Should Pyra have a Camera?

[TeDaDeS]

Sure they could add it (I would use it also) but in the end the Pyra would be a gaming device, it is not required for playing games to have a camera.
So if it wouldn't be on the Pyra it would still be a neat device, if it would feature the camera it would be a bonus.

 

[God Ginrai]

Sure they could add it (I would use it also) but in the end the Pyra would be a gaming device, it is not required for playing games to have a camera. So if it wouldn't be on the Pyra it would still be a neat device, if it would feature the camera it would be a bonus.

Not required, yes, but it opens up new gaming possibilities. I've mentioned before in this topic that having an outward-facing camera would open up the ability to have Augmented Reality games on the Pyra.

-God Ginrai

 

[Kiga]

but in the end the Pyra would be a gaming device, it is not required for playing games to have a camera.

Pyra would be much more than a gaming device: a full umpc and for some people a phone.

I don't understand why ED don't want a camera. It's a shame, A LOT of people would want to use the Pyra to replace their smartphone, Pyra would be a smartphone killer since it can do all a smartphone better and with enough battery, except... a camera.

I guess it's in ED's strategy to keep it as spare feature for the next Pyra and also be able to put a good camera.

 

[TrashyMG]

I don't understand why ED don't want a camera.

It's currently an unnecessary item that is a nightmare to find a place for in the design.. The current base of the unit is already way too crowded, Placing it on the LCD lid part adds a bit of complexity to the design and potential extra points of failure. I don't think cost was really a big concern in EDs choice..

And when I mean an unnecessary item, I mean the lack of a camera doesn't take anything away from what is considered a Pandora-like design as it never had a built on camera.

Like I said before, I don't necessarily dislike the idea of having a camera, I can acknowledge why it's not being considered.

 

[_jr_]

^ exactly. And you can interpret this poll anyway you want, but there are 40% more no votes than yes votes.

 

[Natsu]

And when I mean an unnecessary item, I mean the lack of a camera doesn't take anything away from what is considered a Pandora-like design as it never had a built on camera.

So,what are you trying to say here? We shouldn't add new things? Might as well just keep selling the Pandora and forget about the Pyra then.
Yeah, it adds to it. Just like all these other new features.

Just seems like a silly argument.

^ exactly. And you can interpret this poll anyway you want, but there are 40% more no votes than yes votes.

40%?

 

[TrashyMG]

And when I mean an unnecessary item, I mean the lack of a camera doesn't take anything away from what is considered a Pandora-like design as it never had a built on camera.

So,what are you trying to say here? We shouldn't add new things? Might as well just keep selling the Pandora and forget about the Pyra then.

Yeah, it adds to it. Just like all these other new features.


Just seem like a silly argument.

No, you're taking what I meant out of context and then overreacting to it. All I'm saying the lack of a camera isn't taking away anything.

 

[Natsu]

No, you're taking what I meant out of context and then overreacting to it. All I'm saying the lack of a camera isn't taking away anything.

I'm overreacting and yet you sized 5? lolI'm just saying, your criteria for what's "unnecessary" is silly and can imply to anything.

Saying a thing doesn't take away anything isn't an argument against adding it.

 

[Yoyobuae]

I don't understand why ED don't want a camera. It's a shame, A LOT of people would want to use the Pyra to replace their smartphone, Pyra would be a smartphone killer since it can do all a smartphone better and with enough battery, except... a camera.

I disagree. They'll just continue buying newer smartphones. Why? Because they don't need a pocketable PC, nor gaming controls, nor keyboard, etc. They are perfectly happy with what Android/iOS/whatever offers them. A camera won't change that.

Besides, feature creep is bad.

 

[God Ginrai]

40%?

Number of Yes votes Y: 81

Number of No votes N: 113

40% of Y = 0.4Y = 0.4 * 81 = 32.4 ~= 32

81 + 32 = 113 == Y + 40% of Y = N

-God Ginrai

 

[TrashyMG]

I'm overreacting and yet you sized 5?  

Well you don't seem to comprehend things at normal font size, so I figured bigger may help.  

Saying a thing doesn't take away anything isn't an argument against adding it.  

Okay, but why is it so hard to understand my other points which backed up what I said.. So If you have to make a hard choices like ED/gta04 do on design matters, is it not unreasonable for them to not implement a new feature if it's the choice between keeping a much more desired feature or you know something more critical like making the battery fit?

 

[Natsu]

I disagree. They'll just continue buying newer smartphones. Why? Because they don't need a pocketable PC, nor gaming controls, nor keyboard, etc. They are perfectly happy with what Android/iOS/whatever offers them. A camera won't change that.

O rly? People here are already deciding/contemplating to replace their phone with the Pyra like me, so there's


that.


Doesn't really make sense to pick the device with the least features for around the same price.

Well you don't seem to comprehend things at normal font size, so I figured bigger may help.

Well, that's not a condescending response at all and from a Mod, no less.

Okay, but why is it so hard to understand my other points which backed up what I said..

Your other points are

The current base of the unit is already way too crowded,

Like I said, I don't even know if there is room. I'm hoping it is. If it is, I didn't mind


if the camera is on the back or bottom.

Placing it on the LCD lid part adds a bit of complexity to the design and potential extra points of failure.

Bit of complexity is a fair point, but ,while I know they are bigger, I never had a camera fail from Nintendo.

So If you have to make a hard choices like ED/gta04 do on design matters, is it not unreasonable for them to not implement a new feature if it's the choice between keeping a much more desired feature or you know something more critical like making the battery fit?

Ideally the camera would fit despite a "much more desired" feature or making the battery fit.

 

[thatgui]

Not required, yes, but it opens up new gaming possibilities. I've mentioned before in this topic that having an outward-facing camera would open up the ability to have Augmented Reality games on the Pyra.

Gaming devices with cameras are out for quite a while now, but there aren't many (at least that I know of) augmented reality games that really keep people interested for more than five minutes.

I don't understand why ED don't want a camera. It's a shame, A LOT of people would want to use the Pyra to replace their smartphone, Pyra would be a smartphone killer since it can do all a smartphone better and with enough battery, except... a camera.

I don't understand why some people try to dream up a market while there actually is none. Why on "insert superhuman beeing of your choice here"s green earth would a lot of people replace their smartphones with a Pyra ?It's not as pocketable as a phone, will be rather cumbersome to hold (even if natsus idea would be integrated), and even more cumbersome to use: you have to open the device if you want to see who is calling or if you want to dial a number, send a text message, browse your contact list, etc. And this probably won't even be "just" possible as someone would need to at least port the appropriate software to the Pyra. But even if someone steps up to do the job, why do you think it will give people a better experience in that particular field than a smartphone ?. And what about someone calling ? You would need a dedicated button for answering the phone - I know there are shoulder buttons on the outside, but you then need to implement a locking mechanism, so they don't accidentially get triggered, which in turns needs adjustments in the OS as this surely conflicts with the original intention of the Pyra: beeing an UMPC.

What about the price tag ? Why should "a lot" of people pay 500+ Euros for something that has already outdated hardware by the time it gets to the market, and its phone functionality is only a byproduct ? While they can have a phone that does the job better, has better hardware, and buying it probably won't "hurt" as much as they probably pay it through their contract.

The only reason I could think of is that they want to support the idea, and/or are interested in the community aspect. But how many of those are really there ? There is only a handful (5 or 6 ?)of people in that forum that stated they have interest in such a functionality, and I can think of only two that are actually trying to keep the topic alive. Should the Pyra team really go through all the costs (money, time, resources) just to please a super minorty in a niche?

 

[Natsu]

Gaming devices with cameras are out for quite a while now, but there aren't many (at least that I know of) augmented reality games that really keep people interested for more than five minutes.

Well, that's not really the point. The point was that the camera can be use for gaming.It's up to a dev to make them well and user to get hook on them.

Chibi-Robo seems interesting.

I don't understand why some people try to dream up a market while there actually is none. Why on "insert superhuman beeing of your choice here"s green earth would a lot of people replace their smartphones with a Pyra ?

It's not as pocketable as a phone, will be rather cumbersome to hold (even if natsus idea would be integrated), and even more cumbersome to use: you have to open the device if you want to see who is calling or if you want to dial a number, send a text message, browse your contact list, etc. And this probably won't even be "just" possible as someone would need to at least port the appropriate software to the Pyra. But even if someone steps up to do the job, why do you think it will give people a better experience in that particular field than a smartphone ?. And what about someone calling ? You would need a dedicated button for answering the phone - I know there are shoulder buttons on the outside, but you then need to implement a locking mechanism, so they don't accidentially get triggered, which in turns needs adjustments in the OS as this surely conflicts with the original intention of the Pyra: beeing an UMPC.

What about the price tag ? Why should "a lot" of people pay 500+ Euros for something that has already outdated hardware by the time it gets to the market, and its phone functionality is only a byproduct ? While they can have a phone that does the job better, has better hardware, and buying it probably won't "hurt" as much as they probably pay it through their contract.

The only reason I could think of is that they want to support the idea, and/or are interested in the community aspect. But how many of those are really there ? There is only a handful (5 or 6 ?)of people in that forum that stated they have interest in such a functionality, and I can think of only two that are actually trying to keep the topic alive. Should the Pyra team really go through all the costs (money, time, resources) just to please a super minorty in a niche?

Well, "a lot" is subjective here. We can't really know until it's out. Although he did sound kind of overoptimistic there. Sorry, I didn't know looking, action (to text, to hang or pick up) and/or put Pyra to ear was so much trouble. I never said it would give a better experience, but I think it would be a better trade off than carrying both Pyra and a phone. It's really not that hard to hold the Pandora one handed while close. The SOC isn't final, but let's say it is, the SOC is still good and it still have more features than a phone. SOC can change to something better at anytime. Maybe even something "on time" with other devices. Don't really know what the audience is until it is out there with or without these features.

Phones aside. I seen people with small and giant tablets use them as a cameras, so I know the camera will be a nice and used feature.

 

[God Ginrai]

O rly? People here are already deciding/contemplating to replace their phone with the Pyra like me, so there's

that.

 The number of said people are very few. You and Kiga are the only ones I can even remember.

Gaming devices with cameras are out for quite a while now, but there aren't many (at least that I know of) augmented reality games that really keep people interested for more than five minutes.

That is true. However, honestly, I believe that's mainly due to two things.

• Lack of Experience: While Augmented Reality itself has been around for a while, augmented reality in gaming has been a very risky venture. You had to rely on the fact that customers would buy the peripherals. (playstation eye, microsoft kinect, etc.) As such, Game Developers rarely made games for them, so they haven't really experimented with the medium. And as such, they see other kinds of games as safer options. This is one of the reasons why Microsoft includes the Kinect by default in the XBox One, to give the Kinect a large install base so that developers will feel more confident that people may buy their games targetted for it.
• Too Many Alternate Features: The 3DS and the Vita both have cameras, but they both also added tons of extra features that developers have to get used to at the same time. (For the 3DS: 3D screen, circle pad, and accelorometer; For the Vita: rear touchpad, touchscreen, sixaxis, compass, and dual analogs) In this case, most developers would try to use the features they have the most experience with (motion controls, touchscreen mechanics) rather than exploring new features.

-God Ginrai

 

[thatgui]

Well, that's not really the point. The point was that the camera can be use for gaming.

It's up to a dev to make them well and user to get hook on them.

What good is an argument if it has no pratical value ? The camera could also be used for optical analysis of materials/environments/etc, but without software that uses it, I find it rather pointless to use it as an argument.
Altough I would rather see a Pyra without a camera, I can see that there is a big group in the community which would use it, so I stick to his neutralness:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ

Well, "a lot" is subjective here. We can't really know until it's out. Although he did sound kind of overoptimistic there. Sorry, I didn't know looking, action (to text, to hang or pick up) and/or put Pyra to ear was so much trouble. I never said it would give a better experience, but I think it would be a better trade off than carrying both Pyra and a phone. It's really not that hard to hold the Pandora one handed while close. [...] I seen people with small and giant tablets use them as a cameras, so I know the camera will be a nice and used feature.

I was specifically adressing kigas comment on the Pyra beeing "the superphone", not the particular feature "camera".

Didn't really know what the audience is until it is out there with or without these features.

While that is certainly true, thats no base for planning a product. Never brought a product to market myself, but I guess without a clear opinion/picture on what features I want to give my product and what user, I want to appeal to, with it, my product won't be happening at all.

That is true. However, honestly, I believe that's mainly due to two things.

1. Lack of Experience:...
   Too Many Alternate Features:...I remember several augmented reality games for iOS (and Android, one is even from google directly), both plattforms with a far lower barriers to develop games for, and both having a lot of small teams making games, but the success of ar games is still not noticable. And I guess it won't in the near future, but not because developers hesitating to do it, or devs not beeing imaginative enough, but simply because the use cases for it are rather limited nowadays.

 

[Natsu]

What good is an argument if it has no pratical value ? The camera could also be used for optical analysis of materials/environments/etc, but without software that uses it, I find it rather pointless to use it as an argument.


Altough I would rather see a Pyra without a camera, I can see that there is a big group in the community which would use it, so I stick to his neutralness:,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ

OK, but the hardware has to be there first before software development can even begin.


Why wouldn't you want a camera?

 

[thatgui]

OK, but the hardware has to be there first before software development can even begin.

We aren't talking about a completely new technology here. Applications that use the camera will all be ports from system were these feature already existed previously. And usecases for cameras are already quite settled (taking picture, video conferencing, games), so I doubt we will see much Pyra specific development here (other than making small adjustments during the porting process).
On a only related (not topic specific) note: You seem quite convinced that a lot of "grunt" work on the system and software is already a given, why is that ?

Why wouldn't you want a camera?

I rarely use the camera on my cellphone, and usually its some form of "lazy notetaking" (like flipping an IP-Phone upside down, and making a picture of its MAC-address). Don't see why that should change in future

 

[_wb_]

I understand the arguments along the lines that adding a camera is a risk for ED since it complicates design (it is not easy to find a good place to put it), it's one more thing that can go wrong, it increases the price a bit, and it may cause bad reviews because the camera would most likely be quite crappy (although that last argument works both ways, there could just as well be bad reviews because it does not have a camera at all).

I don't understand the arguments along the lines that 60% of the users would not use the feature so it's not needed, most games don't use a camera, and other devices have better cameras. By that logic, we can get rid of a lot of keys on the keyboard (e.g. backtick) since only a minority would use them, and we shouldn't have a keyboard at all since most games don't use the keyboard and full-size keyboards are better anyway.

 

[_jr_]

The poll question is not whether one would use it, but whether Pyra *should* have it. 60 % of the answers think that some other feature (be it price, development time/risk, robustness, number of external USB ports, whatever) that is more important to them would suffer as a consequence of including a camera. And that is all this discussion is about. For 40% the camera is worth the risk, for 60% it isn't and they prefer if no time/money be spent on it. Independent of whether they would use the camera or not. If it had one, there naturally will be use cases for pretty much everyone, but that doesn't imply including a camera is the right decision.