Should Pyra have a Camera?

[_wb_]

Yes, that is the poll question, but I suspect that most people might still interpret the question as "do you want the pyra to have a camera?", like in the first post of this thread.

I want the Pyra to have a camera, but I don't think it should have one. I voted "Yes" but others will vote "No" in my case.

Some people may not want to have a camera, but still think it should have one: e.g. if you always carry an expensive great camera with you anyway, you don't need your Pyra to have a camera too, but you may still think that it should have one because you think the feature is needed/helps to make it sell better, become more popular, attract more devs etc. Such people can also vote either "Yes" or "No", depending on how they interpret the question.

To be sure about what the actual opinions are, we would need a new poll, with at least these five options:

- Want it to have a camera, ED should put a camera in it.

- Want it to have a camera, but ED should not put a camera in it (too risky/whatever).

- Don't want it to have a camera, but ED should still put a camera in it (for others).

- Don't want it to have a camera, and ED should not put a camera in it.

- Want it to not have a camera (e.g. because security policies at my company would forbid me to use the device).

 

[Fzero]

- Want it to have a camera, if it is also functional as a phone.

I'd be that option, I'm not too bothered about a camera, if I still have to carry my mobile phone around everywhere, as my phone has a decent enough camera.

But if Pyra could replace my phone, in terms of making calls, then I would not need to even own a mobile phone, and I would then really need a camera.

Basically, at all times, I need on my person a means of making calls, taking photos, playing some Sega classics [without touchscreen only input]

 

[God Ginrai]

I remember several augmented reality games for iOS (and Android, one is even from google directly), both plattforms with a far lower barriers to develop games for, and both having a lot of small teams making games, but the success of ar games is still not noticable. And I guess it won't in the near future, but not because developers hesitating to do it, or devs not beeing imaginative enough, but simply because the use cases for it are rather limited nowadays.

You do realize that you are now trying to use a platform where the majority of games can't keep people interested for more than 5 minutes to make a claim that the same is true for Augmented Reality games. That's basically stacking the odds in your favor.

Also, when did Google make an AR game?

-God Ginrai

 

[Yoyobuae]

I disagree. They'll just continue buying newer smartphones. Why? Because they don't need a pocketable PC, nor gaming controls, nor keyboard, etc. They are perfectly happy with what Android/iOS/whatever offers them. A camera won't change that.

O rly? People here are already deciding/contemplating to replace their phone with the Pyra like me, so there's


that.

IMO, those are the exception rather than the norm. I think most would just keep their phones current phones and just refrain from buying a new fancier one, and use Pyra for gaming/internet/etc.

And carrying a phone and Pandora ain't too bad, the carry case can fit them both:

And still fits (barely) in my pocket. :lol:

Doesn't really make sense to pick the device with the least features for around the same price.

Amount of features is less important than kind of features. That's Pandora's/Pyra's strength, having features most other devices lack (even if it lacks features most other devices have). It is different in an open sourcy/hackably kind of way, and that's why I love it.

 

[Natsu]

We aren't talking about a completely new technology here. Applications that use the camera will all be ports from system were these feature already existed previously. And usecases for cameras are already quite settled (taking picture, video conferencing, games), so I doubt we will see much Pyra specific development here (other than making small adjustments during the porting process).


On a only related (not topic specific) note: You seem quite convinced that a lot of "grunt" work on the system and software is already a given, why is that ?

Kind of weird to ask me why I think it's already a given when you said all it takes is porting.


Anyway, well, if a camera is built-in, I expect it to at least work. 

That's like ED selling the Pyra and saying you need to get the screen to work yourself.

I rarely use the camera on my cellphone, and usually its some form of "lazy notetaking" (like flipping an IP-Phone upside down, and making a picture of its MAC-address). Don't see why that should change in future

Well, at least it would be there when you need it.

- Want it to have a camera, ED should put a camera in it.


- Want it to have a camera, but ED should not put a camera in it (too risky/whatever).


- Don't want it to have a camera, but ED should still put a camera in it (for others).


- Don't want it to have a camera, and ED should not put a camera in it.


- Want it to not have a camera (e.g. because security policies at my company would forbid me to use the device).

- Due to paranoia


- Would want one if there's a cover attachment.


Or something like that.

And carrying a phone and Pandora ain't too bad, the carry case can fit them both:

And still fits (barely) in my pocket. :lol:

lol


That was to counter the point about how Pyra is not as pocketable than a phone. It's more pocketable than carry both


and especially with a case.

Amount of features is less important than kind of features. That's Pandora's/Pyra's strength, having features most other devices lack (even if it lacks features most other devices have). It is different in an open sourcy/hackably kind of way, and that's why I love it.

Would be stronger if it had the other features as well. I mean it's like 1 or 2 features


away of not having to carrying two devices.

 

[Yoyobuae]

We aren't talking about a completely new technology here. Applications that use the camera will all be ports from system were these feature already existed previously. And usecases for cameras are already quite settled (taking picture, video conferencing, games), so I doubt we will see much Pyra specific development here (other than making small adjustments during the porting process).

On a only related (not topic specific) note: You seem quite convinced that a lot of "grunt" work on the system and software is already a given, why is that ?

Kind of weird to ask me why I think it's already a given when you said all it takes is porting.
Anyway, well, if a camera is built-in, I expect it to at least work.

That's like ED selling the Pyra and saying you need to get the screen to work yourself.

From what I understand, notaz is the guy working on supporting all the hardware from the software side. And I also heard him say he is already pretty busy with the current amount of work (and he has things other than Pyra worry about too).
So no, it is not granted that everything would work "out of the box". Yes, critical things like the display, input, etc will likely work from the start (because they would be prioritized).

But support for additional features might end up being pushed back a bit until there's time to address them. It is possible that if camera was included, the support for it would either be lacking at start and only fully implemented some time after.

Amount of features is less important than kind of features. That's Pandora's/Pyra's strength, having features most other devices lack (even if it lacks features most other devices have). It is different in an open sourcy/hackably kind of way, and that's why I love it.

Would be stronger if it had the other features as well. I mean it's like 1 or 2 featuresaway of not having to carrying two devices.

I have no idea how much work would it be to add these "1 or 2 features" now. I imagine it would take significant work, may cause delays, increase costs, etc.
If it were as easy to add as you paint it, then why were they excluded from the design so far?

I also though about replacing my phone with Pyra when it is finally released. But I decided against it because I think Pyra wouldn't make an acceptable phone. It it won't "just work" like one expects phones to be like.

 

[Natsu]

I have no idea how much work would it be to add these "1 or 2 features" now. I imagine it would take significant work, may cause delays, increase costs, etc.

If it were as easy to add as you paint it, then why were they excluded from the design so far?

I never said it was going to be easy. I'm in the same boat as you are about how much work it will be.That said, I don't expect it to be any harder than any other features they are working on now.

I also though about replacing my phone with Pyra when it is finally released. But I decided against it because I think Pyra wouldn't make an acceptable phone. It it won't "just work" like one expects phones to be like.

Well, we can't know if it will be or at least close enough until it's finished.

 

[God Ginrai]

Well, we can't know if it will be or at least close enough until it's finished.

Actually, we can. EvilDragon, notaz, and gta04 will not be putting any effort in getting the software written to get it actually working as a cell phone. Therefore, the only way that you will get that functionality is if someone codes it on their own. This would not happen until sometime after release. So like Yoyobuae said, it won't "just work".

-God Ginrai

 

[Natsu]

Actually, we can. EvilDragon, notaz, and gta04 will not be putting any effort in getting the software written to get it actually working as a cell phone. Therefore, the only way that you will get that functionality is if someone codes it on their own. This would not happen until sometime after release. So like Yoyobuae said, it won't "just work".

-God Ginrai

So, they going to pay for something they aren't even bother to get it to work themselves before or even soon after the release? You know this how?
I don't think that what he meant by "just work". Meaning, he thinks it wouldn't work as good as a regular phone.

 

[Yoyobuae]

So, they going to pay for something they aren't even bother to get it to work themselves before or sometime after the release? You know this how?

The 3G UTMS data for internet access would probably work (at least on some countries). Phone functionality is a different story. At least that's what I've heard (read).

I don't think that what he meant by "just work". Meaning, he thinks it wouldn't work as good as a regular phone.

If it doesn't work at all, then it is impossible it would work as good as a regular phone.

 

[Natsu]

The 3G UTMS data for internet access would probably work (at least on some countries). Phone functionality is a different story. At least that's what I've heard (read).

I never got that impression from them while reading about this.

If it doesn't work at all, then it is impossible it would work as good as a regular phone.

Under the assumption that it will at least work.
Almost feels like there is a force intentionally trying to stray people away from the

3G/4G Pyra.

 

[dgame]

What does a camera have to do with the Pyra being used as a phone?

My cell phone does not have a camera and it works fine.

 

[Natsu]

What does a camera have to do with the Pyra being used as a phone?

My cell phone does not have a camera and it works fine.

We are really talking about two different topics, but one complements the other such that most peoplewould possibly dump their phones for the Pyra.

 

[Kiga]

I don't understand why ED don't want a camera. It's a shame, A LOT of people would want to use the Pyra to replace their smartphone, Pyra would be a smartphone killer since it can do all a smartphone better and with enough battery, except... a camera.

I disagree. They'll just continue buying newer smartphones. Why? Because they don't need a pocketable PC, nor gaming controls, nor keyboard, etc. They are perfectly happy with what Android/iOS/whatever offers them. A camera won't change that.

Besides, feature creep is bad.

They aren't perfectly happy because smartphone are shit. You can play games etc but it only last 2h, Pyra will be a usable smartphone.

 

I don't understand why ED don't want a camera. It's a shame, A LOT of people would want to use the Pyra to replace their smartphone, Pyra would be a smartphone killer since it can do all a smartphone better and with enough battery, except... a camera.

I don't understand why some people try to dream up a market while there actually is none. Why on "insert superhuman beeing of your choice here"s green earth would a lot of people replace their smartphones with a Pyra ?
It's not as pocketable as a phone, will be rather cumbersome to hold (even if natsus idea would be integrated), and even more cumbersome to use: you have to open the device if you want to see who is calling or if you want to dial a number, send a text message, browse your contact list, etc. And this probably won't even be "just" possible as someone would need to at least port the appropriate software to the Pyra. But even if someone steps up to do the job, why do you think it will give people a better experience in that particular field than a smartphone ?. And what about someone calling ? You would need a dedicated button for answering the phone - I know there are shoulder buttons on the outside, but you then need to implement a locking mechanism, so they don't accidentially get triggered, which in turns needs adjustments in the OS as this surely conflicts with the original intention of the Pyra: beeing an UMPC.


What about the price tag ? Why should "a lot" of people pay 500+ Euros for something that has already outdated hardware by the time it gets to the market, and its phone functionality is only a byproduct ? While they can have a phone that does the job better, has better hardware, and buying it probably won't "hurt" as much as they probably pay it through their contract.


The only reason I could think of is that they want to support the idea, and/or are interested in the community aspect. But how many of those are really there ? There is only a handful (5 or 6 ?)of people in that forum that stated they have interest in such a functionality, and I can think of only two that are actually trying to keep the topic alive. Should the Pyra team really go through all the costs (money, time, resources) just to please a super minorty in a niche?

Why I think it will give a better experience? It will give a far better experience just because of the battery life.

I ain't talking about mainstream. I talk about people who would want to buy the Pyra but will not because they would not see the reason to buy a 600 euros device which they will not use as often as a 600€ smartphone. That's why I think a lot of potential new users will think "oh shit why it haven't a camera, well I will buy an android instead".

If Pyra have a camera, people will be able to think "yes it's 600 euros but it will replace my smartphone and do whatever a smartphone can do better with a real battery life".

 

[Yoyobuae]

I'm not entirely sure, but I think that a 600 EUR smartphone would probably have a much better camera than a 600 EUR Pyra.

The big phone companies invest a lot into perfecting the camera for their flagship phones (which is what ~600 EUR would buy). Pyra won't have nearly as much effort put into it's camera.

If the picture quality is not an issue, then a cheaper phone together with Pyra would function just as well (except for having to carry a bit more).

I wish someone would make a cheap minimalistic phone, which is only meant as a companion to a bigger non-phone device (ie. tablet, Pyra, etc).

 

[WizardStan]

The 3G UTMS data for internet access would probably work (at least on some countries). Phone functionality is a different story. At least that's what I've heard (read).

I never got that impression from them while reading about this.

All they've said is that it'll be there. The GPS and UMTS module are a TTY device with a standard set of AT command, the "voice" part of the UMTS is a standard audio device. The drivers will exist, but beyond that they've said nothing about actual phone software, the code that handles "connect to tower" and "dial this number" and "is there an incoming call?" messages, and loops the Pyra audio device to the UMTS audio device. It's going to be up to us users to put such a thing together.

 

[God Ginrai]

The 3G UTMS data for internet access would probably work (at least on some countries). Phone functionality is a different story. At least that's what I've heard (read).

I never got that impression from them while reading about this.

Well, you should have. The only reason we know phone would be possible at all is because WizardStan (or was it _wb_?) pointed out that all we needed to do to make the hardware capable of making phone calls was to add some extra traces/wires and gta04 confirmed that he would wire that up so that there was no barrier on the hardware side for those who wanted to use the Pyra as a phone. That has nothing to do with the software side. And trust me, it's a bitch to get the software side of things working for phone calls. Just take a look at the OpenWebOS project. They had to adopt libhybris to get the phone functionality to work, and even then, it's still not suitable for calls yet, because there is no phone app coded for OWO that interfaces with the libhybris driver yet.

-God Ginrai

 

[moxie]

This thread is now officially a field full of dead horses. Can't we somehow bring the swivel hinge thread and the lets-sue-link-thread here so we can be effective in beating them?

 

[FBnil]

I wish someone would make a cheap minimalistic phone, which is only meant as a companion to a bigger non-phone device (ie. tablet, Pyra, etc).

Have a look at this:

http://www.lidl.de/de/silvercrest-telefonhoerer/p109651-b215

Its 8 euro. It features the apple connector, but has 3 extra connectors, for nokia, and of course, to undo the apple connector to the ISO standard that the openPandora has... and it works on it too...

 

[TrashyMG]

a field full of dead horses

Goodbye Horses

https://www.youtube.com/embed/X_DVS_303kQ?feature=oembed