Screw decisions for assembly

[moxie]

I see nutters everywhere...

 

[Binky]

Get one of these then:

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/rolson-58-part-ratchet-handle-screwdriver-bit-and-socket-set-n02cw

The ratchet driver is $#!T, but the bits are good enough for moderate use.

 

[WizardStan]

Yes. But those are a bit cumbersome for the dimensions usually encountered in electronics, which is where all the nuts I see are

Sounds like you really need a socket set then. You're encountering situations where you need the right tool, don't have the right tool, and then blaming the nut because you don't have the right tool.Seriously, you can get a reasonable set for about $15, it's a reasonable investment just so you don't get frustrated trying to get a grip on slippery nuts.

 

[slaeshjag]

As said, I encounter them less than once a year, usually when disassembling stuff. Nuts are almost never used in electronics. The one thing I can even remember seeing them in is inside really old harddrives and holding mosfets to heatsinks in powersupplies. If I get a set like that, I'll just lose all the bits before I find a use for them. Been there, done that multiple times.

 

[WizardStan]

Ok, so, you've stripped more nuts than screws, but you encounter nuts less than once a year, let's round that to exactly once a year. You're 21 years old, let's assume you've been into electronics since you were 11 just to give us a nice even 10 years. Let's further assume that not only do you only encounter a nut once a year but you've stripped every single one of them you've encountered. That's 10 nuts, which means in 10 years you've stripped fewer than 10 screws.

Dude, I probably stripped 10 screws (all of them Robertson) last year alone. You've got nothing to complain about.

 

[Yoyobuae]

Its always worth getting the right tool for the job.

Doesn't that also applies to screws on Pandora. With proper sized screw driver and care the risk of stripping the screw would be minimal.

IMO it would be enough if the plastic on Pyra is stronger (or at least as strong as the 1GHz Pandora which I have) and people used right size screw driver. Maybe also changing to screws which fit a more typical sized screw driver would help (Pandora's screws are on the small side of the spectrum).

 

[WizardStan]

With proper sized screw driver and care the risk of stripping the screw would be minimal.

Proper size is easy, care is not. In order to remove a Robertson screw you need downward force while twisting, which then also produces an upward force: you are effectively applying twice as much force (at least) on the threads as required for any other screw. The required force goes up substantially if it sticks for any reason. And since you don't know whether it'll stick or not until you start removing it you have a choice: put as much force into it as you can or have the screw slip a couple times before you finally get enough force to grip. Overtime either the screw will strip from slippage or the threads will strip from excess force and no amount of care will prevent that.Right tool for the job: RobertsonPhillips screws are not the right tool in the first place.

edit: Corrected screw type, not sure how I confused them

 

[Yoyobuae]

 And since you don't know whether it'll stick or not until you start removing it ...

But one can "feel" when the driver starts slipping from the screw, before any damage is caused to the screw head. Then it's just matter of working out the right amount of force, which requires some patience and several tries. That's what I meant with "proper care".

The required force goes up substantially if it sticks for any reason.

I think this is the real problem: screws sticking to the plastic. Maybe the screw well wasn't wide enough, or maybe the plastic holds the screw too tight. Couldn't those issues be addressed by changing the screw well, the screw thread or maybe adding some lubrication to the screw before installing it?

The screws on Pandora seem to require excessive amount force to extract (i mean, they are holding a plastic case together, not the wheels of a car :lol: ). If that amount could be reduced to more reasonable levels then screw stripping issues would mostly go away.

 

[WizardStan]

Couldn't those issues be addressed by changing the screw well, the screw thread or maybe adding some lubrication to the screw before installing it?

Maybe. They could also be addressed with a different screwhead.

several tries

And every try strips the head just a little bit more.

 

[Yoyobuae]

several tries

And every try strips the head just a little bit more.

Not if there's zero or near zero slippage.

Couldn't those issues be addressed by changing the screw well, the screw thread or maybe adding some lubrication to the screw before installing it?

Maybe. They could also be addressed with a different screwhead.

If a different screwhead is used then the respective screw driver should be included with the device (could be a small L shaped one).

With common screw heads it is likely that the user will be able to easily find the right screw driver. But with other screw head types (and there are many) there's little chance the user will already have the proper driver.

Using screws with some non-common head type and not including the respective tool reads a bit too much like "we don't want you opening this device", which is not really true for Pandora/Pyra.

I personally would prefer to just keep a common screw head and just make the screws require less force to remove.

 

[WizardStan]

Not if there's zero or near zero slippage

You have some way of feeling that a screw is slipping without it actually slipping?

Using screws with some non-common head type

You've made quite the leap of logic here, from simply discussing that a different screw head would solve the problem to that screwhead being non-standard. RobertsonPhillips is not the definitive common screwhead, there are many. You're acting like we don't have choices here, choices which have been proposed: PhillipsRobertson, hex, and torx are all good suggestions of common screwheads that would solve the problem.
edit: Corrected screw type, not sure how I confused them

 

[Yoyobuae]

Not if there's zero or near zero slippage

You have some way of feeling that a screw is slipping without it actually slipping?

The driver needs to move "up" before slipping out.

Using screws with some non-common head type

You've made quite the leap of logic here, from simply discussing that a different screw head would solve the problem to that screwhead being non-standard. Robertson is not the definitive common screwhead, there are many. You're acting like we don't have choices here, choices which have been proposed: Phillips, hex, and torx are all good suggestions of common screwheads that would solve the problem.

Why do you keep mentioning Robertson screws, anyway? I have Phillips screws on my Pandora.
If Pandoras had Robertson screws before then I'm definitely in favor of moving to Phillips screws instead.

 

[Binky]

If the two priorities are that the screw must not be stripped by careless extraction, and that it must be removed with a commonly available tool, I suggest the use of screws with cylindrical heads that accept flat-bladed screwdrivers. This provides a large area for the screwdriver tip to push against, while completely eliminating any tendency for the 'driver to cam out in the abcence of downwards pressure.

 

[WizardStan]

Why do you keep mentioning Robertson screw, anyway? I have Phillips screws on my Pandora

Because I'm an idiot that got the two confused. No idea how that happened.

The driver needs to move "up" before slipping out.

That's not how Phillips screwheads work. They don't just magically rise up, they slide because of torque. If you're applying enough torque that it slips up then you're applying enough force to strip the screw.

If Pandoras had Robertson screws before then I'm definitely in favor of moving to Phillips screws instead

What do you have to offer to counter the last 5 pages of discussion about what is wrong with Phillips screwheads?

 

[God Ginrai]

With common screw heads it is likely that the user will be able to easily find the right screw driver. But with other screw head types (and there are many) there's little chance the user will already have the proper driver.

Using screws with some non-common head type and not including the respective tool reads a bit too much like "we don't want you opening this device", which is not really true for Pandora/Pyra.

 Hence why I suggested using hex nuts. Common, and less likely to strip.

Not if there's zero or near zero slippage

You have some way of feeling that a screw is slipping without it actually slipping?

The driver needs to move "up" before slipping out.

 When it is moving "up", it is already slipping. Hence, the damage is already starting to be done.

Why do you keep mentioning Robertson screws, anyway? I have Phillips screws on my Pandora.

Does it matter? Phillips are designed to slip when you over-torque them. That means that slipping would happen more often with this screw, which will cause the head to strip.

-God Ginrai

 

[Yoyobuae]

If Pandoras had Robertson screws before then I'm definitely in favor of moving to Phillips screws instead

What do you have to offer to counter the last 5 pages of discussion about what is wrong with Phillips screwheads?

That maybe the screw head is not the real problem.
Out of all the plastic devices which I have had to disassemble, Pandora is the only one which required such high force to remove the screws. IMO, the screw stripping issues are only a symptom of this.

 

[God Ginrai]

Yet if you replace the screw and plastic with a screw and nut, you take damaging the case out of the equation, and reduce the chances of stripping anything.

-God Ginrai

 

[WizardStan]

That maybe the screw head is not the real problem.

Of course it isn't, the screw head is just one factor in the real problem.

the screw stripping issues are only a symptom of this

It's not a symptom, that is the problem. The real problem is simply that the screws are too easy to strip, either the head or the threads. The cause of that problem is kind of nebulous.Could be the problem is solved by changing the thread count, or the shape of the well, or adding lubricant, as you've suggested. We don't know if any of those things would help until they've been tried, and they could add an additional cost somewhere.

On the other hand, I can guarantee that changing from Phillips to basically anything else, while it may not completely solve the problem, it will at least help and costs exactly nothing extra.

Even if lube or different threads mostly solves the problem, it doesn't change the fact that Phillips slips by design: you're asking users to have a precision arm to remove the screw when basically any other screwhead would just be straight up easier.

 

[Yoyobuae]

Meh, as long as the driver is included with the device (or at least available at ED's shop), it can have whatever screw type. Just need a small L shaped driver of the right size. If that can be provided then fine, but if not then I'd prefer keeping phillips screws.

 

[_wb_]

Stretch goal: all backers get a custom stylus that has a normal stylus tip on one side and a screwdriver for whatever common-but-not-as-common-as-Phillips screws that hold the Pyra case together. Open up your device on-the-go!