Pandora "keyboard Edition"

[beware116]

People who think that the UMPC/MID market will soon leave no room for the P are wrong. All the Atom based mids we've seen so far cost more than 600$ (even the most striped versions!) and have shorter (much shorter) battery live. I'm not naive about the future and I don't want to say the P-keyboard edition will easily outperform any Sony/Nokia/Whatever device on the market. Yet I think that the P-keyboard edition might be profitable for the devs or a least bring back the money invested into its construction.
But you know what..If there is no alternative on the market, I'll be buying the P even with todays striped keyboard. And I think there won't be a competitor on the market for the same price and with the same size/features/battery life - that is why I'm still here.
The UMPC crowd on these forums asking (more or less politely) for a bigger keyboard or some other additional UMPC-features will buy the P anyway. Believe me.

Yes, the Atom based MIDs are expensive, but the Atom is new. By the time a Pandora KE would be designed and ready to go, the Atom price will have already dropped. And the battery life is also something that will increase quite rapidly. The Atom is like the most efficient computing platform ever designed, there are already two MIDs/UMPCs out there on the Atom processor that sip less than 3W! This is not the fault of the Atom, but of the OEMs. Also, the Atom processor is MUCH more powerful than the ARM architecture the P is built on, therefore it will suck more power, but there are also MIDs based on ARM and ones built on AMD and ones built on other Intel and ones based on VIA, etc. I find it hard to believe that a PKE would churn any kind of decent profit for the devs. It would be overlooked in a market that is beginning to really boom right now. And easier solution would be some sort of docking station with a keyboard built in or a foldable, bluetooth keyboard.

 

[TaG]

On Maplin's newsletter this appeared today. Its not directly related to Pandora but the relevance is that there has been nothing cheaper than £200 so far in UK, and on day one this is £169.99 (approx $275 taking off VAT). I can't find what chip/board etc it uses, but a few of the specs are:

Linux, 7" 800*480 screen, 2GB SSD, wifi, SD, DDR2 128MB memory. So its sort of in the same ball park, but to a different market.

So echoing beware116's thoughts, by the time they could have developed the KE there will be other devices around, probably at a cheaper price point and I don't see that the KE would have any real product differentiation - which it does with gaming controls.

 

[chad78]

On Maplin's newsletter this appeared today.
This is not what danboid was asking for either. It's the same size screen as the Eee PC - and while there is not the big frame around the screen (from what I can see) that there was on the 701 series Eees - it's still not pocketable.

Shipping Weight (in kg): 650g
Size: 222(l) x165(w) x 29.5(d) mm

That's 8.75" x 6.5" x 1.2"
Over an inch thick and almost 9 inches long and almost 1.5 pounds? - no, it's not pocketable.

That's another Eee PC clone netbook - not a "Mini-mini notebook" or a Pandora-sized laptop. I'm not saying anything bad about the device, I'm just saying it's not what this thread is about.

So echoing beware116's thoughts, by the time they could have developed the KE there will be other devices around, probably at a cheaper price point and I don't see that the KE would have any real product differentiation - which it does with gaming controls.
The differentiation would be that it's a clamshell netbook-style device that fits in your pocket. There's nothing else like that.

 

[CCmachined]

L = Tab (left side of keyboard)
R = Return / Enter (right side of keyboard)
X = Backspace (makes sense, X is like cancel)
A Y B = comma, dot, / (they are arranged that way on a QWERTY keyboard)
Select = Capslock (holding it down for shift would be awkward)
Left stick click + L = Ctrl (left stick click should be modifier)
Left Stick click + R = Alt

makes sense? there's no way you _need_ a full keyboard on this device.

alternatively, plug in a really small USB keyboard. If you're using it as a small computer, you will certainly have enough room for it on your workspace. use a hub and with a mouse too, much better. But for portability, just the small usb keyboard.

 

[God Ginrai]

On Maplin's newsletter this appeared today.
This is not what danboid was asking for either. It's the same size screen as the Eee PC - and while there is not the big frame around the screen (from what I can see) that there was on the 701 series Eees - it's still not pocketable.

Shipping Weight (in kg): 650g
Size: 222(l) x165(w) x 29.5(d) mm

That's 8.75" x 6.5" x 1.2"
Over an inch thick and almost 9 inches long and almost 1.5 pounds? - no, it's not pocketable.

That's another Eee PC clone netbook - not a "Mini-mini notebook" or a Pandora-sized laptop. I'm not saying anything bad about the device, I'm just saying it's not what this thread is about.

So echoing beware116's thoughts, by the time they could have developed the KE there will be other devices around, probably at a cheaper price point and I don't see that the KE would have any real product differentiation - which it does with gaming controls.
The differentiation would be that it's a clamshell netbook-style device that fits in your pocket. There's nothing else like that.

I think the point that they were trying to make is that the keyboard edition wouldn't sell.

Look at it this way:

How many people are going to buy a UMPC that isn't x86 compatible? Not enough, unless it was cheap enough in comparison to the x86 compatible ones. But now, this one that TaG linked to, if it is x86 compatible, would blow a Pandora KE out of the water, even if it isn't pocketable. Why? because it's x86 compatible, so people can run the programs they know and love, whereas they wouldn't for the most part on the Pandora.

I believe this is the point they are trying to make, which makes very much sense to me.

EDIT:

L = Tab (left side of keyboard)
R = Return / Enter (right side of keyboard)
X = Backspace (makes sense, X is like cancel)
A Y B = comma, dot, / (they are arranged that way on a QWERTY keyboard)
Select = Capslock (holding it down for shift would be awkward)
Left stick click + L = Ctrl (left stick click should be modifier)
Left Stick click + R = Alt

makes sense? there's no way you _need_ a full keyboard on this device.

alternatively, plug in a really small USB keyboard. If you're using it as a small computer, you will certainly have enough room for it on your workspace. use a hub and with a mouse too, much better. But for portability, just the small usb keyboard.

The new nubs don't have Stick click. Sucks, doesn't it?

-God Ginrai

 

[TaG]

@Chad Yes I know the facts you point out, and I agree - that is what I said the only relevance is that devices with 'similar' capabilities are coming out at a cheaper cost. OMAP3 is being taken up by more companies, including Motorola.

The only point I am trying to make is simple: By the time the team could develop the KE that Danboid wants it would probably not be competitive.

 

[Jaxartes]

If there was a "keyboard edition" of Pandora, I'd probably buy it (as even closer to what I want, than Pandora is). But I don't think there either will or should be. Others in this thread have pointed out various reasons why -- but I'd like to bring up one more: Having two different editions of Pandora seems likely to make both editions more expensive. More expensive to develop and build, at least, and that probably means more expensive to buy.

There are serious "fixed costs" in making any high-tech product. What that means is, there are some things you have to pay that are the same whether you are making a thousand units or a million. If you are making (and selling) a million units, those fixed costs are spread out among the whole million units; if you are only making a thousand units, the same fixed costs are not spread out as much, and they add a thousand times as much to the price.

With Pandora, the difference is not as extreme as a thousand versus a million. But having a "keyboard edition" of Pandora would increase those costs substantially (my guess is, less than 100% but not zero). It might increase the total number of Pandoras that get bought, but I doubt it would increase it all that much.

Other thoughts: I'm not sure how much leaving out the game controls would gain you, in terms of keyboard. A little more space, yes, but it's vertical space (above or below the current keys, rather than beside them); the traditional keyboard layout favors horizontal space (with the additional keys to the left and right of the alphabet keys).

 

[AireTamStorm]

The Pandora is primarily a gaming device. Suggesting a keyboard edition just because you do not like the idea of using the L / R keys as Control / Alt is simply unreasonable.

 

[Chip]

This thread should have been finished four pages ago, but just to stick one last nail in its coffin, consider this:

The OP used the Psion and Zaurus devices as benchmarks of portable typing bliss. Both the Psion series 5 (generally considered the best PDA keyboard ever made) and the Zaurus SL-C3000 have 49 keys (not counting arrow or dedicated program launch buttons). The Pandora has 43 keys (not counting menu buttons), which jumps up to 49 if you add the four face buttons and two shoulder buttons.

If the Pandora already has as many keys as its ideal predecessors, then there is nothing to be added. There is no need for a separate version of the device. Thread over.


EDIT: Special bonus - Size comparison of the Pandora, Psion, and Zaurus. The Psion has the smallest possible keyboard that could (arguably) be considered touch-typeable (by people with tiny, child-like hands). As you can see, the Pandora is not wide enough for touch-typeable keys. Any special keyboard edition would have to be a complete redesign. That's not going to happen in the foreseeable future. Thread double-over.

 

[chad78]

This thread should have been finished four pages ago,
So says the all-powerful, all-knowing Captain Chip.QUOTE
Both the Psion series 5 (generally considered the best PDA keyboard ever made) and the Zaurus SL-C3000 have 49 keys (not counting arrow or dedicated program launch buttons). The Pandora has 43 keys (not counting menu buttons), which jumps up to 49 if you add the four face buttons and two shoulder buttons.
The number of buttons isn't the only factor for making the Psion Series 5 the best PDA keyboard ever made. If it were, it would obviously share that title with the Zaurus, and I'm sure a ton of other devices. In fact, I know for sure there are handheld devices with *more* buttons - so they would beat the Psion for best keyboard. It's more than just the number of buttons - it's the size of those buttons, the placement of those buttons, the form those buttons take. The OP didn't just ask for more buttons - he asked for... Hell, I'll just quote him.

there are also those such as myself who would much rather scrap the joypad entirely to make way for a bigger and better integrated keyboard
Notice "Bigger" as a part of the "Bigger and better". The reason that the Psion's keyboard is so well-respected is because it's very close to a normal keyboard in terms of size of the keys, layout of the keys, and movement of the keys. See for yourself.

Now, how does that compare to the tiny one-piece of plastic or rubber keyboard that the Pandora is going to use?

There is a night and day difference between the two. Just because it has the same number of buttons (which - it doesn't, you're counting non-keyboard buttons as keys, while ignoring non-keyboard keys on the other systems) doesn't mean it's the same quality keyboard. The Xbox controller, the Dual Shock, and tons of cheap USB gamepads have the same number of buttons - but they are not the same quality and don't offer the same experience. More to the point, a ergonomic keyboard and a laptop's built in keyboard may share the same number of keys - but that doesn't make typing on them the same experience.
QUOTE
If the Pandora already has as many keys as its ideal predecessors, then there is nothing to be added. There is no need for a separate version of the device. Thread over.
Well, I was shocked that he hadn't locked the thread when I started typing this - but before I got finished - he *had* locked it. What would be added, Chip, would be USABILITY.

And, I'll restate the fact that I do not ask for, promote, or demand a keyboard edition. I understand the realities of where we are in the design cycle, and the slim-to-none chance of a future separate version. I understand most people who are interested in the Pandora are retro gamers and all of that stuff. I get it. I just hate the arrogance that Chip has saying "Thread over" and other bs, especially with his pseudo-intelligent sounding "reason" that it's over. God, you could take a bag of buttons, keys, shoulder buttons, d-pads, toggles, and switches - throw them on a table and drop a box around 49 of them, and - according to Chip - it would be the same thing as the best PDA keyboard ever.

 

[AireTamStorm]

The way to continue a locked topic is to PM the mod that locked it, and ask him to unlock it. Or, go above him and ask another mod. NOT, start a duplicate thread on the same topic.

 

[parag0n]

A pandora without controls is not a pandora. Take it to other consoles.

 

[Chip]

Well, I was shocked that he hadn't locked the thread when I started typing this - but before I got finished - he *had* locked it. What would be added, Chip, would be USABILITY.

I didn't lock this thread. I know how upset it makes you when I "censor" the boards, so I left it open. One of the other mods must have agreed that the topic was over and closed it.

You would get no additional usability by replacing the game controls on the Pandora with keyboard keys. You would actually have significantly less usability with that configuration. The Pandora keyboard is perfectly usable as-is with the thumb typing method. The only way to make it touch-typeable would be to make it at least as wide as the Psion, but like I said, even that stretches the limits of the term.

Both of my points still stand. The Psion and Zarus don't offer any more buttons than the Pandora, and the Pandora cannot be made any more typist-friendly without a complete hardware redesign. There still won't be a Keyboard Pandora anytime soon. Please just let it go.

 

[trooper]

For those interested, I was the one who locked the thread.
After reading Chips post, Which basically drew the thread to a close anyway, Considering the original poster had quite a few answers to his questions, One in particular was from MWeston himself.

So there was no real reason to keep this thread opened, And risk it degrading into a flame fest.

@Chad78

Have you used or owned a Psion series 5 ?, Do you know the physical dimensions of the series 5, There is at least 30mm difference in width between it and the Pandora.

Which does make it more difficult to intergrate a keyboard of similar standard to the series 5 into the Pandora.

Here is a size comparison of the Psion series 5, The Pandora and the Zaurus SL-C3000 Here

Trooper