The case of the case.

[levi]

A note for those concerned about the size of the new key buttons. Just noticed, looking at that comparison image that the keys are now the same size as the start/select/pyra buttons, and those look comparable to the Pandora/start/select buttons, although perhaps a little larger.


The Pyra's system buttons seem to have a little less space between then than the Pandora's had, but just like on the Pandora the system button have more space between them than the keys do. I think the Pandora system buttons are still representative of the Pyra keys therefore, and testing on them I do find I feel more of the adjacent buttons than I do on the Pandora keyboard keys, but depending on keycap design and resistance that might be a greater or lesser issue. If it's comparable to the Pandora buttons, no issue at all.

 

[God Ginrai]

But the space between buttons would be reduced, and that may be an issue for the case strength itself, so the plastic depth may need to be re-inforced and that may be a problem with the board below it.

 It should be about the same space between the buttons as is on the GP2X, so it should be fine.

If the nubs could be moved slightly more towards the center of the unit and make a little more space for the buttons, it may be possible to have 6 buttons as per GG's layout and slightly more space between buttons.

If we could convince EvilDragon to do this, I am all for this idea.

-God Ginrai

 

[ekianjo]

If we could convince EvilDragon to do this, I am all for this idea.

Start a poll ?

I'm joking though, I certainly don't want to see another poll for that kind of things, but up to you as to how you want to take things from there

 

[ssokolow]

 

For the record, I'm not in favour of the smaller buttons God Ginrai's mockup would necessitate.

 
I wish you would please read my posts before you make comments about them. I pointed out no more than 2 posts before yours that I am not using smaller buttons:

I also am not against smaller buttons, but EvilDragon seemed to be against this, so I have not made any suggestions using smaller buttons.

While it's possible that I did miss that since my sleep cycle is currently shot to hell and I only got 4 hours of sleep on each of the last few nights, I'm pretty sure I concluded "small buttons" by looking at the mockup and determining that I couldn't see any way to fit original-sized ones into it.


As for heel-toe use of the buttons, I'm surprised you don't. I didn't know there was any other way to do things like holding dash while pressing jump when dash isn't bound to one of the shoulder buttons.

 

[EvilDragon]

Looking at the latest post, it still looks a bit weird to me - and I really wonder how to play four-button-games (which are the majority) with that layout. The cross-shape is gone here.

 

[Neelix]

Looking at the latest post, it still looks a bit weird to me - and I really wonder how to play four-button-games (which are the majority) with that layout. The cross-shape is gone here.

No it's not.   God Ginrai has been careful to keep the cross-shape in the 4 keys in the lower left of the arrangement.

- Neelix

 

[Natsu]

Looking at the latest post, it still looks a bit weird to me - and I really wonder how to play four-button-games (which are the majority) with that layout. The cross-shape is gone here.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[EvilDragon]

It moves the four main buttons too far inward (same as GGs layout).

The main priority should be to comfortably keep the four-buttons layout and add the two additional buttons in a way that has no negative impact on the four-button-layout.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

It moves the four main buttons too far inward (same as GGs layout).


The main priority should be to comfortably keep the four-buttons layout and add the two additional buttons in a way that has no negative impact on the four-button-layout.

On the contrary, I think it's more comfortable in God Ginrai's approach as it allows more grip.  Right now the Pandora doesn't provide as much grip when using the action buttons, i.e., the two lower corners do not rest very nicely or close enough to your palms of your hands.

 

[levi]

Any grip comes from your palms holding the side of the device. I don't know what you mean by grip on the buttons.


I'm generally in favour of GG's approach personally, though it does present the problem that any software using B as the main action button ends up using a button that's somewhat marooned in the middle of the bottom row.


I don't like Natsu's last picture as it adds two tiny buttons right next to the existing B and Y buttons, close enough to compromise those buttons' support and make it harder to press those buttons in isolation.

 

[Saber]

It moves the four main buttons too far inward (same as GGs layout).


The main priority should be to comfortably keep the four-buttons layout and add the two additional buttons in a way that has no negative impact on the four-button-layout.

Six face button discussion aside, would you consider placing Start and Select buttons side by side one another like on most gamepads, because I always thought it was a stretch for the thumbs to have them in a column like you have them on the Pandora.

I'm asking since we are still in prototype and 3D printing territory and it would be worthwhile to do this I believe. I don't see anything on the board to prevent this change and, as I've shown in my latest Keyboard Layout, we could put Escape(or Super) where Select is. I'm interested in your opinion here ED. Thanks.

 

[God Ginrai]

Looking at the latest post, it still looks a bit weird to me - and I really wonder how to play four-button-games (which are the majority) with that layout. The cross-shape is gone here.

 As Neelix pointed out, I have been careful to keep the cross-shape, because I know there is a large number of users who find this important.

It moves the four main buttons too far inward (same as GGs layout).

The main priority should be to comfortably keep the four-buttons layout and add the two additional buttons in a way that has no negative impact on the four-button-layout.

This wouldn't negatively impact the four-button layout.

As Shenmue mentioned, it allows you to get a more firm grip on the system when using my suggested layout. I know that with the Pandora, I have to grip it pretty loosely to use the ABXY buttons as they are. This leads to me supporting the device more with the tips of my fingers, which tends to lead to hand cramps. A firm grip is even more useful now that the battery size is going to be increased, likely making the Pyra as heavy or heavier than the Pandora was.

-God Ginrai

 

[bzar]

GG, tried quickly to position my fingers according to your layout on my pandora. By keeping my thumb on A-X (tip on A, joint on X) pressing X with the joint caused the P button's corner get caught in it and register a press. Going through the rest of the buttons the layout somehow feels cramped, though it looks OK in your diagram.

I just tried positioning my fingers in the same way for EvilDragon's layout, and the same problem you are describing exists. The top-right key on the Pyra keyboard is in the same direction and distance from EvilDragon's layout's X button as the P on the Pandora keyboard is from the X button in my proposed layout. (Notice that the top-right key is closer to the edge than the Pandora P, which is why this happens) You will have this problem with either layout, so it's a moot point.

It's not. The extra buttons would be pressed exclusively because of their positioning, not in the "heel-toe" manner.

The difference between a button and a nub is that for the nub you arch your thumb so only the tip touches the device. For the buttons you rest the thumb on several buttons, causing the keyboard being uncomfortably under the thumb while keeping it in game buttons' "home position" (A-X on pandora).

 You're the first person I've ever seen use their buttons like the pedals in a stickshift. (heel, toe) Everyone I've ever seen have always pushed their buttons using the tips of their thumbs, exactly as you describe using the nub for your use case.

 

As for heel-toe use of the buttons, I'm surprised you don't. I didn't know there was any other way to do things like holding dash while pressing jump when dash isn't bound to one of the shoulder buttons.

What ssokolow said. I've been doing this since super mario world because it's quite difficult to run-jump-shoot if you can't hold one button down while tapping the other. Even on NES I used to do something like this, but it was quite uncomfortable because it required me to keep my hand in a weird angle to get my thumb on both buttons. If you've ever played the mega man zero games and tried to use both equipped weapons efficiently (quick hits on one, loading the other) while dashing and jumping you'd know it's pretty much impossible without this as you need to use both shoulder buttons and 2 face buttons independently of each other at the same time.

 

[God Ginrai]

GG, tried quickly to position my fingers according to your layout on my pandora. By keeping my thumb on A-X (tip on A, joint on X) pressing X with the joint caused the P button's corner get caught in it and register a press. Going through the rest of the buttons the layout somehow feels cramped, though it looks OK in your diagram.

I just tried positioning my fingers in the same way for EvilDragon's layout, and the same problem you are describing exists. The top-right key on the Pyra keyboard is in the same direction and distance from EvilDragon's layout's X button as the P on the Pandora keyboard is from the X button in my proposed layout. (Notice that the top-right key is closer to the edge than the Pandora P, which is why this happens) You will have this problem with either layout, so it's a moot point.

It's not. The extra buttons would be pressed exclusively because of their positioning, not in the "heel-toe" manner.

No, I'm not talking about pressing the extra buttons. You were talking about how you would flub a keyboard key when trying to press X. I am saying that exact same thing will happen with ED's layout, because while ED's X exists further to the right than the X in my layout, so does the top-right keyboard key in the Pyra exist further to the right than the Pandora P key that you flubbed when trying to test my layout on your Pandora. If you were to use the same method for pressing ED's X as you did with my X, then you would run into the same problem.

What ssokolow said. I've been doing this since super mario world because it's quite difficult to run-jump-shoot if you can't hold one button down while tapping the other. Even on NES I used to do something like this, but it was quite uncomfortable because it required me to keep my hand in a weird angle to get my thumb on both buttons. If you've ever played the mega man zero games and tried to use both equipped weapons efficiently (quick hits on one, loading the other) while dashing and jumping you'd know it's pretty much impossible without this as you need to use both shoulder buttons and 2 face buttons independently of each other at the same time.

Wow, I didn't really realize this. On the Sega Genesis, it was often common for using 3 fingers on the Sega Genesis pad like an arcade stick, so I never ran into that problem. My next system was an N64, which had shoulder buttons and a Z trigger. The only time where I ever would have had to do this was on my Gameboy Color, which I spent much more time playing Pokemon on than Mario.

-God Ginrai

 

[EvilDragon]

How can you hold a Genesis controller in your hand while using three fingers for your buttons? I've never seen anyone doing this, it sounds totally impossible. Unless you use the Powerstick (that arcade-like controller)

 

[comradekingu]

Heel-towing is the reason the snes gamecluster was so good. You need flat, big, and slightly curved guttons for that.

The PS is glorious at this, probably the best thing about it.

Ds for example is too small and narrow, doesnt work well for adults.

The gamecube is too wide again.

To get the most of both, make the buttons as big as possible, and cut down on the gap in between, make them flat with very little travel, and a slight curve.

The systems that are meant for finger tapping are curved inwards (concave) but thats of no use here, unless you place the whole device on a flat surface of course.

 

[God Ginrai]

How can you hold a Genesis controller in your hand while using three fingers for your buttons? I've never seen anyone doing this, it sounds totally impossible. Unless you use the Powerstick (that arcade-like controller)

No, I used a regular 3-button controller. What you do is place the bottom-right point of the controller in your palm and let your index finger rest on A, your middle finger on B, and your ring finger on C. Alternatively, you could use your thumb to grip the bottom instead of resting the point in your palm. I didn't use this for many games, but that's what I used for the few that wanted me to be pressing more than one button simultaneously when they weren't next to each other. My friend even used that grip to get to max spindash speed almost instantly in Sonic games by drumming his fingers across ABC.

-God Ginrai

 

[Grench]

How can you hold a Genesis controller in your hand while using three fingers for your buttons? I've never seen anyone doing this, it sounds totally impossible. Unless you use the Powerstick (that arcade-like controller)

No, I used a regular 3-button controller. What you do is place the bottom-right point of the controller in your palm and let your index finger rest on A, your middle finger on B, and your ring finger on C. Alternatively, you could use your thumb to grip the bottom instead of resting the point in your palm. I didn't use this for many games, but that's what I used for the few that wanted me to be pressing more than one button simultaneously when they weren't next to each other. My friend even used that grip to get to max spindash speed almost instantly in Sonic games by drumming his fingers across ABC.

-God Ginrai

You seem to want to force-alter the Pyra to fit your rather weird play-style.  Compressing the 4 button cross down and left, messing with the symmetry, potentially weakening the unit, etc.... all in the name of your one rather dubious goal.  With ED's design, we keep the standard 4 button cross in the right place AND get the additional 2 buttons you wanted without compromise.

ED's setup is -better-.

 

[bzar]

No, I'm not talking about pressing the extra buttons. You were talking about how you would flub a keyboard key when trying to press X. I am saying that exact same thing will happen with ED's layout, because while ED's X exists further to the right than the X in my layout, so does the top-right keyboard key in the Pyra exist further to the right than the Pandora P key that you flubbed when trying to test my layout on your Pandora. If you were to use the same method for pressing ED's X as you did with my X, then you would run into the same problem.

My mistake. Still, I do think the problem is less pronounced in ED's configuration.

Wow, I didn't really realize this. On the Sega Genesis, it was often common for using 3 fingers on the Sega Genesis pad like an arcade stick, so I never ran into that problem. My next system was an N64, which had shoulder buttons and a Z trigger. The only time where I ever would have had to do this was on my Gameboy Color, which I spent much more time playing Pokemon on than Mario.

-God Ginrai

Glad to be of service . I always wondered how people used multiple buttons on the genesis gamepad and you provided an example of a grip that achieves that, however alien it sounds to me .

 

[God Ginrai]

You seem to want to force-alter the Pyra to fit your rather weird play-style.  Compressing the 4 button cross down and left, messing with the symmetry, potentially weakening the unit, etc.... all in the name of your one rather dubious goal.  With ED's design, we keep the standard 4 button cross in the right place AND get the additional 2 buttons you wanted without compromise.

ED's setup is -better-.

Are you fucking kidding me?

The way I controlled the 3-button Genesis controller for some games has absolutely no bearing on the layout I have suggested. I merely answered EvilDragon's question about how to use a 3-button controller in that manner when he asked.

Stop trying to tarnish my reputation in an attempt to invalidate my claims. It is cowardly.

EDIT: Specifically, it is argumentum ad hominem.

-God Ginrai