Paying For Emulators Is Just Plain Wrong


Well I guess it boils down to whether you think an emulator is legal or not.
I think it isnt.

Obviously you and others disagree.

Ill pay for things like modern games when theyre legit, not for something that isnt.
 
I bought bleem thinking that was going to be updated even today. Well they were sued by sony and now I have the same crap I had before. Now the free emulators are everywhere and constantly updated. I think the same may happen to the zodiac if they are not careful. If I pay $5 bucks and then later the company is sued and goes out of business then I am screwed.
 
Antiriad posted on Apr 3 2004 at 08:35 PM said:
Well I guess it boils down to whether you think an emulator is legal or not.
I think it isnt.

Obviously you and others disagree.

Ill pay for things like modern games when theyre legit, not for something that isnt.
If you think emulation is not legal, then you shouldnt be doing it in the first place.

It is like saying, "drugs are bad so I wont pay for drugs, but if my friends gives me some, I get as high as I possibly can."
 
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This is definitely an interesting argument. I can see merit in both sides of it. Its definitely one of those things that will run and run. My opinion is is that I can understand emulator writers wanting to charge for their work, because work takes time, and strictly speaking, it is the time that they would be charging for. However, the reverse-engineering that has to go on to allow this to happen is, in many cases, illegal.

Reverse engineering, for those who dont know, is the process of taking someone elses work (usually compiled code or similar) and looking at it to try and work out what it does for the purposes of copying the concepts and process - all be it in a different way.

In reality, its one of those things that companies would probably (and almost always DO) turn a blind eye to when the end product is a homebrew or non-profit making product, unless the free availability of such product is going to infringe heavily on their business interests.

A parallel would be taking a well-known song, working out all the instrumental parts, getting a band together and recording it, then releasing it (free or not) without the original author's permnission. You are still negating the many hours it took to write and originally record that son, even if you ARE putting your time into figuring it out and learning it etc. In reality again, many bands play covers at gigs, which in reality arn't strictly legal without the record companys permission.

The main difference with emulated consoles/computers is the same argument brought up again and again with roms - that most of the time, the system/games are no longer a going business concern, so the companies are not that bothered. It is when the emulated system takes away from the business of a company, and even makes COPIES of it's games playable on a totally different system that the companies get pissed off. And I dont blame them. This is the main reason why I really DONT want a good GBA emulator on the GP32 - it could be its death knell.

A case in point is that of the Playstation emulator for the PC and Dreamcast - Bleem. That started out as freeware, but graduated into a very good, but charged-for product. I myself actually bought it just before Sony decided to sue the hell out of the company and shut it down.

Thing is, we all know that if Nintendo happened to do anything more than than fart in the general direction of Gamepark, they would probably send our favorite little Korean company to that place that so many other have gone and never returned from. Yes, I know that GP isn;t developing the emus themselves, but it's still something to think about.

What it boils down to is that, whatever you think of paying for emulators, if the authors decide to charge, they are strictly speaking charging for the research and development of another company. It's up to that company if they want to get pissed about it, but if they do, they're unlikely to lose an argument in court. It looks like, legally anyway, emulators will have to stay as donationware if the authors want to stay from being pulled through the courts.

Anyway - I'll stop now :)
 
jcbnetwork posted on Apr 3 2004 at 08:36 PM said:
If you think emulation is not legal, then you shouldnt be doing it in the first place.

It is like saying, "drugs are bad so I wont pay for drugs, but if my friends gives me some, I get as high as I possibly can."
Paying for drugs isnt ripping off the work of someone else though.

The people who download emulators do so because they are only interested in it thanks to the work of those who designed the hardware in the first place and those who did software for it.
 
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I see your point.

But when you say...

"I would not pay for an emulator because it is a ripoff of the work done by the hardware designers." Makes it sound as though you ACTUALLY CARE that someone is getting ripped off... BUT since you would gladly use a FREE emulator, it is telling me that you really do not care about the designers at all. You do not care if its legal or immoral to use an emulator, as long as its FREE. So what you really do care about is your money.

Whether it is legal or not, I would personally pay for an emulator if it provides me with entertainment.

Of course, when you can get so many other emulators for free, it feels weird having to pay for one. But if in order to get FULL SPEED SNES emulation on the GP32 I had to pay, I would GLADLY do so.
 
I would RATHER pay for an emulator than get one free.
Not only would I pay for an emulator, but if there was a Free emulator, and one that I had to pay for, that were the same speed, same platform, same functionality, I would get the one you have to pay for. And do you know why?

Paying for the emulator ensures that everyone that uses it, gives their share.

Paying for an emulator ensures that there will be new versions

Paying for an emulator gives the author more reason to keep working on it

Etc.. Etc.. Etc..

As a fact, you can view the current GP32 emulation Scene, no one knows if any of these emulators are going to have new versions, or when, we dont even know if most of the emu coders jumpped ship to a different platform, or those that did, if the GP32 is a priorty or on the backshelf, and we dont have the right to complain because the author is spending his free time writing a free program.

WHERE AS, in the zodiac, morphgear, etc... forums, you are kept uptodate, not a day goes by without posts from the authors about progress, bugs, etc.., you pay for this product so the authors are obligated to tell you whats going on, to provide updates, and are more motivated to continue.

I would _much_ rather pay for an emulator than get one free.

Oh sure you can say "Just let us donate"

GET REAL, how many of you ACTUALLY donate? Dont lie now.

I have been developing games and software, for free, for ten years. And recently (the past 5 years) I put a donation link on my site. You know how many dontations I have gotten in 5 years? Ten. Yeah, thats it. Ten. Because of this, I can no longer afford to keep my site up, right now I am using free hosting with limited bandwidth. (but thats another story for another time)

The point is, a lot of you have "good intentions" and claim you "would" donate, but when push comes to shove you never do. You can lie to yourself all you want, and tell yourself that you would donate, but please, dont bullshit the rest of us.
 
Akuma no Houkon, I went through this topic thinking the same things as you, but you got to write them first. So thankyou, you've saved me some typing. :D

I also want to point out that emulators are not illegal, even in the US, as the cases of Bleem VS Sony proved. Bleem won every case Sony through at them, Bleem just had to fold due to a lack of money. It is only illegal to use the copyrighted bios or Roms you have not bought. It doesn't matter if you feel emulators are illegal, it has been proved through court cases, that they are not.

If a person spends loads of time writing software they should be allowed to ask people to pay for it, after all you would be paying for the fact that you wont have to spend your own time learing how to code, and then writing the emulator yourself.
 
Emulators extend the possibilites of the system you prefer to work with dont they?
You would expect to pay for upgrades/new hardware or software, so i see no reason why paying for emulation is wrong. also, It cannot be blamed on the emulator programmers for warez and piracy - it is down to the user to be responsible and pay for their games.
 
In a perfect world they shouldnt have to. In a perfect world everyone who used the product would donate their share.

However, we do not live in a perfect world. As this topic proves SOME PEOPLE ARE CHEAP FREELOADERS. There is no getting arround that.

Some people feel they can go through life without having to pay for anything, that everything should be given to them and whats not given, they simply download off of P2P programs.

Some people need to grow up.

And those morons who post "Selling emulators is giving the scene a bad name" are just plain ignorant.

Emulators have been being sold since probably before you were even born.

Hey look, Microsoft even sells PC emulators! Which can run DOS, Linux, Windows, etc...Oh no! Big bad Microsoft is giving the emulation scene a bad name!
http://www.microsoft.com/mac/products/virt...x?pid=virtualpc
Virtual PC for Mac is a true Mac application that emulates a PC on your Mac,
You know, if you had the mind too, you could use this VirtualPC (PC emulator) to run PIRATED WINDOWS GAMES on your mac! OH NO IT MUST BE ILLEGAL!

Again, I hate to repeat myself, but, GROW UP.
 
If a coder is going to charge for an emulator (or any piece of software infact) then it should be at least as good as (if not better) then anything that is free on the market or be be the only piece of software in its catagory. As long as it is not over priced, then I think it is acceptable to charge for emus.

For a current example, why have most of us bought GPcinema? It was far better then anything else that was free and it was dirt cheap.

Some people need to grow up
Taking this literally, that is half the problem on the other side of the fence. Some of the users are teenagers with no method of paying or donating. Asking parents for money on an emulator isn't easy when they do not what one is...

Personally I prefer to see them being free because I admitally fall in the catogy "SOME PEOPLE ARE CHEAP FREELOADERS" but I would give a high quality emu serious consideration if it was only for £5 - £10
 
Some of the users are teenagers with no method of paying or donating. Asking parents for money on an emulator isn't easy when they do not what one is...

Unless you live in a backroads 3rd world country, then that little excuse is no excuse AT ALL

There is ALWAYS a way to get money. AT ANY AGE.

Just you have to actually WORK for the money, which most of those freeloaders are not wont to do.

When I was 10 (not that long ago mind you!) I was going Door To Door arround my neighborhood, asking if people wanted their lawn mowed, weeds pulled, yard cleaned , or any other odd jobs they needed done. Although this wasnt "quick cash", it WAS cash. At one point in my childhood I even did one of those Door To Door candy selling programs to make a bit of money. I even sold crafted items at school accasionally.

You know why? Because I needed money and I wasnt a lazy freeloader.

No matter what situation you are in, unless your parents keep you locked in a cell 24/7, there is bound to be some way you can get a bit of cash.

Thats just a lame excuse that kids like to make to validate their reason for stealing MP3's and games, and not wanting to pay for anything.

I find it odd that somehow you (no one in particular) managed to get a GamePark32, and an SMC (or maybe multiple SMC's), and you cant manage to scrounge up a few bucks for an emulator.
 
...not only that, if you can't afford it, erm... don't buy it. Saying that people should only develop emulators for free because that's the only way YOU'LL be able to play them is both ignorant and selfish.

I'm not saying it's fair that we have to pay for everything; look at piracy and how rampant it is today. But using it as an argument supporting free emulators is like saying we should make ALL music free because 'I'm gonna p2p it anyways cos I spent all my money on this iPod already'
 
Some links showing that emulation is legal:

Article documenting Sonys 1st loss against Bleem
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/puzzle/bleem/news_2450520.html

Article documenting Sonys 2nd loss against Bleem
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/puzzle/bleem/news_2451800.html

Article documenting the start of Bleemcast and mentioning that Sony had lost 3 cases against Bleem.
http://www.segalife.com/showcase/bleemrant/bleemrant.shtml

Article documenting the demise of Bleem due to lack of funds from lawsuits and lack of interest in Bleemcast (due to the Dreamcast being discontinued in the same year)
http://www.emulator-zone.com/doc.php/psx/bleem.html

I'm off to bed now (I'm in the UK and it's late) but if anyone can prove emulation is illegal, please show me and I will change my mind entirely on the subject.
 
Akuma no Houkon posted on Apr 4 2004 at 01:09 AM said:
Some of the users are teenagers with no method of paying or donating. Asking parents for money on an emulator isn't easy when they do not what one is...

Unless you live in a backroads 3rd world country, then that little excuse is no excuse AT ALL

There is ALWAYS a way to get money. AT ANY AGE.

Just you have to actually WORK for the money, which most of those freeloaders are not wont to do.
I did not mean it in that sense, I meant as in methods of payment:

Credit Cards
Paypal
Cheques
etc

for an average teen to be able to use any of the above then he/she would be underage (not sure about bank transfer).
 
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i never paid for shareware as a teen for exactly that reason...


the reason i don't donate to ryleh now is because i don't have paypal/they're not professional enough...


just my 20p


EDIT: paypal f$%king sucks...
 
Most places that sell anything through the mail or online accept money orders. Which _anyone_ regardless of age, can get from any bank in the world. Some banks they are as cheap as $0.25 for a money order, some give them free. (some rape you for $5)

Most sites wont advertise that they will accept money orders (but many will) but I can gaurentee you that if you simply took the time to email them, you can easily work something out.

Just another excuse for lazyness. If you truely wanted to buy / support a product, you would find a way. I have sent my fair share of money orders to people for software products. Money orders dont have an age limit.

If you have a gamepark, how the hell did you get it if you didnt pay for something online (credit card, paypal, bank transfer, or money order), surely you used one of those methods to order your GP32, as no place accepts cash in little envelopes.

Whatever method you used to get your gamepark, can most likely be used again. Baring that, get a simple money order from your local bank.
 
yaustar posted on Apr 4 2004 at 02:11 AM said:
Akuma no Houkon posted on Apr 4 2004 at 01:09 AM said:
Some of the users are teenagers with no method of paying or donating. Asking parents for money on an emulator isn't easy when they do not what one is...

Unless you live in a backroads 3rd world country, then that little excuse is no excuse AT ALL

There is ALWAYS a way to get money. AT ANY AGE.

Just you have to actually WORK for the money, which most of those freeloaders are not wont to do.
I did not mean it in that sense, I meant as in methods of payment:

Credit Cards
Paypal
Cheques
etc

for an average teen to be able to use any of the above then he/she would be underage (not sure about bank transfer).
Yep.... I cant pay by any of them and im 18, I have to lend my mums card and she will only let me buy at 'big' sites :(
 
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I wouldn't mind paying for emulators and I have done it before. I would pay as long as they are NOT coded to the specific unit. The Zodiac for example requires you to register everything to your unit. So for example if you want to upgrade or your unit breaks you need to re-register everything which is a real pain in the ass.
 
Just to set the record straight, I am 21 in the UK. I paid for the GP32 via debit card at gbax.com (which being in the UK makes the process a hell of a lot easier) I am not saying that I will not pay for software since I already have.

My arguement above is just stating the problems I had when I was younger in obtaining anything that required a form of electronic money. (whilst lacking the knowledge of alternatives methods of payment)

For me to get GPcinema from JoyGP, my debit card did not work so I had to use my mother's credit card to purchase it to it being an international purchase (or a crap system (not sure))

btw, what is a money order? Is it similar to our Postal order system in the UK? ANd does it work internationally?
 
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