Screw decisions for assembly

[Fzero]

Stretch goal: all backers get a custom stylus that has a normal stylus tip on one side and a screwdriver for whatever common-but-not-as-common-as-Phillips screws that hold the Pyra case together. Open up your device on-the-go!

This is what I commented on a while ago, when there was talk about the stylus. I really hope this could happen, though for me I would prefer the screws were your small Phillips style, as I would then always have a driver on me [in the form of the Pyra stylus] when needed to open up laptops and other things, like battery covers on the kids toys

 

[Grench]

Yet if you replace the screw and plastic with a screw and nut, you take damaging the case out of the equation, and reduce the chances of stripping anything.

-God Ginrai

And with nuts and bolts exposed on both sides, top and bottom, of the case you wind up making the Pyra look like Frankenstein's monster.  No thanks.

The Pandora had this about 80% right.  Screws from the case bottom going into receivers on the mid/keyboard layer.  What it got wrong was in implementation.  Screws were substandard and mismatched to the application.  The button top Philips heads were a touch too big in diameter for the recessed hole in the case.  Screws were expected to self-thread - and having fine threads were unable to carve sustainable or reusable threads into the soft case material.

Suggestion for the Pyra:

-Use the same concept - machine screws into the case material.

-Screw threads need to be coarse instead of fine.

-Mid/keyboard layer screw receivers/sockets need to be pre-tapped - a tap carves threads out of the stock material.

-Screw tops should be cap style (cylinders) with either hex or torx heads.  I prefer hex since it is ubiquitous - anyone who thinks they should mod hardware and doesn't have their own set of hex and torx drivers shouldn't be opening cases.

-High quality hex drive cap screws are about $0.08 per screw vs the ~$0.02 per screw that the ones used in the Pandora likely cost.  Spread over the screws used - this might raise the price of the end unit by $1 for screws.

-Case machining costs for tapping all of those screw thread holes - that is the big question.  I have no reference point - what does the case manufacturer charge for tap/thread work into the case material?

We don't need to reinvent the wheel.  We need to advance the design.

 

[God Ginrai]

And with nuts and bolts exposed on both sides, top and bottom, of the case you wind up making the Pyra look like Frankenstein's monster.  No thanks.

 As I mentioned earlier, (and you seem to have conveniently ignored) you can hide them with rubber covers.

-God Ginrai

 

[Grench]

And with nuts and bolts exposed on both sides, top and bottom, of the case you wind up making the Pyra look like Frankenstein's monster.  No thanks.

 
As I mentioned earlier, (and you seem to have conveniently ignored) you can hide them with rubber covers.

-God Ginrai

Rubber covers popping up seemingly at random around the keyboard area?  No thanks.  There are better options.

 

[levi]

-Screw tops should be cap style (cylinders) with either hex or torx heads. I prefer hex since it is ubiquitous - anyone who thinks they should mod hardware and doesn't have their own set of hex and torx drivers shouldn't be opening cases.


..snip...


-Case machining costs for tapping all of those screw thread holes - that is the big question. I have no reference point - what does the case manufacturer charge for tap/thread work into the case material?

As I mentioned before, the screws in my Pandora are not self-tapping. The Pandora case was already tapped for screws. Have you seen anything suggesting the Pyra will use self-tappers?

Regarding torx drivers, the only torx drivers I own are in the form of 1/4" bits, and neither are they long enough to go in all the way to the bottom of the wells in the Pandora's base, nor slim enough to not foul on the case due to not being long enough. Whereas dedicated allen keys are easily enough found.

 

[God Ginrai]

Rubber covers popping up seemingly at random around the keyboard area?  No thanks.  There are better options.

Once again, I mentioned before that the parts would be recessed, so covers should be able to sit flush with the case.

-God Ginrai

 

[Grench]

-Screw tops should be cap style (cylinders) with either hex or torx heads. I prefer hex since it is ubiquitous - anyone who thinks they should mod hardware and doesn't have their own set of hex and torx drivers shouldn't be opening cases.


..snip...


-Case machining costs for tapping all of those screw thread holes - that is the big question. I have no reference point - what does the case manufacturer charge for tap/thread work into the case material?

As I mentioned before, the screws in my Pandora are not self-tapping. The Pandora case was already tapped for screws. Have you seen anything suggesting the Pyra will use self-tappers?

Regarding torx drivers, the only torx drivers I own are in the form of 1/4" bits, and neither are they long enough to go in all the way to the bottom of the wells in the Pandora's base, nor slim enough to not foul on the case due to not being long enough. Whereas dedicated allen keys are easily enough found.

I would prefer hex/Allen head screws as well.

That said, it's not like Torx drivers are expensive or hard to find.

http://www.amazon.com/SE-7542ST-6-Piece-Deluxe-Storage/dp/B000ST3K3W

Rubber covers popping up seemingly at random around the keyboard area?  No thanks.  There are better options.

Once again, I mentioned before that the parts would be recessed, so covers should be able to sit flush with the case.

-God Ginrai

And it's still a bad idea.

 

[Yoyobuae]

I would prefer hex/Allen head screws as well.

That said, it's not like Torx drivers are expensive or hard to find.

http://www.amazon.com/SE-7542ST-6-Piece-Deluxe-Storage/dp/B000ST3K3W

I would rather pay an additional $2 to ED and be 100% sure to get the correct driver delivery together with the device, than to pay $5~$10 to a random seller to for a set which hopefully includes one of the required size.

 

[slaeshjag]

Torx head sizes are standardized. If it uses a T8 torx, then that's all you need to know to get the correct driver.

 

[WizardStan]

Does no one know what a hardware store is these days? I need a specific screwdriver, I go to Home Depot, spend $2 on the exact screwdriver I need (or a little more if there's a set and I suspect I'll be needing more eventually)

 

[Yoyobuae]

Well, the equivalent hardware store over here is charging $4 for a single torx screwdriver:

http://www.doitcenter.com.pa/store/product.php?productid=3621&cat=&page=2

Don't know if they even have T8 size, for example. But their web site is really bad, so I would need to go personally to check.

 

[God Ginrai]

And it's still a bad idea.

It's a better alternative than most of the other suggestions. As was pointed out before, one of the problems with the Pandora was that the measurements were not exactly right. With a nut and screw combo, none of that matters, as long as the screw is long enough to get through the case, since the case has no threads.

-God Ginrai

 

[spud42]

having serviced several different types of electronic and electro mechanical devices over the last 30 years i have a little experience with screws and screw drivers.

i personally think the nut and bolt idea is "nuts"... firstly i have very seldom seen it in use except on metal frames. the problem is one of fixing it to the material.

to put threaded posts into a Pyra case would be extremely difficult and would have to be added at the molding stage. if the were added after the molding stage all you now have is a 2 part screw. because you would have to "screw "the bolt part into the case before assembly and then add the nut after when fixing the case together. nuts also require a larger hole to allow clearance for the socket needed to tighten them. now the next problem i see is if someone overtightens  the nut it will start to pull the thread out of the case. the biggest problem i have faced with training other service technicians is that they all tend to overtighten screws. this isnt a bridge, screws only need to be tight enough to hold the case together.

screws into plastic need to be coarse thread, fine thread is for metal. threads can be stripped out by repeated screw removal but all it takes is a little care to stop this. all you need to do is to turn the screw backwards slowly and the screw will drop into the original threads. you can hear it "click" most times then tighten as normal.

posidrive heads and no better than Philips. i would bet that 90% of people looking at the head couldn't tell the difference especially on small screws. When i worked for Compaq/HP most of the server stuff was put together with Torx screws but looking at my collection of screws they all seem to be metal threads anything into plastic was Philips.

the only time i see Robertson heads is on roofing self tapping metal screws or on self tapping screws for treated pine etc.

for ED the simplest cheapest and time tested method for case to case fixing is to use small self tapping coarse threaded Philips screws. After all it works for Sony,Nintendo,Sega,Atari etc.

 

[WizardStan]

After all it works for Sony,Nintendo,Sega,Atari etc

They had no desire to let you open the case and therefore didn't need to care about whether a screw was easy to remove or not. In fact, they've frequently made choices (including use of entirely non-standard screws) for the express purpose of keeping you out of the case as long as possible.Presumably ED isn't against you doing what you want and won't actively work against someone wanting to void their warranty, therefore the type of screw deserves a little bit more thought than "it worked for Nintendo".

 

[spud42]

so the nintendo triwing screw head wasnt what i was thinking about when i said that. so bad example but it is still basically a screw not a nut. it is just a different head and the screwdriver for the nintendo is available i have 3 or 4 of them.

ok maybe not from your local hardware store. my basic point is that screws are used for the reason that they are economically viable and just "work". most other systems add cost ,complexity.

with this new Greek case company i would hope the tolerances are better than the Chinese case.

 

[Glyph Reader]

This topic is screwing with my head...

-Glyph Reader

 

[rygD]

I don't really think it would be a problem to use a less common screw if it is obvious what it uses.  Pozidriv seems a bad choice because it can easily be mistaken.  Some people will try to cut corners to open the case without the right tool, but many people will purchase the correct tool.  I own a triwing screwdriver for this reason.

As for durability of the plastic cases, if it is ABS of a consistency similar to the stuff Nintendo used for the Game Boy line, with the proper screws, regardless of the drive used, there shouldn't be a problem easily opening them many times.  I have a couple I have opened at least a few dozen times each.  With the right case plastic, and screws with the right threads and size for the head, there shouldn't be a problem.

If an uncommon screw head is used and it is a big concern we should ask for a stylus with the proper tool, like _wb_ said.

 

[Franko]

We'll use fucking PLASTIC....dinosaur oil....and such. Who cares? That's them der Tree-huggers just trying to make us enclose the Pandora 3.0 in a Hemp case.


Spud42- I hear ya....you bring up good points, but M.Weston will have the initial layout and then ED will have the IDEA.


How can anyone reach their quota of positive votes for the day?


I'm an idiot, but why not have resin-printed screws?


These cases will be plastic I'm guessing?


If you do the case(s) right, you won't have to worry about expansion and the future.


"I don't need a calculator, I need a haircut" ... Albert Einstein


I came back here and I realized that nobody missed me. That's encouraging. Now I'm trying to pick myself up. Did you ever try to find THAT device? I'm lifting cans of food away from my mouth.....okay, I get it now.

 

[comradekingu]

Only found what was lost as it was regained. Out of upvotes to click on franko-posts already today.

 

[deadofmind]

The problem here is with the screws. I think we should switch to a screw where you do not need to apply pressure in order to turn it. If we do that, then we don't really need to worry about what the screw well is made out of or reinforced (If it even is) with.