Paying For Emulators Is Just Plain Wrong

[dazmanultra]

I paid for Super Mario Advance 2 and Zelda: Four Swords for my GBA even though I have both games on my GP32 and on my US SNES.

 

[PinkSpider]

I also payed for both of them... they run better than the emulated versions :/ and I have lots my SNES cables :/

 

[thecheat]

arguing that people wont buy the ports is ridiculous. if the ports are good, then people will buy them. if they are not, people will not. simple as that. plus, about another company picking up the rights to a defunct company's game? if these companies have nothing better to do than buy old code then they shouldnt be in the buisness.

 

[Akuma no Houkon]

arguing that people wont buy the ports is ridiculous. if the ports are good, then people will buy them. if they are not, people will not. simple as that. plus, about another company picking up the rights to a defunct company's game? if these companies have nothing better to do than buy old code then they shouldnt be in the buisness.

Its not stupid at all, I know many people who use roms, and dont buy the remakes because they have the rom (illegally, few legally). Its a very very valid point.

And I think remakes are much better than the original crap that comes out, I usually wont buy any new game that comes out for GBA, I wont even give it a glance in the stores, but if they make some great remake, im there. Unless of course its another sqeual to a favorite franchise like Metriod or Castlevania.

If having Roms of old games stops companies like Nintendo releasing remakes of old games (basix ports mostly though), it will imo be a very good thing.

Dont give me that crap, come on, you cant say you dont enjoy playing mario world (and the other marios), and Zelda, and many many other fun, classic games on your GBA (if you dont your one of the only ones, the sales numbers speak for themselves). Thats the only thing the GBA is really good for is remakes and franchise games. Wouldnt you love to get FF6, or Super Metriod remakes on the GBA? Retro games is the GBA's biggest selling point. Nintendo knows this (and the licenced companies do to!), and makes the remakes because we want them. The proof is in the sales. Their original games dont sell very much compared to francise sequels and remakes.

People using roms isnt about to stop nintendo from making the remakes, but it does stop a large percentage from purchasing it when they otherwise would. which affects sales, which effects the wages of everyone involved, etc... A big difference? Not comparitively, but a victimless crime? Not at all.

 

[declaration]

Dont give me that crap, come on, you cant say you dont enjoy playing mario world (and the other marios), and Zelda, and many many other fun, classic games on your GBA (if you dont your one of the only ones, the sales numbers speak for themselves). Thats the only thing the GBA is really good for is remakes and franchise games. Wouldnt you love to get FF6, or Super Metriod remakes on the GBA? Retro games is the GBA's biggest selling point. Nintendo knows this (and the licenced companies do to!), and makes the remakes because we want them. The proof is in the sales. Their original games dont sell very much compared to francise sequels and remakes.

People using roms isnt about to stop nintendo from making the remakes, but it does stop a large percentage from purchasing it when they otherwise would. which affects sales, which effects the wages of everyone involved, etc... A big difference? Not comparitively, but a victimless crime? Not at all.

What would be your attitude towards having a ROM of something like Chrono Trigger.
Do you expect anybody who wants to sample this amazing game to fork out £70 in a colectors market just to get a sample of gaming history (and if everybody did, it would cost much more than £70)? Or do you just expect people to wait for ever for a
possible port which probably will never happen.

If I want my old SNES games to be portable, why the hell should I let Nintendo decide whch one's can be portable and which ones cannot?

I also dont mind Nintendo releasing sequels. You state that original games sell less than "franchise sequels". Franchise sequels can be original in gameplay etc. Just look at Windwaker or Metroid Prime. Both original, but also sequels.
These games may warrant a purchase, but i fail to see why I should pay for a game twice, one for at home, and one for not at home.

There is a difference between a "remake", a more or less "direct port" and a "sequel".

 

[Akuma no Houkon]

What would be your attitude towards having a ROM of something like Chrono Trigger.
Do you expect anybody who wants to sample this amazing game to fork out £70 in a colectors market just to get a sample of gaming history (and if everybody did, it would cost much more than £70)? Or do you just expect people to wait for ever for a
possible port which probably will never happen.

There already IS a port of Chrono Trigger, with new FMV etc..., its just not a handheld remake. Its for the PSX. So many people that play the Chrono Trigger ROM on their PC, wont go out and buy the Chrono Trigger remake because they already have it. Again, I personally know many people that this is the case.

Just look at Windwaker or Metroid Prime. Both original, but also sequels.

Which statisically sold _much_ less than any other in their franchise, nintendo lost about half of their zelda audiance with Windwaker. And Metriod Prime didnt get that great of reviews, great graphics, boring, slow, EASY, repetative game play (I own it, but only because my 5 year old son likes playing through it, he gets bored about %25 of the way through though). Still enough to make a decent profit though, but much less than the "regular" styles.

And how is Metriod Prime original? Is just a FPS with a few nifty metriod gadgets. Not much originality in that at all.

There is a difference between a "remake", a more or less "direct port" and a "sequel".

Not as much as you might think. Every "ported" game for the GBA had to be remade, to use the smaller screen, etc... Plus, why improve on perfection? You cant make the Zelda game any better, the graphics are already _perfect_ same with super metriod, etc...why waste time and money creating new art, when the original art is already great. If it aint broke, dont fix it. If they have to hire new artists, etc... for an exisiting peice, the price is just going to go up.

I mean some REALLY old games could use a bit of a face lift, but most of the great games, are great for a reason and the graphics are part of it.


...this has gone way off topic...

 

[thecheat]

If I want my old SNES games to be portable, why the hell should I let Nintendo decide whch one's can be portable and which ones cannot?

GREAT POINT! and yes i also agree with ya, akuma, about people not buying remakes because of emulation, and its definitley a valid point, but again back to what declaration said, why should we be at the mercy of nontendo? not everyone has a super nintendo or a gba, but one or two games will not sell them into buying one. plus, as stated, people are just not gonna shell oout for an original copy of chrono just to be able to play it at home. they are gonna get it for free, of course, knowing people, and not all of them are gonna buy the game's remake. But look at sales: if im not mistaken, every mario and zelda game (excluding spinoffs and the godawful CDi games) have sold ridiculously well. and only nintendo is to blame if they want to license (read: whore) their games out to foreign publishers (in the case of metroid prime) or completely revamp the concept and design of a game after teasing fans with fake screens (like zelda WW).


and yes this has gotten off topic... down to 3 people debating... but its one of the best and most civil debates on the forums so far. Good to have healthy discussion! at least it hasnt turned into a flame war(yet :lol: )

 

[Akuma no Houkon]

You misunderstand entirely, I was merely pointing out and backing up my statement that, unlike someone said, it is NOT a victimless crime (it may seem so on the surface, but if you look closely you will see its not). Nintendo is too big (for now hehehe) for anything like that to really make a noticeable dent, however, it DOES make a dent. Which has a domino effect on everyone involved (albeit minor in most cases) it still, is not victimless as suggested.

Of course, there is a bigger dent to worry about, those who download all of the roms for games still on the commercial shelves, and not buying the original copy, _that_ makes a larger dent and makes the afore mentioned dent seem like a minor abrasion.

 

[thecheat]

You misunderstand entirely, I was merely pointing out and backing up my statement that, unlike someone said, it is NOT a victimless crime (it may seem so on the surface, but if you look closely you will see its not). Nintendo is too big (for now hehehe) for anything like that to really make a noticeable dent, however, it DOES make a dent. Which has a domino effect on everyone involved (albeit minor in most cases) it still, is not victimless as suggested.

Of course, there is a bigger dent to worry about, those who download all of the roms for games still on the commercial shelves, and not buying the original copy, _that_ makes a larger dent and makes the afore mentioned dent seem like a minor abrasion.

agreed... i was definitley wrong when i said it was a victimless crime. i just meant older games. i definitley do not agree with DLing new games, because if you really cared, youd get off ur lazy ass and buy em! :lol: really tho i wouldnt DL ISOs... i can get the games cheap enough used at gamestop (icky, but its all we have... either that or eb in the mall... *shudder* i hate the mall)

 

[Akuma no Houkon]

You misunderstand entirely, I was merely pointing out and backing up my statement that, unlike someone said, it is NOT a victimless crime (it may seem so on the surface, but if you look closely you will see its not). Nintendo is too big (for now hehehe) for anything like that to really make a noticeable dent, however, it DOES make a dent. Which has a domino effect on everyone involved (albeit minor in most cases) it still, is not victimless as suggested.

Of course, there is a bigger dent to worry about, those who download all of the roms for games still on the commercial shelves, and not buying the original copy, _that_ makes a larger dent and makes the afore mentioned dent seem like a minor abrasion.

agreed... i was definitley wrong when i said it was a victimless crime. i just meant older games. i definitley do not agree with DLing new games, because if you really cared, youd get off ur lazy ass and buy em! :lol: really tho i wouldnt DL ISOs... i can get the games cheap enough used at gamestop (icky, but its all we have... either that or eb in the mall... *shudder* i hate the mall)

I am not just talking about games that have commercial versions _CURRENTLY_ available. I am talking about even old games that dont have any comercial versions available. Those may become ports or remakes eventually. And if many people have the rom, the market for making a remake or port of an existing game drops to almost nothing. Making us lose out on some possible great remakes. (not to mention the point I made earlier, about having a rom that has no commercial version now, but who knows if they are going to make a remake next month? Whats the chance that someone who has the rom is going to go out and spend money on a remake? Only hardcore fans would. Unless the development company officially releases the game for free (like GTA), then ALL ROMS of all types on all platforms, old and new, can never be said to be a victimless crime. Just yesterday I saw a port of the old classic Asteriods (and a bunch of other old games in one cart) Those are extremely old Atari 2600 (and earlier) games.

Albiet 95% of the games are most likely not going to have sequels or remakes or ports, but you never know.

 

[thecheat]

very good point. but many companies now have to take into account emulation as the "awful truth". emulation is not going anywhere, obviously its not stopping because of freeloaders who wont shell out. not to say that current emulation is bad, but also, if companies like nintendo werent so secretive about what they release, people would be more susceptible to wait for remakes because of extra features instead of downloading.

plus, with emulation, you can play games on a variety of platforms, but w/o its the same old same old... thats why i like the GP, because of so many different options i can play all the old games ive never played. the GP got me interested in atari... LONG LIVE PITFALL!!! now if only i could afford a console... its more than a gba... well i suppose ill have to save up, after i get a router, some RAM, a new HD...

 

[Akuma no Houkon]

I am not anti-emulation, not at all, once the GP32 gets full speed GBA emulation, I will be ripping all of my (ORIGINAL) GBA games and playing them on the GP32 rather than the GBA. I was just proving a point that its not victimless no matter what angle you look at it from. Me personally I am one of the ones that buy those remakes even if I own the original and have the roms, I still go out and buy the remakes because I support the great game companies so they will continue to produce great games. But not everyone is like me, there are alot of people, I dare say the majority of emulation users, that not only care less about buying the games (even for new games like GBA, etc..) but they would never buy a remake of a game if they could find a decent rom available.

 

[PinkSpider]

Wouldnt you love to get FF6, or Super Metriod remakes on the GBA?

If FF6 came out on the GBA I would buy one just for this

Just heard that FF1/2 remakes are being made, probably same as origins on PS1 (minus the FMVs I guess)

 

[sininc]

Cheap Bastards (awaits flame)

I have no problem paying for an emulator if it is original work (i.e. not a port) and I will get some real use from it (i.e Mac emulators on the Amiga a few years back)

 

[Akuma no Houkon]

Wouldnt you love to get FF6, or Super Metriod remakes on the GBA?

If FF6 came out on the GBA I would buy one just for this

Just heard that FF1/2 remakes are being made, probably same as origins on PS1 (minus the FMVs I guess)

Actually it would be closer to the WSC versions (which you can play on the GP32 with WSC32 just not at full speed) FF Origins is based on the WSC versions. (with FMV added)

 

[declaration]

akuma- My point about Chrono Trigger was not game specific. There are so many games out there that are just really hard to find and ridiculously expensive these days. Games such as Super Mario RPG, Terranigma, Secret of Mana 2, Suikoden 1/2 are difficult to find and are expensive.
Surely you dont expect average gamers to enter a collectors market to play such gems. And if they all did, the prices of these games would rise even higher.

Remakes/ re-releases of these games dont seem likely and people with a wish to play them have no other sensible/ legitimate/ fair option.

Also, I am serious about not liking remakes. If me playing SMW emulated stops Nintendo rereleasing it, they may figure that if they actually created a brand new 2d Mario platformer, it would sell Millions. Sure it would cost more to make, but the high price tag could at least be more justified.

Also the drop in sales of Nintendo games such as Zelda has something to do with the GC not selling as many consoles as they used to (The N64 sold loads and loads) and Nintendo has some new serious competition in the shape of Microsoft.

btw- the cheat- i am also enjoying this debate .

 

[PinkSpider]

Chrono Trigger was not game specific. There are so many games out there that are just really hard to find and ridiculously expensive these days. Games such as Super Mario RPG, Terranigma, Secret of Mana 2, Suikoden 1/2

I saw PAL suikoden 2 a while ago in Gamestation and I would pay for remakes of good RPG's

 

[Axeman]

remakes with enhancements are ok. Straight remakes are less value-for-money.

 

[Mosch]

Excuse me Akuma, but games that might be ported and all that.... well, if you port an old game directly, who is going to buy it? Which 12 year old Pokemon kiddie would buy, let's say, Beach Head for their GBA, including the C64 graphics and sound? I would, but then again, I am nearly 20. I know this game from my childhood. But I severely doubt that I am what Nintendo aims for. If the same kid downloads the game and plays it on an emulator, it might get some hours (or minuites) of entertainment out of it BUT would probably not buy it for their GBA.

The game would have to be changed.

And as soon as you change a game, you do not have the original game. You have another game. Imagine Beach Head with revamped graphics, sound, some FMVs and a nice control. Then, to keep people interested, you would definitely need a single player mode with some kind of story. Of course this would be a little short, then we would need aditional levels.

If this is done.... do we have Beach Head? No, we have another game that is based on Beach Head. This game would be a remake, granted, but there would be enough difference to justify me buying it, eventhough I DO have the rom.
Damn, splice it with Mario, change the tyrant to Bowser and you have millions of kiddies wanting the "revolutionry new game".

What I want to say is, if you port games, you HAVE to change some parts. Things that were popular fifteen years ago are boring nowadays, when games are supposed to last for hours or days, not just to entertain you for twenty minuites.

Carrying on with that thought, I could say that a Zelda 1 rom prevents people from buying the brand new never heard of Secret of Mana 3 for the Gamecube as it *basically* is the same genre. It's only got another story, new graphics, other characters and more weapons and enemies. Of course that is an exaggeration, but can be applied if you are of good will to do so

 

[PinkSpider]

depends on the GAME imo.. if FF6/CT where ported to the GBA I would be happy