Pandora with microSD - will you buy it?

[SNESFAN]

I wont try to predict the future of cards. Obviously it can go either way and there are areuments that cant be validated about which technology will take over. Seeing how the market is leaning twoards microsd for most mobile devices sold is one, watching the current market trend that favors full is the other side. I have not read anything about physical limitations of micro only that sdxc both micro and full being a topmost limit of 2TB. So thats as far as i will go into theoretical market trend unless you can bring it with some sort of proof showing one is not capable of being equal.


I will elaborate on functional use of the popular configuration though.


-3 slot device, 1 for semi non removeable os drive, but upgradeable. 2 external slots for media transfer and increased potential storeage. Currently it would allow 256GB + whatever is on the os... thats plenty currently for todays needs the media will get better as technology increases. 512GB not being too far off im guessing.


-full sd over micro for external storeage. As you stated higher current storeage and faster, can fit microsd with an adapter if needed and the market changes, easier to remove and swap and keep track of. If you dont keep at least one full sized sd you will be limiting the device from potential upper limit speed & size if the market trend doesnt go the way of microsd. Yes that could also be interpereted into 2 micro & a full but at least one full would be prefered regardless of location.


-microsd over full for internal. If you could fit 3 slots on a device you would have much better chance with micro. They are more form fitting both width wise but thinner. The media is more friendly for semi removeable storeage as been proven with most devices that support both (look at odroid pcb for a GREAT example of size comparison). You could also stack one on top another like that if you really needed to save space.


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[Linux-SWAT]

Sent from my MB612 using Tapatalk 2

What kind of SD slot do you have on it ?

 

[SNESFAN]

Micro, its a "droid pro" rebranded for my usa carrier


Sent from my MB612 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Grench]

I wont try to predict the future of cards. Obviously it can go either way and there are areuments that cant be validated about which technology will take over. Seeing how the market is leaning twoards microsd for most mobile devices sold is one, watching the current market trend that favors full is the other side. I have not read anything about physical limitations of micro only that sdxc both micro and full being a topmost limit of 2TB. So thats as far as i will go into theoretical market trend unless you can bring it with some sort of proof showing one is not capable of being equal.


I will elaborate on functional use of the popular configuration though.

The 2TB is a theoretical limit of the device design - there are, of course, no cards that 'get there' yet.


Both SD and microSD are, in theory, capable of getting there.


If they get there, SD will get there first - around the same time or before micro SD hits 1TB. I can make that prediction based on the simple fact that if you have memory dense enough to cram 1TB into a microSD, twice as much of that same stuff - and then some, would fit into the SD form factor.

-3 slot device, 1 for semi non removeable os drive, but upgradeable. 2 external slots for media transfer and increased potential storeage. Currently it would allow 256GB + whatever is on the os... thats plenty currently for todays needs the media will get better as technology increases. 512GB not being too far off im guessing.

I agree with your guess that 256GB SD cards will be here inside of 6 months. I would expect 128GB microSD cards to show up around 3-6 months after the 256GB SD does.

-full sd over micro for external storeage. As you stated higher current storeage and faster, can fit microsd with an adapter if needed and the market changes, easier to remove and swap and keep track of. If you dont keep at least one full sized sd you will be limiting the device from potential upper limit speed & size if the market trend doesnt go the way of microsd.

I'm pretty confident that full sized SD will always lead the format into new areas of speed as well as capacity. Take that hypothetical 1TB microSD memory 'chunk'. Put two of them into an SD card and it will double the capacity AND nearly double the speed that comes out via stripe reads/writes from the same technology level.

Yes that could also be interpereted into 2 micro & a full but at least one full would be prefered regardless of location.

Since full SD will always be twice the capacity AND potentially nearly twice the speed at any capacity compared to microSD, why put 2 micro in a device if you can have a full sized slot?

-microsd over full for internal. If you could fit 3 slots on a device you would have much better chance with micro. They are more form fitting both width wise but thinner. The media is more friendly for semi removeable storeage as been proven with most devices that support both (look at odroid pcb for a GREAT example of size comparison). You could also stack one on top another like that if you really needed to save space.

What device currently has both SD and microSD slots?


I looked up the Odroid:


http://www.thetechlabs.com/tech-news/odroid-x-the-quad-core-android-barebones/


It appears to have one full sized SD slot and an eMMC module socket - which isn't a microSD at all.


http://www.techrepublic.com/photos/cracking-open-the-nook-simple-touch-with-glowlight/6364241?seq=46


Did someone figure out a way to adapt an eMMC module to microSD or something?

 

[bismuthdrummer]

The other poll is about, what do you WANT in the device, not what is possible.


...


The winning vote - summarizing categories - is that people WANT at least two SD slots in the device - and don't care much whether it has microSD in addition to those or not.


...

Yes, because you can just sum up the results over each category. Good math there. I suppose a staggering 80% prefer no NAND...

...


People keep asking me how I get to the logical conclusion of a 2 full sized SD slot machine with one internal. I keep stating it. I have been VERY consistent in this.

(the point)=======>


:blink:


You changed my question. I wasn't asking for your conclusions on your own preference, we have plenty of tldr posts on that.


I was asking for the difference between you and the public, if you have an explanation for why people would vote for internal microSD + 2 full-size SD as the most acceptable configuration, possible or not. You keep dodging the question by answering something I didn't ask, so I guess you must not really know or care why.


By your arguments, shouldn't they have overwhelmingly chosen 3 full-size SD? But they didn't... interesting.


Oh well, back to the old dodge-the-question-then-layer-on-one-sided-arguments-mixed-with-irrational-hatred-of-microSD. I'm going to go hit a tennis ball around.


kthxbye

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Micro, its a "droid pro" rebranded for my usa carrier


Sent from my MB612 using Tapatalk 2

Motorola phones are cool.


Are you registered on their forums ?

 

[SNESFAN]

Micro, its a "droid pro" rebranded for my usa carrier


Sent from my MB612 using Tapatalk 2

Motorola phones are cool.


Are you registered on their forums ?

yea, not very active but it just got gingerbread a couple weeks ago


@grench, wrong odroid... I'm talking about "the odroid" not the stuff that came after it from hard kernel. Look at the size difference, the microsd is about a quarter of the size, not to mention thinner


http://www.linuxford...dKernel-Odroid/

I must have been thinking about my xperia play where they stacked the SIM card and the microsd together instead of the odroid with full + micro... but regardless they stacked them vertically and had a micro controller w/ ribbon cable that connected one of them to the mains, extremely compact design idea

everything else you said is all theoretical hearsay, the argument could go either way unless there is a technical limitation about the design being inferior. How's that meme go?

Spoiler

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Motorola phones are cool.


Are you registered on their forums ?

yea, not very active but it just got gingerbread a couple weeks ago

Ok, we have a SD psycho tool to export there, can you handle it ? ^^

 

[SNESFAN]

Motorola phones are cool.


Are you registered on their forums ?

yea, not very active but it just got gingerbread a couple weeks ago

Ok, we have a SD psycho tool to export there, can you handle it ? ^^

I was wondering where you were going with that.. I'm not sure if I'm quite up for that task though lol

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Too late, the hot cake is in your hands ^^.

 

[Grench]

(the point)=======>


:blink:


You changed my question. I wasn't asking for your conclusions on your own preference, we have plenty of tldr posts on that.


I was asking for the difference between you and the public, if you have an explanation for why people would vote for internal microSD + 2 full-size SD as the most acceptable configuration, possible or not. You keep dodging the question by answering something I didn't ask, so I guess you must not really know or care why.


By your arguments, shouldn't they have overwhelmingly chosen 3 full-size SD? But they didn't... interesting.


Oh well, back to the old dodge-the-question-then-layer-on-one-sided-arguments-mixed-with-irrational-hatred-of-microSD. I'm going to go hit a tennis ball around.


kthxbye

I don't know what others are thinking. Instead of 'going after Grench' have you considered voicing your own opinions around what configuration of ports YOU think would be better and why?


The theme I got from the 'other poll' was that people wanted a removable something internal to boot from AND that they want at least 2 full sized SD card slots on the machine.


I understand the need for two full sized external SD slots if a microSD is used inside the device.


I have asked the open question - to anyone who would answer it:


If you have a full sized internal SDXC port and ONE full sized external SD port, what would be the need for a 2nd external full sized SD port? What is the use case that demands two exposed slots if the 'internal' one is a full speed and capacity SDXC?


This is my attempt to answer the questions:


Can a device with one internal SDXC and one external SDXC meet all of the needs of someone who is requesting an internal microSD and two full sized external ports?


If so, then why do they 'need' a 3rd slot?


If not, then what is the usage scenario?


Is the usage scenario requiring two exposed full sized slots rare enough to be addressed through a USB 3.0 to SDXC adapter?


If a device with an internal full sized SDXC and external full sized SDXC meet all of the needs of people in the microSD & two full sized external ports camp - then why have microSD at all? Just put a full sized port inside, one outside and be done with it.


So, again, I'm getting pressed to 'back it up' - and getting no responses with alternatives that have even remotely similar thought presented.


What are you FOR and why are you FOR it? What is the use case that demands it?

 

[Grench]

@grench, wrong odroid... I'm talking about "the odroid" not the stuff that came after it from hard kernel. Look at the size difference, the microsd is about a quarter of the size, not to mention thinner


http://www.linuxford...dKernel-Odroid/

Thank you for providing the link for the Odroid that you were referencing. Yes, the two formats have a significant difference in footprints. That has never been in contention. What is your point with this emphasis?

I must have been thinking about my xperia play where they stacked the SIM card and the microsd together instead of the odroid with full + micro... but regardless they stacked them vertically and had a micro controller w/ ribbon cable that connected one of them to the mains, extremely compact design idea

Nifty idea if we were considering strapping six microSD cards together into a RAID5 array inside the device. How is that relevant to this discussion?

everything else you said is all theoretical hearsay, the argument could go either way unless there is a technical limitation about the design being inferior. How's that meme go?

Either way?


It's a matter of simple packing. You can put twice as much 'stuff' in a two liter bag as you can in a one liter bag.


Assuming equal memory module densities (technology level) and no reader pipe bandwidth restrictions, full sized SD will always have twice the capacity and speed of the largest microSD.


You can put twice as much 'stuff' on the SD card.


If you have two modules, then you can stripe the reads & writes between them.


Now, someone is going to bring up the 16GB microSD 90MB/s card that is just now coming out. The concept of this is pretty clear - more room for a distributing controller on the card itself to get speed has resulted in less room on the card for memory - which is in smaller GB chunks to interact with the controller in a 'more sandforce' type way.


As for your spoiler of, "Evidence or GTFO".


You are demanding that I provide you evidence that I can see the future. I'm not sure which would be more disturbing - if you really thought I could - or if I actually could. Either way, there is no answer that could meet this demand for, 'prove the future'.


I can, and have, pointed to historical trends, mechanical limitations of a smaller vs larger package and laid it out many many many ways. I have supplied basis for my assumptions and predictions.


I have seen several people state that, "microSD is the future," and that the 'gap is narrowing' and that 'because they're used in cell phones and craptablets, microSD will rule the world'. However, THAT is theoretical hearsay with absolutely no historical trends to base it on. There has been no supporting evidence supplied for this argument - at all.


Now, lets turn this around. What do YOU want to see as a configuration for the device? Why? What is the actual usage case that requires it to be that way for you?

 

[bismuthdrummer]

I don't know what others are thinking. Instead of 'going after Grench' have you considered voicing your own opinions around what configuration of ports YOU think would be better and why?


The theme I got from the 'other poll' was that people wanted a removable something internal to boot from AND that they want at least 2 full sized SD card slots on the machine.

No, the conclusion you got was that people prefer SD over microSD. And you drew this conclusion from a completely false statistical conclusion. Can you admit that? Or do I need to teach you some basic statistics?


You know what? Let's do it right here.


Your conclusion said "sum the categories for the winning answer", which -- and I'm no expert -- is false for at least two reasons.


First, even if the choices were balanced and exhaustive (which they are not), you don't have an even number for each category across all the choices. As one voter I can vote 9 times for no NAND, twice FOR the NAND, 7 times for SD and 6 times for microSD. Which means if every voter liked every choice, SD would beat microSD by 1 vote for each person. I won't go into the philosophical explanation for what makes this kind of statistic on that kind of poll fundamentally incorrect, it would take way too long.


Second, your poll is WAY too complex to be taken seriously for anything but the individual choice. There's too much multi-variate data strewn about to say anything other than "internal microSD + 2 full-size SD won out of all the choices". You want to know which media type they prefer overall? Take a poll on that question.


"What would you like to see in the Pandora 2? Choose any of the below."

1. NAND
   
   
2. microSD
   
   
3. miniSD
   
   
4. SD
   

But your whole approach is to change the question that people answer by summing the statistics your way, rather than judging the poll the way it is presented.


Can you admit that you were wrong? If you cannot, then I'm afraid our discussion is over. A rational person can admit when they have made a mistake, and your concession will show everyone reading that you are, at least, rational.

...


What are you FOR and why are you FOR it? What is the use case that demands it?

If you read as much as you wrote:

...


Why can't I have a reasonably priced but fast internal drive and still transfer large files? Or even just a cheap system drive (maybe I don't care so much about boot time or system space)? Unless you are saying I'm going to save a load of cash on my Pandora by dropping a slot...


// This isn't a critical function, I am just illustrating the clear loss of functionality for the common Pandora user.

You could do that just fine if we had 3 SDXC slots. The one inside and one outside solution was a response to someone stating that the physical volume of 3 SDXC slots would be too much.


I sympathize with the loss of an external facing port - but I'm willing to give one up if that is the difference between having internal SDXC instead of getting stuck with microSD and all of the capability loss associated with it. In this scenario, I would end up using a USB SDXC dongle as the 2nd external SDXC slot when those needs present.

And I'm not willing to give up an external facing port just to make an SD internal, I'm perfectly happy with microSD. In fact, I think the performance of microSD is such that I would never use the full-size SD capabilities that we'll assume for argument's sake you're correct about. Since I don't see a difference, might as well make it a smaller size. I don't need a large or fast system card, and probably most users that posted for the configuration think the same way.


You could have thought of this reasoning if you really cared about public opinion... and that is why I'm "going after you". I'd elaborate but I'm sure you know what I and many others think of you.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

"What would you like to see in the Pandora 2? Choose any of the below."

1. NAND
   
   
2. microSD
   
   
3. miniSD
   
   
4. SD
   

3


For the win !

 

[bismuthdrummer]

"What would you like to see in the Pandora 2? Choose any of the below."

1. NAND
   
   
2. microSD
   
   
3. miniSD
   
   
4. SD
   

3


For the win !

Had to be fair, the public has spoken highly of this miniSD technology.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Really not a surprise: it's the best.

 

[SNESFAN]

Grench your ability to keep track of a conversation makes you a frusterateing person to debate with.


We went on about how a 3 slot device wasnt feaseable due to size, so i recommened a space saving strategy and you cant see the relevence? I cant help you, im sorry...


So if the 1 full = 2 mini stripe then why not just use that and still save physical space? The houseing for the full size slot is more than twice the space as micro and thickness


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[Exophase]

The concept of this is pretty clear - more room for a distributing controller on the card itself to get speed has resulted in less room on the card for memory - which is in smaller GB chunks to interact with the controller in a 'more sandforce' type way.

Stop making shit up, you have absolutely zero evidence to support this claim or even any kind of legitimate technical conjecture.

 

[Grench]

Can you admit that you were wrong? If you cannot, then I'm afraid our discussion is over. A rational person can admit when they have made a mistake, and your concession will show everyone reading that you are, at least, rational.

I have no issues admitting when I'm wrong - but only if I am, actually, wrong. THAT isn't the debate. THAT is you trying to take a technical discussion and make it about 'hate'.


You are reading things into the other poll to fit your argument. I am reading things into it to fit mine. My stating that the real results are that a high percentage of people require external SD on the device AND your claim that a high percentage of people show in that poll, that if there is an internal slot, they want it to be microSD. Again, interesting, but again, that isn't what this is about.

...


What are you FOR and why are you FOR it? What is the use case that demands it?

If you read as much as you wrote:

...


Why can't I have a reasonably priced but fast internal drive and still transfer large files? Or even just a cheap system drive (maybe I don't care so much about boot time or system space)? Unless you are saying I'm going to save a load of cash on my Pandora by dropping a slot...


// This isn't a critical function, I am just illustrating the clear loss of functionality for the common Pandora user.

You could do that just fine if we had 3 SDXC slots. The one inside and one outside solution was a response to someone stating that the physical volume of 3 SDXC slots would be too much.


I sympathize with the loss of an external facing port - but I'm willing to give one up if that is the difference between having internal SDXC instead of getting stuck with microSD and all of the capability loss associated with it. In this scenario, I would end up using a USB SDXC dongle as the 2nd external SDXC slot when those needs present.

And I'm not willing to give up an external facing port just to make an SD internal, I'm perfectly happy with microSD. In fact, I think the performance of microSD is such that I would never use the full-size SD capabilities that we'll assume for argument's sake you're correct about. Since I don't see a difference, might as well make it a smaller size. I don't need a large or fast system card, and probably most users that posted for the configuration think the same way.

Finally - after all of that you voiced an actual opinion on the actual topic. One paragraph after how many posts in the thread? THIS is much closer what the debate is about.


You are, "not willing to give up an external facing port." In this vision, what kind of port is that? What is the usage case that you require a 2nd external port for?


You are, "happy with microSD." Is that in all positions on the device or just a hypothetical internal slot?


You state that you, "think the performance of microSD is such that (you) would never use the full-size SD capabilities." Is it your opinion, then, that the device should be restricted at the point it surpasses YOUR needs? So, at your house, does everyone else have to stop eating when you're full?


You state that you, "don't need a large or fast system card." What is YOUR use case where you already know, 1.5 years in advance of a Pandora 2 release, that you won't need it to be fast?


You DO realize that you are arguing for the Pandora 2 to be a slower booting and slower running device, right?

You could have thought of this reasoning if you really cared about public opinion... and that is why I'm "going after you". I'd elaborate but I'm sure you know what I and many others think of you.

You seem to have a misunderstandings of the basics of debate. One purpose can be to move or change public opinion. I've chosen to do that through two methods:


1. Education around the capabilities of the two card types.


2. Asking people to examine their actual usage patterns and plans - to see if what their initial decision around this subject was is mutable based on reason.


Several of you have decided this is about me. I'm flattered, but that is the tactic used if you can not find a logical argument - then you attack your opponent. Lets talk about device configurations. It's much more interesting.

 

[Grench]

Grench your ability to keep track of a conversation makes you a frusterateing person to debate with.

You do realize I'm debating with 6 people at once, right? Sorry if it feels like I'm 'blending' the counter debate.

We went on about how a 3 slot device wasnt feaseable due to size, so i recommened a space saving strategy and you cant see the relevence? I cant help you, im sorry...

You showed a device that stacked a microSD and a sim card. That in itself wasn't relevant, however I expanded on that to the idea of doing stacked microSD racks inside the device which lead to our next quote...

So if the 1 full = 2 mini stripe then why not just use that and still save physical space? The houseing for the full size slot is more than twice the space as micro and thickness

THIS is actually a viable option IF we can really push the envelope on it and ignore costs.


If you really want this next Pandora iteration to be so fast/powerful that it makes all other handheld devices seem like disposable game consoles, then give it RAID.


If you have a module that will stack microSD, then give it two or even three of those dual stacks and a RAID controller that can be configured, in BIOS to RAID 0,1,10 or 5. So that is 4 or 6 microSD cards. The GB/sec should be double to 6X what a normal microSD can handle - and fully populated device costs would skyrocket. $700 Pandora 2 + $600 in media = handheld server.


It's a cool idea, but not overly realistic.


Still, if we put two microSD inside, included a stripe RAID controller on it for speed, accepted the doubled card/device default rate that implies, then yes, a dual internal microSD system could equal a single internal SD system in speed and capacity. That is correct. It would be more expensive too, but not outrageously so.