Paying For Emulators Is Just Plain Wrong

[Mosch]

Maybe, but I don't recall CT on C64 I'm talking about all the really old games here.

 

[declaration]

depends on the GAME imo.. if FF6/CT where ported to the GBA I would be happy

but you'd surely be happier if they made a Chrono Trigger 2 (not Chrono Cross, but same characters and graphics etc) and released it for the GBA.

 

[Akuma no Houkon]

Maybe, but I don't recall CT on C64 I'm talking about all the really old games here.

Excuse me Akuma, but games that might be ported and all that.... well, if you port an old game directly, who is going to buy it?

Asteriods, and all the arcade classics seems to sell on the PS1, PS2, and GBA (UNMODIFIED) without problems, how can you get older than Asteriods?

Your comment holds no water.

http://www.neoseeker.com/Games/Products/PS...vision_classic/
http://www.neoseeker.com/Games/Products/PSX/atari2/
http://www.neoseeker.com/Games/Products/PSX/intellivision/
http://www.neoseeker.com/Games/Products/PS...liams_greatest/

http://www.jeuxvideo.com/articles/0000/00002128_test.htm

http://www.games-toy.com/toys/williams-arc...lassics-sas.php

I could post MANY more links if I had to, to prove my point, but its not needed.

So as to who will buy direct ports of old games? Why, MILLIONS of people will. And have, and will continue to.

 

[PinkSpider]

depends on the GAME imo.. if FF6/CT where ported to the GBA I would be happy

but you'd surely be happier if they made a Chrono Trigger 2 (not Chrono Cross, but same characters and graphics etc) and released it for the GBA.

I would like the original CT tbh... I never played the original CT... only emulated/ PS1 :/

I played breath of fire port emulated for the first time and loved it.

 

[Mosch]

Asteriods, and all the arcade classics seems to sell on the PS1, PS2, and GBA (UNMODIFIED) without problems, how can you get older than Asteriods?

Your comment holds no water.

http://www.neoseeker.com/Games/Products/PS...vision_classic/
http://www.neoseeker.com/Games/Products/PSX/atari2/
http://www.neoseeker.com/Games/Products/PSX/intellivision/
http://www.neoseeker.com/Games/Products/PS...liams_greatest/

http://www.jeuxvideo.com/articles/0000/00002128_test.htm

http://www.games-toy.com/toys/williams-arc...lassics-sas.php

I could post MANY more links if I had to, to prove my point, but its not needed.

So as to who will buy direct ports of old games? Why, MILLIONS of people will. And have, and will continue to.

Hm. Don't want to sound like a smartass, but I know there are those games.... you don't need to post that. I own some of them myself (For GBA, mind you, and hey are old Gameboy games). What I am talking about is sales; you did not prove a point, you merely posted links that had no direct relation. I would gladly believe you that they sell well - but, we could continue this discussion indefinitely. Large sales can indicate that emulation did not have an impact at all, or indicate that those games are still played and emulation does not change anything, but could not prove that emulation has a negative influence. Low sales could indicate that emulation did in fact lower the sales or that the games are simply not played anymore.

As long as there is not an argument I can understand, I stand by my points

 

[Akuma no Houkon]

They obviously sell well enough to continue making them and make them on many many platforms. But the argument, if you notice, wasnt about emulation making a big impact, or if they should keep porting old classics, it was the fact that emulation, even of old classics, makes AN impact, large or small it matters not. Even the smallest impact will affect something or someone. Be it lowered wages, no raises, quick forced releases so the games are not as good as they can be, higher prices, less profit, etc... many different things that can be affected, so it is in no way a victimless crime. It may be only minor, but never victimless. That, and only that, is the argument. You are arguing a point which isnt directly related to the argument at hand.

 

[Daz_Genetic]

I would actually say that emultation, and the popularity of it, actually opened the opportunity for companies to sell direct ports and compilations of old products, that would otherwise have been forgotten forever. So emulation in some way is helping the games industry, rather than hindering it. And having worked for quite some time in the games industry as a developer, emulation is a huge source of inspiration for many of the younger game designers.

 

[Akuma no Houkon]

I would actually say that emultation, and the popularity of it, actually opened the opportunity for companies to sell direct ports and compilations of old products, that would otherwise have been forgotten forever. So emulation in some way is helping the games industry, rather than hindering it. And having worked for quite some time in the games industry as a developer, emulation is a huge source of inspiration for many of the younger game designers.

And how, pray tell me, did the opportunity suddenly exist because of emulation? Do you think the developers all said, "no we cannot make ports of old games", and then bam! emulation came to be and they said "oh well, since people emulate games now, I guess we can port them" ?? How does that make sense? You cant argue "oh well they didnt get the IDEA until emulation" because that is complete bull. People have been starting polls and emailing/snail mailing these same companies for YEARS requesting remakes/ports of popular games, long before emulation became a large, mainstream thing. They never listened then, emulation didnt do anything in this department. I think what brough out the massive remakes/ports is simply lack of original ideas (the movie bussiness is heading that way fast as well), so in desparation they start making remakes, ports and sequels, because they cant come up with anything original. Which works perfect for me, because I hate all (well most) of the "original" CRAP they have been coming up with.

 

[declaration]

Daz Genetic makes a good point.

Its already been used as an expample, so again consider Chrono Trigger-

If they released a GBA port of the game, many kids/ younger people who were too young to remember it the first time would probably buy the game on the basis of trying/playing on Snes9x or Zsnes and would now like the game for good as oppose to emulated, and would like it portable.

also, akuma, you seem to have issues with modern original games. I dont know about you, but I find many new original games as fulfilling as older games. Games such as Ico, POP- The sands of time, Jet Set Radio, Viewtiful Joe, The Windwaker are great and dont think deserve to be called "crap".

 

[Akuma no Houkon]

Games such as Ico, POP- The sands of time, Jet Set Radio, Viewtiful Joe, The Windwaker are great and dont think deserve to be called "crap".

Windwaker is on the very top of my "Total worthless CRAP" list and Jet Set Radio is not far behind.

 

[declaration]

I suppose its a matter of opinion, but I personally love Windwaker and espescially Jet Set Radio.

 

[Huxley]

I'd liken emulation to the anime fansub scene...the publishers KNOW it's illegal, and publically disapprove. In reality, however, they turn a blind eye, knowing that it helps increase awareness and popularity. What they'd really like to fight are those people who insist on downloading fansubs of anime that are currently on release - the equivelant of copying a PS2 game.

Yeah, I've emulated games. Tell the truth - my love of NeoRageX led me to buy a NGPC. My love of the NGPC led me to buy an MVS cab. Do I regret playing NeoRageX? Hell no! Did it hurt SNK? I don't think so.

Obviouslly not every case is identical, but I'm sure it's not isolated.

 

[Akuma no Houkon]

Did it hurt SNK? I don't think so.

Obviouslly not every case is identical, but I'm sure it's not isolated.

We are not just talking about it "hurting" the manufactuerer, there are thousands of people and hundreds of companies involved there. If even one of those people or companies lose out on something, that makes it not a victimless crime. You are thinking about the big companies, about the primary names, you are not thinking about the invidiual that may have to pay more for games, or may lose out on a great remake, or may effect wages of the workers, down to even the janitor of the smallest game company for that platform, if it effects even one of them in a negative way, it is NOT victimless. Just because you dont see the victim, doesnt mean there isnt one.

 

[Huxley]

Did it hurt SNK? I don't think so.

Obviouslly not every case is identical, but I'm sure it's not isolated.

We are not just talking about it "hurting" the manufactuerer, there are thousands of people and hundreds of companies involved there. If even one of those people or companies lose out on something, that makes it not a victimless crime. You are thinking about the big companies, about the primary names, you are not thinking about the invidiual that may have to pay more for games, or may lose out on a great remake, or may effect wages of the workers, down to even the janitor of the smallest game company for that platform, if it effects even one of them in a negative way, it is NOT victimless. Just because you dont see the victim, doesnt mean there isnt one.

What? Sorry, but did you read my post? I said I actually went out and bought a Neo-Geo. I gave money to the company. And yes, some of that probably went to the janitor. Maybe even the work experience boy if they were kind enough to tip him a tenner!

So how is that hurting anyone?

 

[declaration]

or may effect wages of the workers, down to even the janitor of the smallest game company for that platform, if it effects even one of them in a negative way, it is NOT victimless. Just because you dont see the victim, doesnt mean there isnt one.

I cant accept that.

I have never heard of a janitor being paid in relation to how succesful the compny is. Do you think the janitors at M$ get paid $100 an hour. no. The frontline workers get screwed by all big companies and it is these workers who cant afford new games and have to emulate. I dont wanna get too political because I cant stop myslef spiralling off.

Unless a company goes out of business, I think suggesting that a Janitors wage is releated to sales is slightly misleading.

 

[Daz_Genetic]

I never meant to imply that emulation made it made it possible. I mean that I beleive that emulation helped increase the market, and therefore make these ports commercially viable and in some cases extrememely successful. In fact, i'm sure that many of the people who bought these ports, probably never got a chance to play them the first time round. And how do you think some of the younger gamers got introduced to these games and systems in the first place.

 

[Akuma no Houkon]

or may effect wages of the workers, down to even the janitor of the smallest game company for that platform, if it effects even one of them in a negative way, it is NOT victimless. Just because you dont see the victim, doesnt mean there isnt one.

I cant accept that.

I have never heard of a janitor being paid in relation to how succesful the compny is. Do you think the janitors at M$ get paid $100 an hour. no. The workers get screwed by all big companies and it is these workers who cant afford new games and have to emulate. I dont wanna get too political because I cant stop myslef spiralling off.

Unless a company goes out of business, I think suggesting that a Janitors wage is releated to sales is slightly misleading.

I used the janitor as an indirect releation, obviously it will probably very rarely ever result in anything that low.

You seem to keep making references to visible direct relations only. How do you know the sales figures that they make per project? How do you know how many people are not buying the remake because they own the rom? If even a single person doesnt buy the remakes BECAUSE they have the rom so see no need to, (when they normally would otherwise) then that one sale, although a _very_ minor effect, still effects the profit. Now put that ona global scale, where hundreds to thousands of people feel the same way (even if you dont), thats thousands of sales that are not made and could be. That WILL effect the books. Not enough for you to see, most commercial companies can absorb a small hit like that and not even really notice. Just because every game company doesnt officially announce "We lost approx. $10,000 on lost sales due to emulation this period" doesnt mean it doesnt exist. Most companies probably couldnt make an approximation like that if they wanted to, they dont know the people who dont buy their product for that reason. Now this loss of money over time, could have been a raise for one of the employees, or could have gone to fund a great game (original or remake), but since you didnt buy the game because you own the rom, well, that will never happen, the employee loses out on a raise and we lose out on a potential great game. Even we can be the victims of this. Although indirectly.

 

[Huxley]

I completely agree with what you're saying Akuma no Houkon, but I think the effect on on most companies is negligible at best. Most would be far more concerned with regular piracy, which really does take a big chunck out of profits.

 

[Akuma no Houkon]

I completely agree with what you're saying Akuma no Houkon, but I think the effect on on most companies is negligible at best. Most would be far more concerned with regular piracy, which really does take a big chunck out of profits.

Exactally, my point isnt that is has a drastic effect, but that it does have a negative effect, no matter how small or insignificant. Also, there are exceptions to every rule. There are those who buy the remakes / whatever even if they have the roms, but the majority do not.

 

[declaration]

akuma- You are saying that we dont know if emulation and having Roms affects games companies in a negative way. But, I would say to you that you dont know if emulation and roms are affecting games sales in a POSITIVE way.

Before I got my GP32, I bought BOF for my GBA. I know I only bought it because I had played 16 bit RPG's before through emulation. Suikoden 3 and 4 are being released for the PS2. The only sensible way I could play the first two games is emulation. If I like them, I may buy the sequels.

You see what I mean. You make points about things (roms/emulation) indirectly influencing people not to but games, but I say it could also work indirectly the other way as described above.