Pandora with microSD - will you buy it?

[Grench]

Yes, I have numbers and I have presented them repeatedly. You can not compare between 2 equal tiers of cards to answer the 'which is better' question. You need to compare the best of what is available at any given DATE, not by CLASS. If you insist on comparing equal class and ratings - then you're dealing with SDXC cards over 1.5 years old vs the latest microSD cards.

To my knowledge, the highest end microSDXC card on the market right now is a 64GB Sandisk class 6 card.


The highest end SDXC card is a 128GB Class 10 UHS-I with 90MB/sec reads and 60MB/sec writes.

Dude, you knew the 90MB/s microSD card was coming, were you really not going to confirm that it isn't actually out before making that comment?


You can buy one here.. http://www.cellphoneshop.net/32mb.html


Sandisk also recently announced similarly specced Extreme Pro microSD.

You're right - I should look more closely at media I'm not interested in.


Now, please follow your own link and explain why there is only a 95MB/sec full sized SDXC card listed there.


The card you listed is a Sandisk Extreme Pro 32GB full sized SDXC card. There is feedback for that card from January 2012 on Amazon.com.


http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Extreme-UHS-1-Memory-SDSDXPA-032G-X46/dp/B005LFT3QG/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1342646867&sr=1-2&keywords=90mb%2Fs+sdxc


However - it was also released as a 64GB card in SDXC form at the same time - and the earliest note for that one is December 9, 2011.


So - where is the 128GB 90MB/sec microSD card to make this comparison to?


microSD is ALWAYS a compromise. Loose speed and/or GB and/or price vs full sized cards.

I don't know when the first ~90MB/s full SD cards were released but the earliest announcement I can find is from September 2011. The earliest announcement for the microSD ones was back in April. So that's about 7 months, not 1.5-2 years or whatever.


It's not fair for you to say that full SD will always have the advantage in EVERY metric of capacity, speed, and price, then only use the fastest AND largest capacity cards for comparison. If you really want to make a serious argument about SD vs microSD performance trending post several data points of when the first of whatever speed was introduced. I'm pretty confident that the gap has narrowed, and if that's true wouldn't it probably continue to narrow?

The -overwhelming majority- of users have stated that a device with ONLY microSD is unacceptable.

47.2% is not an overwhelming majority.


That number should be enough to take alarm, but it's not as alarming as the over two-thirds who don't want to buy Pandora 2 at $699.

ONLY <26% of the response to this poll 'don't care'. >74% would RATHER have at least one full sized SD port. For >47% it is a complete deal killer.


Unacceptable was too harsh - what would you call it if you're producing a device that 75% of your own customers state they'd rather have it configured in a very specific way and 25% 'don't care'?


You're assuming that the, 'Yes, I don't mind much at all.' crowd are FOR microSD. They just aren't AGAINST it. The vast majority would RATHER have at least two full sized SD slots - and then they don't care much beyond that.

 

[Exophase]

You're right - I should look more closely at media I'm not interested in.

No, you should look more closely at making accurate claims. If you don't care to verify what you say then don't say it.

Now, please follow your own link and explain why there is only a 95MB/sec full sized SDXC card listed there.

Accidentally linked to the wrong thing. Try this instead: http://www.sandisk.com/products/memory-cards/microsd/extremepro-uhs-i/


Or were you hoping I was actually wrong but still didn't bother googling it yourself to confirm it?

So - where is the 128GB 90MB/sec microSD card to make this comparison to?

microSD is ALWAYS a compromise. Loose speed and/or GB and/or price vs full sized cards.

You've said several times that microSD is ALWAYS slower, smaller, and more expensive. I've shown that currently, the fastest microSD is as fast as the fastest SD, and you always reply "yeah but it's smaller", which I gave you from the beginning. Stop doing that.

Unacceptable was too harsh - what would you call it if you're producing a device that 75% of your own customers state they'd rather have it configured in a very specific way and 25% 'don't care'?

I'd probably just call it that?

You're assuming that the, 'Yes, I don't mind much at all.' crowd are FOR microSD. They just aren't AGAINST it.

No I don't. Why would you think that?

 

[Grench]

You're right - I should look more closely at media I'm not interested in.

No, you should look more closely at making accurate claims. If you don't care to verify what you say then don't say it.

Now, please follow your own link and explain why there is only a 95MB/sec full sized SDXC card listed there.

Accidentally linked to the wrong thing. Try this instead: http://www.sandisk.com/products/memory-cards/microsd/extremepro-uhs-i/


Or were you hoping I was actually wrong but still didn't bother googling it yourself to confirm it?

Ahem... "No, you should look more closely at making accurate claims."


THAT link is for a [bold]16GB[/bold] 90MB/sec microSDXC card only available from it's manufacturer (not stocked anywhere). You're comparring that to [bold]128GB[bold] 90MB/sec SDXC cards that have been on the market for 7 months.


Do you see any disconnect there? You're claiming that a card with 1/8th the capacity is 'equivalent'?


So, I ask again, where is the 128GB 90MB/sec microSD card to make this comparison to?

So - where is the 128GB 90MB/sec microSD card to make this comparison to?

microSD is ALWAYS a compromise. Loose speed and/or GB and/or price vs full sized cards.

You've said several times that microSD is ALWAYS slower, smaller, and more expensive. I've shown that currently, the fastest microSD is as fast as the fastest SD, and you always reply "yeah but it's smaller", which I gave you from the beginning. Stop doing that.

Unacceptable was too harsh - what would you call it if you're producing a device that 75% of your own customers state they'd rather have it configured in a very specific way and 25% 'don't care'?

I'd probably just call it that?

You're assuming that the, 'Yes, I don't mind much at all.' crowd are FOR microSD. They just aren't AGAINST it.

No I don't. Why would you think that?

Previous statements where you've claimed that the 'vast majority' WANT microSD in their Pandora 2. Do I need to dig them up for you?

 

[Exophase]

Ahem... "No, you should look more closely at making accurate claims."

THAT link is for a [bold]16GB[/bold] 90MB/sec microSDXC card only available from it's manufacturer (not stocked anywhere). You're comparring that to [bold]128GB[bold] 90MB/sec SDXC cards that have been on the market for 7 months.


Do you see any disconnect there? You're claiming that a card with 1/8th the capacity is 'equivalent'?

No, I don't see a disconnect. I see an order button from a supplier that lists it as IN STOCK and lets me purchase it and I really couldn't care less if it's the manufacturer who is selling it - although of course that doesn't mean no one else on the planet is. What I do see is you grasping at straws to win an argument. (and that you've forgotten how to use bold tags)


But keep bringing up size in a speed comparison, that never gets old. And nowhere have I ever called your 128GB card "equivalent" to this 16GB one, I've said it's as fast. You have some really unique reading comprehension skills.

Previous statements where you've claimed that the 'vast majority' WANT microSD in their Pandora 2. Do I need to dig them up for you?

Yes, please dig up these things I never said. All I've ever claimed is that the majority of people prefer 1x internal microSD and 2x external full SD to 1x internal full SD, 1x external full SD, and 1x external microSD.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

I read very carefully all statements here, and it's pretty clear everyone want Mini SD.

 

[Exophase]

I read very carefully all statements here, and it's pretty clear everyone want Mini SD.

Please stop spamming

 

[Linux-SWAT]

I told you not to feed the trolls...


This thread is a parody since a long time ago. I just add my own nonsense.

 

[Grench]

I told you not to feed the trolls...


This thread is a parody since a long time ago. I just add my own nonsense.

I like your nonsense - makes me smile.

 

[bismuthdrummer]

Grench, the problem with your arguments is it's what YOU want, not what EVERYONE wants, and there have been compelling arguments for why MicroSD would be better for an internal slot, namely that a connecter that would take much less space is possible, but not known to be possible with full SD. Besides, the fact of the matter is if there are two external full SD slots, and you can boot from one of those, your seemingly uncommon preference is still possible.

Agreed, there has been lots of writing revolving around the same arguments, but nothing I've read addresses why the poll numbers in the other thread show internal microSD + 2 full-size external SD to be the obvious favorite at this stage. Granted, the sample is fairly small, but then again the Pandora userbase doesn't rise to the millions, it stays down in the thousands at the moment.

...


The next device is slated to be smaller.


Therefore, the next device -can't- have two full sized exterior SD and one interior microSD. It needs to save space - so increasing the board footprint by adding a 3rd slot isn't going to happen - unless all 3 are micro SD.


Given a choice between a 3 slot microSD system or a 2 slot SDXC system, I would take the 2 slot SDXC system hands down. The majority of the users would too - as presence of an SDXC port is an overwhelming favorite.


...

So your response to the winning vote in your own poll... is that it is not a possible configuration.

Grench: "Which of the following storage configurations would you rather have in the Pandora 2? Choose as many as you would find as acceptable outcomes."





The winning vote: "No NAND, one internal microSDXC, two external SDXC."





Grench: "Wrong answer! The device will be smaller than that."

<_< Ever consider lawyering? Or maybe you are a lawyer... in which case you would understand you didn't answer my inquiry.


I wanted an explanation for why the winning vote is coming out against you. Specifically, your own poll does not agree with your opinion on the most acceptable configuration, and I am looking for a concession or reconciliation somewhere. I am finding none.


You can't keep refitting the question to suit your malformed argument; that's legerdemain and frankly idiotic.


I'm not even going to bother with the rest of it.

 

[Grench]

Grench, the problem with your arguments is it's what YOU want, not what EVERYONE wants, and there have been compelling arguments for why MicroSD would be better for an internal slot, namely that a connecter that would take much less space is possible, but not known to be possible with full SD. Besides, the fact of the matter is if there are two external full SD slots, and you can boot from one of those, your seemingly uncommon preference is still possible.

Agreed, there has been lots of writing revolving around the same arguments, but nothing I've read addresses why the poll numbers in the other thread show internal microSD + 2 full-size external SD to be the obvious favorite at this stage. Granted, the sample is fairly small, but then again the Pandora userbase doesn't rise to the millions, it stays down in the thousands at the moment.

...


The next device is slated to be smaller.


Therefore, the next device -can't- have two full sized exterior SD and one interior microSD. It needs to save space - so increasing the board footprint by adding a 3rd slot isn't going to happen - unless all 3 are micro SD.


Given a choice between a 3 slot microSD system or a 2 slot SDXC system, I would take the 2 slot SDXC system hands down. The majority of the users would too - as presence of an SDXC port is an overwhelming favorite.


...

So your response to the winning vote in your own poll... is that it is not a possible configuration.

Grench: "Which of the following storage configurations would you rather have in the Pandora 2? Choose as many as you would find as acceptable outcomes."





The winning vote: "No NAND, one internal microSDXC, two external SDXC."





Grench: "Wrong answer! The device will be smaller than that."

<_< Ever consider lawyering? Or maybe you are a lawyer... in which case you would understand you didn't answer my inquiry.


I wanted an explanation for why the winning vote is coming out against you. Specifically, your own poll does not agree with your opinion on the most acceptable configuration, and I am looking for a concession or reconciliation somewhere. I am finding none.


You can't keep refitting the question to suit your malformed argument; that's legerdemain and frankly idiotic.


I'm not even going to bother with the rest of it.

The other poll is about, what do you WANT in the device, not what is possible.


I would like the Pandora II to be the Tardis from Dr. Who too - bigger inside than out.


My argument that you are taking exception with is based on 'facing the facts' of space constraints.


The winning vote - summarizing categories - is that people WANT at least two SD slots in the device - and don't care much whether it has microSD in addition to those or not.


The other constraints on the system, size, needing one port internal, etc. THOSE dictate that if you're going to have 2 full sized SD slots, then you don't have room for any -more- slots, and that one of those slots must be internal, and that we all want it to be a fast machine with plenty of storage, etc.


People keep asking me how I get to the logical conclusion of a 2 full sized SD slot machine with one internal. I keep stating it. I have been VERY consistent in this.

 

[diligentcircle]

The other constraints on the system, size, needing one port internal, etc. THOSE dictate that if you're going to have 2 full sized SD slots, then you don't have room for any -more- slots, and that one of those slots must be internal, and that we all want it to be a fast machine with plenty of storage, etc.

Please, STOP pretending that an internal SD card would take the same amount of space as an external one. It has already been argued why an internal card could take up potentially twice as much space as an external one while an internal MicroSD won't, and you still haven't addressed this. You just keep ignoring it.

People keep asking me how I get to the logical conclusion of a 2 full sized SD slot machine with one internal. I keep stating it. I have been VERY consistent in this.

I personally don't give a flying fuck about your consistency when you're over-simplifying the size restrictions in the design like you have been. And of course, now you're assuming that everyone who wants 2 SD + 1 internal MicroSD would have 1 external + 1 internal SD if, as you assume, their preference isn't possible because of space. That's all your arguments are: a string of assumptions and simplifications. So actually, please stop being consistent.

 

[SNESFAN]

People want 2 external full sd card. Ive seen nowhere else even suggest otherwise.


People dont seem to care as much if the internal is micro mini full sized as long as it has large storeage.


The next higher preference appears to be is that its removeable over nand.


Then the next higher preference is micro over full.


If you can boot to external sd why does it matter?


Sent from my MB612 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Grench]

The other constraints on the system, size, needing one port internal, etc. THOSE dictate that if you're going to have 2 full sized SD slots, then you don't have room for any -more- slots, and that one of those slots must be internal, and that we all want it to be a fast machine with plenty of storage, etc.

Please, STOP pretending that an internal SD card would take the same amount of space as an external one. It has already been argued why an internal card could take up potentially twice as much space as an external one while an internal MicroSD won't, and you still haven't addressed this. You just keep ignoring it.

I have stated this repeatedly too. I don't blame you for not reading the entire thread(s) though. There are several simple solutions.


Have the internal full sized SD slot eject INTO the battery compartment.


Another is to have the battery lid cover the 'internal' SD port as well as the battery.


It does not need 2x the space of a full sized external SD card. It never did.

People keep asking me how I get to the logical conclusion of a 2 full sized SD slot machine with one internal. I keep stating it. I have been VERY consistent in this.

I personally don't give a flying fuck about your consistency when you're over-simplifying the size restrictions in the design like you have been. And of course, now you're assuming that everyone who wants 2 SD + 1 internal MicroSD would have 1 external + 1 internal SD if, as you assume, their preference isn't possible because of space. That's all your arguments are: a string of assumptions and simplifications. So actually, please stop being consistent.

Please keep the debate/discourse polite?


I have explained two simple ways to prevent an internal SD card from requiring 'twice the space'.


The, 'Two External Full Sized Ports AND One Internal microSD Port,' idea is just as theoretical as my example - except that it requires even more space be taken up by the SD media.


I have explained my ideas, repeatedly. I have given great detail as to 'how it could work'.


No-one has explained how they plan to have two full sized SD slots, add a third SD slot (microSD) to the board AND shrink the device AND add more components to the motherboard. I'm convinced they think the Pandora is a Tardis and is bigger on the inside.


So, you are adamant about YOUR configuration. How would THAT work? What do you plan to give up to make it work?

 

[Grench]

People want 2 external full sd card. Ive seen nowhere else even suggest otherwise.

Confusion of need vs want.


Mmm... I think they -need- at least one external full sized SD port.


They -want- two full sized SD ports, an internal card, etc.


They want the Pandora to do their dishes too - that isn't going to happen.

People dont seem to care as much if the internal is micro mini full sized as long as it has large storeage.

Your statement "so long as it has large storage" is directly incompatible with that internal slot being microSD. Large is defined by one item's capacity in comparison to the other items available at that time. microSD will always be lower capacity.

The next higher preference appears to be is that its removeable over nand.

I agree. non-removable NAND has to go.

Then the next higher preference is micro over full.

BUT only if the device has two full sized external SD. Remove even one of those external SD ports and microSD suddenly becomes MUCH less tenable.

If you can boot to external sd why does it matter?

The internal slot is there to prevent users from ejecting their OS media.


OpenPandora will likely have to provide one piece of media for an internal slot.


They will be able to buy a faster 'stock' SD card for the same money as a slower 'stock' microSD card.


Reviewers won't grab a super-high-speed SD card to put in an external port and rebuild the unit before making their judgment. They will use whatever it ships with. Faster media results in better reviews.


Increasing the capacity by >=2X while increasing the GB/sec by 1-2X on the boot system media is simply a good idea.


What is the alternative that YOU think is better? Why?

 

[SNESFAN]

For an internal media i would think a class 10 8-16GB card stock would be more than sufficient as a os media as long as there are 2 additional removable media slots.


I think most people would find that acceptable.

 

[Grench]

For an internal media i would think a class 10 8-16GB card stock would be more than sufficient as a os media as long as there are 2 additional removable media slots.


I think most people would find that acceptable.

That is a 3 slot device. Something would have to 'give'.


Do you find it acceptable if all 3 slots in your example are microSD?


Also, what is your purpose in having TWO external slots?


If an external slot can house a 'huge' in GB card, do you really need 2 exposed?


If the internal storage can be 'huge', would you really need them to both be external?


By 2014 I expect SDXC cards to be in the 256GB & 180MB/sec range.


My best guess is that microSDXC will lag behind that to around the level we're seeing for SDXC now - so call it 128GB and 90MB/sec.


If you had one of those (256GB SD or 128GB microSD) internal and one external, is there any need that would not be met in that configuration? I.e. would you really 'need' 3 slots in the device? Would the ability to use a USB 3.0 card reader - at full card speeds - be adequate for those 3rd slot needs?

 

[Binky]

I have stated this repeatedly too. I don't blame you for not reading the entire thread(s) though. There are several simple solutions. Have the internal full sized SD slot eject INTO the battery compartment. Another is to have the battery lid cover the 'internal' SD port as well as the battery. It does not need 2x the space of a full sized external SD card. It never did.

This is not the point.


Unless you can find an SD card holder component that will allow you to eject the SD card directly away from the PCB, you will have to slide it along the PCB before you can get it out.


The area needed to slide it out is equal to the size of the memory card


Ejecting it into the battery compartment is irrelevant

 

[Linux-SWAT]

All this debate is very interesting, but what about the color of the card ?


I mean, it was proven that black cards are better than blue ones, but is a blue micro SD better than a black full size SD ?


That is the real question.

 

[Grench]

I have stated this repeatedly too. I don't blame you for not reading the entire thread(s) though. There are several simple solutions. Have the internal full sized SD slot eject INTO the battery compartment. Another is to have the battery lid cover the 'internal' SD port as well as the battery. It does not need 2x the space of a full sized external SD card. It never did.

This is not the point.


Unless you can find an SD card holder component that will allow you to eject the SD card directly away from the PCB, you will have to slide it along the PCB before you can get it out.


The area needed to slide it out is equal to the size of the memory card


Ejecting it into the battery compartment is irrelevant

I understand that argument - but it is invalid. There is more than one place to put it.


Instead of putting the slot in the center of the motherboard, place it so that the exposed 'end' points into the battery compartment.


The existing Pandora's battery lives nearly centered in the back of the device. Slide that to one side and there is more than adequate room to have an SD card eject into that space - and still leave room in that 'volume' for the stylus. Yes, this means that the internal SDXC connector itself would need to be 'upside down' on the reverse side of the board - and like the USB host connector live 'under the crack'.


Alternatively, it could 'side eject' through a unit with an extra 90* wing on one end of the battery compartment door - in this case it would live between the battery and the system board - again on the back side of the system board.

 

[Grench]

All this debate is very interesting, but what about the color of the card ?


I mean, it was proven that black cards are better than blue ones, but is a blue micro SD better than a black full size SD ?


That is the real question.

That is actually more of a dilemma for exposed card slots.


After I get my 1Ghz Pandora I'll be somewhat tempted to strip the silver case off of it and put my old cracked black case on it so that my black card edges will blend into the front of the device again.