Pandora, Looking Good!

[trooper]

At the moment, I don't see this delaying the November launch as I have known about the new silicon for a little while now.

Kinda like the nubs weren't supposed to cause a delay, huh? :rolleyes: Of course I don't blame you guys, I sympathize with you 100%. Both instances were completely out of your hands; but at this point, it almost seems as if divine providence is working against this thing coming out.

I would rather the wait, Than be a beagle board or archos purchaser at this moment in time.

Trooper

 

[CronoTriggerfan]

At the moment, I don't see this delaying the November launch as I have known about the new silicon for a little while now.

Kinda like the nubs weren't supposed to cause a delay, huh? :rolleyes: Of course I don't blame you guys, I sympathize with you 100%. Both instances were completely out of your hands; but at this point, it almost seems as if divine providence is working against this thing coming out.

I would rather the wait, Than be a beagle board or archos purchaser at this moment in time.

Trooper

Agreed, but I think you kinda missed the point. It's not whether or not you would like to wait longer or not for whatever reason, but that there have been so many development kinks thrown at the team up to this point.

 

[TaG]

It's a shame the real case didn't make it in time. Can't wait to see that one!

It's a *REAL* same the real *THING* didn't make it in time - you know - like they said it would a couple months back.Delays are unfortunate, but nobody can predict the future. A couple months back, you said you'd jump ship if the Pandora got delayed beyond August. Apparently situations have changed enough that you're going back on your previous statements, just as situations have changed that have pushed back the Pandora ship date. Such is life.Frankly Chad its a real shame you didn't stick to your threat - have you got nothing better to do in life than keep bitching and moaning about when a bit of electronics kit comes out? Do you really think that everyone wants to keep reading the same thing over and over in every thread that gives you the opportunity? Hell we all wanted this thing ages ago, but as Chip said, such is life.

 

[gruso]

Chad - there are also [size] tags if you don't feel you're adding enough emphasis. Just a heads up.

 

[ldesnogu]

There is a work around and it does work fine, but the problem is that it slows down NEON performance a lot and we don't want that for Pandora.

Does that really slow it down that much? IIRC it's a few percent.
QUOTE
I just wonder what version the new Archos players are using since they are being manufactured right now!

I think you have X labelled chips (samples) that should not go into production. I guess Archos is getting the "final" chips at least I hope

 

[gibberish]

chad you are so boring man, please find a hobby or something that doesnt involve moaning on forums all day long.

i too am annoyed by the amount of delays, ive even decided that i wont be pre-ordering anymore because i dont think it will ship on the date promised to us. but the difference is, i keep it to myself. what makes you feel like you need to moan like a kid on here all the time, getting on the nerves of everybody who is working so hard to get this device released WITHOUT FLAWS. most of these problems are out of the hands of developers, maybe you should find some contact details for TI and have a good old moan at them instead?!

 

[hlidegp2x]

There is a work around and it does work fine, but the problem is that it slows down NEON performance a lot and we don't want that for Pandora.

Does that really slow it down that much? IIRC it's a few percent.
QUOTE
I just wonder what version the new Archos players are using since they are being manufactured right now!

I think you have X labelled chips (samples) that should not go into production. I guess Archos is getting the "final" chips at least I hope

I received a beagleboard today. Can you elaborate the problem and the workaround ?

 

[fusion_power]

OMAP3 NEON bug in silicon

(nothing I did)


Wow, sounds scary. "". I thought, TI (or ARM) knows how to make a Chipset. How can such Bugs happen? Sounds a little bit like they don't payed much attention to the NEON thing.

 

[WizardStan]

At the moment, I don't see this delaying the November launch as I have known about the new silicon for a little while now. I just wonder what version the new Archos players are using since they are being manufactured right now!

See, this is what I talked about in an earlier thread, and what I think may be contributing to Chad's ever revolving arguments. If you don't expect it to cause a delay, make one up. What happens if there is a delay now and it has to be pushed a couple of weeks?
I have a great deal of understanding for "this didn't work out as planned, so schedules are changing" but saying you don't expect there to be a delay, and then there being a delay anyway makes parts of my mind very suspicious and doubtful.
As much as I would hate to have heard now that shipments are going to be delayed due to manufacturing problems, I would hate even more to be told there won't be a delay, and then have it delayed anyway.
And if you say there'll be a delay, and there's not, then everyone gets a bonus: 2 week earlier release! WHEE!
Be pessimistic and you'll never be disappointed.

 

[icurafu]

It's amazing how hysterical people are getting over this.

The current board revision that the Pandora is NOT based on has a bug that TI are aware of and will fix before the release of the next board revision that the Pandora is using.

If this is anything, it is validating the slow and steady approach.

And if what Laurent says is true, it's not a massive bug unless your focus would be games that are heavily dependent on floats.

 

[Null]

It's amazing how hysterical people are getting over this.

Imagine what it would be like if we'd have been told about all of the problems that the Pandora team has run into.

 

[Pleng]

At the moment, I don't see this delaying the November launch as I have known about the new silicon for a little while now. I just wonder what version the new Archos players are using since they are being manufactured right now!

If you don't expect it to cause a delay, make one up. What happens if there is a delay now and it has to be pushed a couple of weeks?

...

I would hate even more to be told there won't be a delay, and then have it delayed anyway.


This is unfortunately why developers should just keep quiet and not say anything. Because 'I don't expect a delay' somehow gets transformed very quickly (in less than the time it takes to even finish writing a post) inot 'There won't be a delay'.

 

[bullwood]

There is a work around and it does work fine, but the problem is that it slows down NEON performance a lot and we don't want that for Pandora.

Does that really slow it down that much? IIRC it's a few percent.
QUOTE
I just wonder what version the new Archos players are using since they are being manufactured right now!

I think you have X labelled chips (samples) that should not go into production. I guess Archos is getting the "final" chips at least I hope

I received a beagleboard today. Can you elaborate the problem and the workaround ?

I would also be interested in the problem and workaround, as I should be receiving my Beagleboard today (according to UPS tracking). Maybe a link?

 

[icurafu]

I don't think BB even uses NEON yet. It'll probably be a driver, linux os patch. Or even a compiler patch... like SDL re-release.

I have not heard of Pandora using NEON yet.

 

[WizardStan]

This is unfortunately why developers should just keep quiet and not say anything. Because 'I don't expect a delay' somehow gets transformed very quickly (in less than the time it takes to even finish writing a post) inot 'There won't be a delay'.

Not quite the point I was going for, but yeah, that's pretty much it. When an expert makes a statement, it's natural to take that as a statement of confidence. And if the expert has confidence, who am I to argue?
An example, if I may: If my doctor says he doesn't expect me to have a heart attack in the next six months, I'm not going to think about it at all. If I then have a heart attack in the next few weeks, I'm going to be quite upset. "How could you not see this was coming?" I'll ask. "Oh yeah, you did mention you eat 3 lbs of bacon a day. Guess I should have considered that", he'll respond. And then I will be dead. Sucks to be me.
The expert (MWeston) knows there's a problem that could potentially cause a delay, and then goes on to say it shouldn't cause a delay. If it does turn out to be a bigger problem then anticipated and there is a delay, his status as expert is questioned because of that confidence he originally displayed.
The first time it happens it's easy to shrug off. But if it happens repeatedly, you'll begin to question their status as expert. Maybe not consciously, the brain makes all kinds of judgments the conscious mind isn't aware of, and it may take longer for some than others, but sooner or later you reach the point where the expert has been wrong so often, you can't really call him an expert anymore.
Am I explaining my point well enough yet, or shall I rephrase it again?

 

[Megamixman]

This is unfortunately why developers should just keep quiet and not say anything. Because 'I don't expect a delay' somehow gets transformed very quickly (in less than the time it takes to even finish writing a post) inot 'There won't be a delay'.

Not quite the point I was going for, but yeah, that's pretty much it. When an expert makes a statement, it's natural to take that as a statement of confidence. And if the expert has confidence, who am I to argue?
An example, if I may: If my doctor says he doesn't expect me to have a heart attack in the next six months, I'm not going to think about it at all. If I then have a heart attack in the next few weeks, I'm going to be quite upset. "How could you not see this was coming?" I'll ask. "Oh yeah, you did mention you eat 3 lbs of bacon a day. Guess I should have considered that", he'll respond. And then I will be dead. Sucks to be me.
The expert (MWeston) knows there's a problem that could potentially cause a delay, and then goes on to say it shouldn't cause a delay. If it does turn out to be a bigger problem then anticipated and there is a delay, his status as expert is questioned because of that confidence he originally displayed.
The first time it happens it's easy to shrug off. But if it happens repeatedly, you'll begin to question their status as expert. Maybe not consciously, the brain makes all kinds of judgments the conscious mind isn't aware of, and it may take longer for some than others, but sooner or later you reach the point where the expert has been wrong so often, you can't really call him an expert anymore.
Am I explaining my point well enough yet, or shall I rephrase it again?


Nice analogy, with the exception of the fact that this kind of time line for this kind of project with the level of resources they likely have is, is pretty much common. The only companies that can avoid these major delays due to major third party components ( especially the main proc ) are ones that develop their own SoC. Most other companies just have to live with it, do what they can and hope for the best, especially at this point in the game.


Also, this is unlikely to cause a delay because it is an issue dealing with the silicon and silicon only. In effect, current OMAP3 silicon doesn't run NEON instructions correctly. Which means replacing the SoC should do the trick. No redesign of the board, etc. This means that current development can continue for the most part, but current tests on anything to do with NEON instructions are inaccurate. When TI released the new revision, the old SoC can be replaced, a few tests to make sure NEON instructions are working and everything continues on.

 

[sparkymark]

At the moment, I don't see this delaying the November launch as I have known about the new silicon for a little while now. I just wonder what version the new Archos players are using since they are being manufactured right now!

See, this is what I talked about in an earlier thread, and what I think may be contributing to Chad's ever revolving arguments. If you don't expect it to cause a delay, make one up. What happens if there is a delay now and it has to be pushed a couple of weeks?
I have a great deal of understanding for "this didn't work out as planned, so schedules are changing" but saying you don't expect there to be a delay, and then there being a delay anyway makes parts of my mind very suspicious and doubtful.
As much as I would hate to have heard now that shipments are going to be delayed due to manufacturing problems, I would hate even more to be told there won't be a delay, and then have it delayed anyway.
And if you say there'll be a delay, and there's not, then everyone gets a bonus: 2 week earlier release! WHEE!
Be pessimistic and you'll never be disappointed.



I use this often at work. Under promise, over deliver - keeps the business happy! In this case though I like that they're being accurate and just keeping us up to date, and I'll still be pre-ordering!

 

[likwidoxigen]

I use this often at work. Under promise, over deliver - keeps the business happy! In this case though I like that they're being accurate and just keeping us up to date, and I'll still be pre-ordering!

Me as well. But I fail to see how this is an issue. So a board that wasn't planned on being used in production has a silicon bug that they know about and will fix for the board that will be used in production.
My Goodness that DOES sound SOOO TERRIBLE!! I'm still pre-ordering, I'm just not sure if i'm pre-ordering 1 or 2.... but that just depends on how much money I have saved.

 

[ldesnogu]

OMAP3 NEON bug in silicon

(nothing I did)


Wow, sounds scary. "". I thought, TI (or ARM) knows how to make a Chipset. How can such Bugs happen? Sounds a little bit like they don't payed much attention to the NEON thing.

Yeah, it's not like AMD or Intel never sold (and still sell, look at their errata sheets and kernel workarounds) millions of chips with bugs :rolleyes:

I don't think BB even uses NEON yet. It'll probably be a driver, linux os patch. Or even a compiler patch... like SDL re-release.

BeagleBoard uses NEON for FFmpeg, and very nicely thanks to Mans Rullgard who also did a kernel patch around the NEON bug (on which I can't comment ).

 

[ljones]

OMAP3 NEON bug in silicon

(nothing I did)


Wow, sounds scary. "". I thought, TI (or ARM) knows how to make a Chipset. How can such Bugs happen? Sounds a little bit like they don't payed much attention to the NEON thing.



CPU bugs are nothing new. Even the ancient 6502 CPU had a bug regarding one of its commands, the JMP command I believe!

ljones