Like the microphone, except that the microphone is less stymied by the fact the Pyra may be in a pocket, or shut, or that it is pointing in the "wrong" direction or that it is covered up. If the operating system and hardware cannot be trusted, then the addition of a microphone makes the added vulnerability of a camera a secondary concern.
Should Pyra have a Camera?
- Thread starter dgame
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Caine
Hardcore Member
Yes, I've used Point Grey and Basler cameras industrially. They are quite decent, but I consider them way too large to lug around (typically, a bit bigger than 1/8th of the Pandora).
<edit>This guy has a youtube channel full of camera reviews. Some of them are quite small. Haven't really studied them yet.
E.g. some are medium sized (comparable in volume to some of those Point Greys, though a bit flatter and longer):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wmIyD1fM4M
Others quite a bit smaller (with naturally with worse quality):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgtTg62GDfs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wmIyD1fM4M
Others quite a bit smaller (with naturally with worse quality):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgtTg62GDfs
</edit>
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Grench
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You know - if they're able to shove an entire WiFi kit into one of these:http://www.amazon.com/Edimax-EW-7811Un-150Mbps-Raspberry-Supports/dp/B003MTTJOY
I would think they would be able to put a low-mid resolution tiny lens camera in the same form factor.
They're getting close...
http://www.amazon.com/ELP-Driver-Camera-Module-ELP-USBFHD01M-L21/dp/B00KA7WSSU/
Caine
Hardcore Member
Indeed. Now we just need one like that with the USB plug protruding from the back and the PCB covered up.
<edit>So far all the ones I've been able to find of this form factor have their electronics exposed like this one. I.e. it's not a final consumer product.</edit>
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rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
Yes, what he said: less talking, more doing. Like with keyboard stuff. The huge difference is if everyone doesn't like it they can still get Pyra and not feel like they paid for something that is not good enough for their needs. Oh, and you actually have affordable alternatives to a semi-official camera.
What is it that is so secret, yet you must say it without taking basic precautions to avoid someone else hearing? If it really bothers you rip it out. If it is about the principle go tell ED that he is making a mistake by not including a camera, or by including a mic, or both.
My point is that, compared with a microphone, a camera is trivial to disable, so that if you are worried about a camera (I am not, though you appear to be), then you should be doubly worried about a microphone (I am not... much; I expect to be able to trust the Pyra). I find it strange that a camera can be viewed as more of a threat on a personal device than a microphone, for that reason. I find it strange that the camera is argued against, on the grounds of security, when the microphone is already there.
I already accept there that sha'n't be a camera on the Pyra, for the decent reasons given: cost, complexity, space, bulge and that it is too late to change things now.
Huh? I don't plan to use my Pyra at home - I have a real PC there. The use case is when we're not at home, and I can't leave cameras "lying around", nor do I want to have to be careful not to lose a tiny USB camera that doesn't properly fit in my pocket without breaking in the first place...
No, it isn't. Just turn it off. That's why this stuff is open source.
Anything external is automatically going to suck (unless it is custom fit to attach onto the Pyra).
What is it that is so secret, yet you must do it without taking basic precautions to avoid someone else seeing? Speech is far more privacy-sensitive than sight.
If the camera really bothers you, you could rip it out too? Anyhow, it's already decided the Pyra will be missing this critical functionality, so now the discussion must turn to how to mitigate it... which is why I am hoping someone has the skills to engineer some kind of extension.
rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
I find it amusing that you keep mentioning that a microphone is worse than a camera, yet you have not provided a single example. Cameras are a bigger threat for many reasons. Vision is our primary sense for a reason. We use it to navigate our world, so lets start there: it can collect visual information about locations that are frequently visited. Once at these locations information about these places are usually visible, such as doors and windows in relation to furniture and equipment. "Oh, the safe is over there." Depending on the type of camera it will regularly be in proximity to sensitive information. Sometimes I don't immediately hide financial documents after viewing them. You know those people that always have their latest Galaxy S Whatever in their hands? I bet they use ATMs and make purchases. I have watched people put in their PIN with a smartphone in the hand they are using to push the numbers.
Without really giving it much thought, I can see that a camera can provide information about where you go (and what you do and whom you do it with), the layout of these locations, vulnerabilities and layout of the interior of these places, financial and other sensitive information, and possibly (for those that are very foolish) passwords and other access codes. Most of this sort of information can be collected at a distance that would make a typical microphone in a consumer device of little value to collect spoken information, such as across a room with background noise. Security cameras are more common than audio recordings for security purposes because the information they can provide is more valuable and more likely to be useful. Microphones are not a bigger threat. They don't even come close unless you are discussing sensitive information in proximity to them. Anyone that has things they don't want others to hear should know that you don't discuss these things just anywhere. I don't provide sensitive information over telephone calls either since it is much easier to be heard by someone else. There is the threat you shoudl be considering more than either a camera or a microphone: random people doing whatever they do for their own personal reasons. That reminds me, many people can genuinely read lips (I know some) so with video they can make out what someone is saying from a much greater distance than audio.
This is a double edged blade. Every user may not know exactly what they are doing. If there is a physical switch or some easy way to disconnect or reconnect, or even an unobtrusive sliding cover, I am all for a camera and might use it sometimes. If we go that route, keep it low quality and cheap, too.
There is a huge difference between privacy and security. A microphone is a privacy concern. A camera is a security concern, and even without going extreme, it could impact others than the owner of the camera. I have tons of first hand knowledge and experience of both sides of this supporting my claim (there are videos that include me on youtube that were made without my knowledge or consent...guess what, I wasn't speaking).
As far as security concerns, I already provided those above. Examples of when these might be possible are when the user is carrying or using their Pyra and are not aware that the camera is in use, or when it is sitting unattended on a table.
Why would I want to pay more to have a camera included just so that I can remove it? Why not add a camera if you want it and lower the cost a little for everyone else? A camera is NOT critical. It would be convenient for those that want one built in, and is an inconvenience since it will not. It will still do everything else it is designed to do, including allowing the owner to play DS and other games that require a microphone.
I really don't care if there is a mic or not. I will be using a headset if I need one.
All these security concerns can be solved by the simple expedient of duct-tape or, even better, an integrated cover (which you mention, too) as on the Nokia N900. I would argue for any camera to come with an integrated cover.
A microphone in a Pyra, Pandora or phone is a microphone in your pocket at all/most times. If the device is compromised (unlikely in the case of a Pyra or Pandora), then the only way to be safe is to leave the device elsewhere whenever you need to say anything sensitive (which can be difficult to predict, and does not work at all for the surprising utterances of other people). Location, very roughly, can be inferred from sounds: indoors vs. outdoors, large room vs small room (echoes), country (languages heard) etc.. Also can detect, roughly, the number of other people there and, perhaps, how far away they are.
Of course, the answer to these (beyond covering up the camera, which does not work well for a microphone) is to ensure that it is difficult to compromise the machine in the first place, with dependable ways to turn off the devices (including WiFi, GSM, microphone and camera), proper Unix-style access controls and an open, auditible operating system. I think we have all those things -- if not, then even without a camera or a microphone, one is somewhat vulnerable (unless the Pyra is used for nothing beyond playing games).
A microphone in a Pyra, Pandora or phone is a microphone in your pocket at all/most times. If the device is compromised (unlikely in the case of a Pyra or Pandora), then the only way to be safe is to leave the device elsewhere whenever you need to say anything sensitive (which can be difficult to predict, and does not work at all for the surprising utterances of other people). Location, very roughly, can be inferred from sounds: indoors vs. outdoors, large room vs small room (echoes), country (languages heard) etc.. Also can detect, roughly, the number of other people there and, perhaps, how far away they are.
Of course, the answer to these (beyond covering up the camera, which does not work well for a microphone) is to ensure that it is difficult to compromise the machine in the first place, with dependable ways to turn off the devices (including WiFi, GSM, microphone and camera), proper Unix-style access controls and an open, auditible operating system. I think we have all those things -- if not, then even without a camera or a microphone, one is somewhat vulnerable (unless the Pyra is used for nothing beyond playing games).
rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
I would agree to something like this as long as it didn't increase cost too much. I don't like the tape option because even if you spend time trying to make sure it doesn't look like shit when you are doing it, eventually the tape starts to curl up at the edges, and just looks bad. This won't be as much of an issue with a camera on the inside, pointed at the user (and which eliminates most of the problems I am concerned with).
Where would those of you asking for a camera prefer it if there was only one?
While true to some extent, most of this would not work as well or as simply as you describe. General information is not the goal. If an individual is being singled out the person or organization seeking information will want more specific details. Even specialized audio equipment designed for these purposes isn't perfect in this respect, and the data collected still requires a lot of analysis and guessing. Again, it depends on what is being used and many other factors, however a basic mic in a consumer device isn't of much concern. If someone is attempting identitiy theft, robbery, blackmail, assault, etc. a basic camera can still be a problem.
This may be true, assuming the user is sticking with the default OS that is currently planned, however I still have concerns about that and future updates. What happens when they install Android or some version of Windows if that ever becomes possible? I don't know, but that is why hardware choices are also important to consider.
Caine
Hardcore Member
On the USB port. Only option we have.
If builtin would still be on the table, there are arguments for both. Pointing at the user would be useful for video calls, but a tad awkward when taking pictures (as you would have to view the screen from the side). At the back would be easier for pictures, but would make video calls impossible.
Cost: Yes, that is an important consideration, which is why I am not screaming "I must have a camera", but saying "a camera is nice to have, if possible". I am led to believe it is not possible, because of a lack of space.
If there was only one camera, I expect that a user-facing one would be most useful, though ideally one would have one for capturing images of the outside world as well. There seems to be some space in the "lid", as there is to be a large logo with LEDs anyway -- that may be a good place for a camera with a cover. As for a user-facing camera, there would be less space available on the "lid", but there may be sufficient space in the nub-dpad-face-button area, though including a cover may be awkward. Or it could be on the hinge just below the screen, in the middle (though under the surface that may be nearly impossible).
Android or Windows: presumably those with the technical skills to install a new OS would have some awareness of the security downsides. Plus, I would expect people who would want Android or Windows to already be around other Android or Windows devices with cameras and microphones, so they are already compromised -- if they want to shoot themselves in the foot, let them.
If there was only one camera, I expect that a user-facing one would be most useful, though ideally one would have one for capturing images of the outside world as well. There seems to be some space in the "lid", as there is to be a large logo with LEDs anyway -- that may be a good place for a camera with a cover. As for a user-facing camera, there would be less space available on the "lid", but there may be sufficient space in the nub-dpad-face-button area, though including a cover may be awkward. Or it could be on the hinge just below the screen, in the middle (though under the surface that may be nearly impossible).
Android or Windows: presumably those with the technical skills to install a new OS would have some awareness of the security downsides. Plus, I would expect people who would want Android or Windows to already be around other Android or Windows devices with cameras and microphones, so they are already compromised -- if they want to shoot themselves in the foot, let them.
rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
So the title of the thread might be better as "Should the Pyra have two cameras?", because even I feel that if you are going to have one it makes sense to have both. For the user facing camera you don't need a cover, just put tape over it.
Don't assume it would require technical skills to install a different OS. It might require someone with those skills to get it going, but the user may just follow simple instructions and put it on their SD card. The person making a version of Windows for the fictional built in camera including Pyra may use this all to their advantage and leave a backdoor that isn't obvious. Hmmm, maybe we shouldn't trust anything coming from the community. I wonder what sort of evil things ptitSeb has included in his Pandora ports.
Don't assume it would require technical skills to install a different OS. It might require someone with those skills to get it going, but the user may just follow simple instructions and put it on their SD card. The person making a version of Windows for the fictional built in camera including Pyra may use this all to their advantage and leave a backdoor that isn't obvious. Hmmm, maybe we shouldn't trust anything coming from the community. I wonder what sort of evil things ptitSeb has included in his Pandora ports.
I fail to see how a inside camera would be more useful than an outside one, when the main pull is video chatting. Even selfies can be use by the outside camera. To be fair, I'm surprised that even an inside camera didn't made it in. Even the 3ds camera should be good enough for that.
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If someone uses a compromised OS, they already have problems, with or without a camera or microphone. Let those who make trouble for themselves (by installing silly OSes or otherwise) do so without us worrying unduly about making even their stupidest actions safe -- it is not worth the effort for us to cripple the device too much for safety (or even spend time thinking about Windows and Android).
I have argued elsewhere that the use of software (outside a sandbox), and indeed hardware, involves an element of trust unless one audits everything oneself. I am lazy, so I choose to trust certain software not to betray me, particularly that software which is theoretically easily auditible and may well have been investigated by others, so FOSS is more likely to get my trust than other software. Some software, though, I strongly expect to be suspect, including most proprietary/partially-proprietary/single-entity-controlled software, so I avoid them: this includes Windows, Mac OS and Android.
I have argued elsewhere that the use of software (outside a sandbox), and indeed hardware, involves an element of trust unless one audits everything oneself. I am lazy, so I choose to trust certain software not to betray me, particularly that software which is theoretically easily auditible and may well have been investigated by others, so FOSS is more likely to get my trust than other software. Some software, though, I strongly expect to be suspect, including most proprietary/partially-proprietary/single-entity-controlled software, so I avoid them: this includes Windows, Mac OS and Android.
If we're limited to one, I would suggest a spring-loaded/pop-up camera in the top of the display that can be rotated to face either direction
(this also takes care of privacy/security concerns)
rygD
Nihilistic Mystic
Best answer.If we're limited to one, I would suggest a spring-loaded/pop-up camera in the top of the display that can be rotated to face either direction
(this also takes care of privacy/security concerns)
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