easier to get good scores at school, good places at universities, well paid jobs in the entry level as well as the advanced/academical level, more support for proper education from family and state, more protection from abuse thanks to "Frauenhäuser", no compulsory military service ever etc...) and most of those old "statistics" have been debunked already in many areas (mostly because women worked less hours per month on average resulting in less payment).
Also: I'm living in the country with the lowest birthrate worldwide so the whole children aspect isn't part of the "average" relationship here anymore either.
Every revolution tends to create structures similar to what it was initially against, it's human nature.
Unfortunately the public perception is often changing even slower than the actual world it's looking at.
That's a very nice experiment on video. Positive discrimination. Yes, I acknowledge that this bias is encrusted, permeated, part of the culture.
As for my little spot in the world (Europe), here are some statistical averages on incomes:
http://www.wageindicator.org/docume...olicies-and-activities-in-eu-29-countries.pdf
Specifically, the country I hail from:
http://www.loonwijzer.nl/root_files...ets-2015/gpg_country_factsheet_nl_2015_nl.pdf
Where data from http://www.gemiddeld-inkomen.nl/modaal-inkomen-huishouden/ shows that (as still seen in my surroundings, friends and church) men have higher income that woman. (the gap actually broadens when you consider white and non white people, white males actually earn much much more... as you get poor and less white, the minimum wage kicks in and levels it for poor men/women). So... good for you you live in a place where things are more leveled. In a place where a woman is not told she is shit, she actually develops and blooms into a full realized potential.
You do not want to get born in China or India as a woman, you either get killed (due to the, now removed 1 child policy) or get raped (daily happenings, even in clear daylight). The fifth indian guy that raped this indian girl did not go to jail because "she didnt resist".
These are particular, cherry picked events, but on average, the trend stays the same.
Understand that you live comfortably because of underpayed women labour (lookup up Bangladesh labour conditions)... do not forget the "Real Total cost of ownership" of all that you own is much much higher, including your equality, which has been fought for, inch by inch, by determined woman.
As for the "women work less hours"... I'm pretty sure that is because they keep the house tidy too... and maintains the friends networks... on average... of course I know lazy women too... living on welfare and such. That is why you (and me) should talk averages...
Examples with cars: Say you are going left, in order to go straight, you correct by going right... and the wheel actually does NOT go straight for a while until you go in the right direction (straight), only then the wheels go straight too...
As for my little spot in the world (Europe), here are some statistical averages on incomes:
http://www.wageindicator.org/docume...olicies-and-activities-in-eu-29-countries.pdf
Specifically, the country I hail from:
http://www.loonwijzer.nl/root_files...ets-2015/gpg_country_factsheet_nl_2015_nl.pdf
Where data from http://www.gemiddeld-inkomen.nl/modaal-inkomen-huishouden/ shows that (as still seen in my surroundings, friends and church) men have higher income that woman. (the gap actually broadens when you consider white and non white people, white males actually earn much much more... as you get poor and less white, the minimum wage kicks in and levels it for poor men/women). So... good for you you live in a place where things are more leveled. In a place where a woman is not told she is shit, she actually develops and blooms into a full realized potential.
You do not want to get born in China or India as a woman, you either get killed (due to the, now removed 1 child policy) or get raped (daily happenings, even in clear daylight). The fifth indian guy that raped this indian girl did not go to jail because "she didnt resist".
These are particular, cherry picked events, but on average, the trend stays the same.
Understand that you live comfortably because of underpayed women labour (lookup up Bangladesh labour conditions)... do not forget the "Real Total cost of ownership" of all that you own is much much higher, including your equality, which has been fought for, inch by inch, by determined woman.
As for the "women work less hours"... I'm pretty sure that is because they keep the house tidy too... and maintains the friends networks... on average... of course I know lazy women too... living on welfare and such. That is why you (and me) should talk averages...
Examples with cars: Say you are going left, in order to go straight, you correct by going right... and the wheel actually does NOT go straight for a while until you go in the right direction (straight), only then the wheels go straight too...
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ElPoco
Hardcore Member
Here is the data in France from an organization that studies inequality
These are hard recents facts, and they are summarized as such "Inequalities between men and women are reducing, but we are still far from reaching equality".
And all their studies on the topic always show an inequality in favor of men, except for life expectancy.
Besides this, according to this study from the government, 100% of the women were victims of sexual harassment in the public transportation, which is something all the girls and women I've talked about on that subject confirmed.
When talking about security, all travel guides for nearly all destinations recommend that women should be especially cautious when traveling alone.
As I pointed out earlier, women are also far more likely to be victims of domestic abuse.
And we get news like this everyday.
And even if there might be cases where being a girl makes it easier because you're pretty or whatever, I don't think it's really an advantage. You want to have good grades because you're competent, not because you look nice, you want to be a person, not an object.
These are facts. There are anecdotes and cases of the contrary, but unless you give more some actual serious studies that shows that women are oppressing men, I don't consider this to be the norm.
This doesn't mean that the abuses shouldn't be fought. By all means, men should feel free to stay at home and take care of the kids and the household chores without being looked down at. Men should be able to complain about sexual harassment and domestic abuse without being dismissed or laughed at. But the fight for these rights shouldn't be used as a way to keep men in a position of power compared to women. You can fight against domestic abuse of men without destroying the progress that has been made in the fight against domestic abuse of women, or dismissing it.
These are hard recents facts, and they are summarized as such "Inequalities between men and women are reducing, but we are still far from reaching equality".
And all their studies on the topic always show an inequality in favor of men, except for life expectancy.
Besides this, according to this study from the government, 100% of the women were victims of sexual harassment in the public transportation, which is something all the girls and women I've talked about on that subject confirmed.
When talking about security, all travel guides for nearly all destinations recommend that women should be especially cautious when traveling alone.
As I pointed out earlier, women are also far more likely to be victims of domestic abuse.
And we get news like this everyday.
And even if there might be cases where being a girl makes it easier because you're pretty or whatever, I don't think it's really an advantage. You want to have good grades because you're competent, not because you look nice, you want to be a person, not an object.
These are facts. There are anecdotes and cases of the contrary, but unless you give more some actual serious studies that shows that women are oppressing men, I don't consider this to be the norm.
This doesn't mean that the abuses shouldn't be fought. By all means, men should feel free to stay at home and take care of the kids and the household chores without being looked down at. Men should be able to complain about sexual harassment and domestic abuse without being dismissed or laughed at. But the fight for these rights shouldn't be used as a way to keep men in a position of power compared to women. You can fight against domestic abuse of men without destroying the progress that has been made in the fight against domestic abuse of women, or dismissing it.
^ I'm surprised to see that France may still be like that. Some of the numbers are reversed to Germany, the percentage of female students for example.
There was a European study not too long ago about the ratings in school and especcially the big German cities have shown massive sexism against boys (leading to more female students in universities for example).
http://www.spiegel.de/schulspiegel/...en-benachteiligen-jungen-massiv-a-612997.html
I was in one of those schools and even the girls noticed the sexism in their favor although didn't complain of course (not fighting for equality if you're privileged, eh?).
Besides the way easier entry at a fraction of actual effort in academic fields, jobs in official transit and even in the military thanks to quotas everywhere.
Around here and in many other places too, rather than fighting for equal rights as men, feminism has twisted the narrative to make women see entitlements as rights. Rather than a woman saying, "I bend over backwards for this company I work for and I deserve a raise and a corner office for being a good asset to this business" instead it is, "I deserve that raise and corner office because I'm a woman." That is pure sexist bullshit and has nothing to do with equality.
I wonder what the throwing around of studies is supposed to be good for though.
My question was about how help seeking men get trodden down even more in Spain and you react by repeating the massive media narrative how all females everywhere in the western world have it so bad etc...
Doesn't this reaction concern you? It's a bit like victim shaming but apparently reactions like those are ok if their against equal rights for men.
I hope you didn't cheer for this book burning: http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2014/0...a-copy-of-the-war-against-boys-this-happened/
There was a European study not too long ago about the ratings in school and especcially the big German cities have shown massive sexism against boys (leading to more female students in universities for example).
http://www.spiegel.de/schulspiegel/...en-benachteiligen-jungen-massiv-a-612997.html
I was in one of those schools and even the girls noticed the sexism in their favor although didn't complain of course (not fighting for equality if you're privileged, eh?).
Besides the way easier entry at a fraction of actual effort in academic fields, jobs in official transit and even in the military thanks to quotas everywhere.
Around here and in many other places too, rather than fighting for equal rights as men, feminism has twisted the narrative to make women see entitlements as rights. Rather than a woman saying, "I bend over backwards for this company I work for and I deserve a raise and a corner office for being a good asset to this business" instead it is, "I deserve that raise and corner office because I'm a woman." That is pure sexist bullshit and has nothing to do with equality.
I wonder what the throwing around of studies is supposed to be good for though.
My question was about how help seeking men get trodden down even more in Spain and you react by repeating the massive media narrative how all females everywhere in the western world have it so bad etc...
Doesn't this reaction concern you? It's a bit like victim shaming but apparently reactions like those are ok if their against equal rights for men.
I hope you didn't cheer for this book burning: http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2014/0...a-copy-of-the-war-against-boys-this-happened/
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@Klumpen: Wow... a book burning, that is pretty harsh. I remember a TED talk about something similar... (or wasnt it a TED talk? I remember it told the exact viewpoint you are making. With rocksolid arguments.. Ill keep on searching)
I see what you mean from the data. So 60% of boys isnt graduating, versus 30% of girls. This is a HUGE gap. It cant be explained away with "boys are less diligent when it comes to studying" or "boys get joboffers before they graduate". No wonder you are alarmed.
From a Spanish friend, I got the news that they graduate (if they can affort the loan)... and then are graduated, jobless and with a huge study debt. (all part of a university scheme, where books are changed each year in order to force the students to buy new instead of second hand. This is more than errata's, which can be printed out in normal paper, and maybe applied manually with tipex and a pen).
On the topic of over-feminism... there was this radioshow that was a bit tin-foil-hatty, but had valid points about that feminism is hijacked and
Meanwhile, on TED, touching on the topics we talked about:
New data on the rise of women
Hanna Rosin reviews startling new data that shows women actually surpassing men in several important measures, such as college graduation rates. Do these trends, both US-centric and global, signal the "end of men"? Probably not — but they point toward an important societal shift worth deep discussion.
The demise of guys?
Psychologist Philip Zimbardo asks, "Why are boys struggling?" He shares some stats (lower graduation rates, greater worries about intimacy and relationships) and suggests a few reasons — and challenges the TED community to think about solutions.
Others worth a look:
If you can find it, this one is also interesting as a side discussion: "Growing Up in a Pornified Culture" by Gail Dines on TEDxNave
I see what you mean from the data. So 60% of boys isnt graduating, versus 30% of girls. This is a HUGE gap. It cant be explained away with "boys are less diligent when it comes to studying" or "boys get joboffers before they graduate". No wonder you are alarmed.
From a Spanish friend, I got the news that they graduate (if they can affort the loan)... and then are graduated, jobless and with a huge study debt. (all part of a university scheme, where books are changed each year in order to force the students to buy new instead of second hand. This is more than errata's, which can be printed out in normal paper, and maybe applied manually with tipex and a pen).
On the topic of over-feminism... there was this radioshow that was a bit tin-foil-hatty, but had valid points about that feminism is hijacked and
Meanwhile, on TED, touching on the topics we talked about:
New data on the rise of women
Hanna Rosin reviews startling new data that shows women actually surpassing men in several important measures, such as college graduation rates. Do these trends, both US-centric and global, signal the "end of men"? Probably not — but they point toward an important societal shift worth deep discussion.
The demise of guys?
Psychologist Philip Zimbardo asks, "Why are boys struggling?" He shares some stats (lower graduation rates, greater worries about intimacy and relationships) and suggests a few reasons — and challenges the TED community to think about solutions.
Others worth a look:
If you can find it, this one is also interesting as a side discussion: "Growing Up in a Pornified Culture" by Gail Dines on TEDxNave
ElPoco
Hardcore Member
@Klumpen: You posted an article where a guy turned a couple of anecdotes into a narrative that says that men are getting oppressed by women. I've thrown studies to show that no matter how many anecdotes you have, the big picture is still that women are the ones being oppressed (at least in France, but from what I've read, the situation in Spain isn't that different).
Once again, I agree with you that it's important to take care of the male victim as well and as much as we should do it for the female victims, but for me blaming feminism the way the article and your posts do is wrong. It reminds me of those who say that we need to stop caring about the Shoah because black people had (and still have) it bad too.
Once again, I agree with you that it's important to take care of the male victim as well and as much as we should do it for the female victims, but for me blaming feminism the way the article and your posts do is wrong. It reminds me of those who say that we need to stop caring about the Shoah because black people had (and still have) it bad too.
rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
If all humans died these issues would go away.
rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
You better believe it.Speciecist
Had a session in a pub yesterday. Very little space and most of the crowd didn't listen but thanks to great musicians it was pretty good - then the mandolin of my favourite multiinstrumentalist buddy was stolen.
Seriously, how evil do you have to be in order to steal instruments after several hours of free high quality entertainment?
I regularly hear about stolen instruments including hurdy-gurdys and custom bagpipes which can't be easy to sell without anyone noticing that they're stolen.
That's one thing where I'd actually think the death penalty would be appropriate.
Seriously, how evil do you have to be in order to steal instruments after several hours of free high quality entertainment?
I regularly hear about stolen instruments including hurdy-gurdys and custom bagpipes which can't be easy to sell without anyone noticing that they're stolen.
That's one thing where I'd actually think the death penalty would be appropriate.
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EvilDragon is omnipresent:
http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/40350/what-is-the-best-text-mode-browser
I have just asked DuckDuckGo about minimalist browsers a few minutes ago and there he was again.
http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/40350/what-is-the-best-text-mode-browser
I have just asked DuckDuckGo about minimalist browsers a few minutes ago and there he was again.
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