Pandora "keyboard Edition"

[mechanizeddeath]

I don't really see a problem with the abbreviated keyboard either, at least not for how I see myself using it. The space bar location looks as though it might take a bit of getting used to though. But on a device this small, you have to make some compromises, it's not as if you'd be able to fit an old IBM buckling spring keyboard on the Pandora.

 

[skeezix]

the keyboard is absolutely essential; otherwise its just competing with other devices, and thats not likely a wise scenario. (For my own interest, it must have a keyboard.. this makes life awesome for emulation (Atari 8bit, ST, Amiga, and so on have keyboards!, plus text adventures, and using the device as a portable terminal with ssh and so on.. plus regular unix./linux activity.)

PAndora needs a keyboard, just as it is designed now

jeff

 

[danboid]

ljones:

If you want a non-portable Pandora thats already being catered for by the BeagleBoard- you could stick in any housing you want just as long as its bigger than the BB. The market for something that is as big or bigger than a laptop but only with Pandora/BB processing power is going to be teensy to non-existent though.

skeezix:

Oh yes! I totally agree there! This is the unofficial, super pro-keyboard thread yeah? Clamshell Linux with a good keyboard fundametalism you could say. Go keyboard!

 

[Prophet]

For those who either don't want the game controls or don't want the keyboard: Dont buy a Pandora. It's probably not for you.

Stop trying to make it into something else, because you want something else. The first Pandora hasn't even launched yet, so assuming any of you even had a point to make for later revisions - it's very premature to start doing so. It's also annoying to this forum and community in general. We've been thru all this before, ad nauseum.

 

[MWeston]

I think a PandorAAA is an interesting idea (that was a variation of the Asus EEE name in case I was too vague).

Since we know the guts fit in a small case, imagine the battery we could throw into a 6-8" version. The problem would be the competition as we move away from the niche market where we stand a chance. Would you give up x86 compatibility to have 24 hours of battery life on your laptop? I'm sure lots of people around here would, but how about the general population?

Personally, I don't like the idea of dropping the gaming controls on Pandora (not that anyone here is telling me to). This is what is missing from everything else. I've got lots of little devices with great media capabilities, but crappy or no gaming capability and I like to do different things if I am stuck somewhere like at an airport or at home waiting for someone.

Creating a more Zaurus-like device would be a complete redesign. Sure, I could modify the PCB without starting from scratch, but the case, buttons, support structure, mounting points all change so it's a lot of engineering time and cost all over again. It would have to be a guaranteed winner to be worth producing but right now I am focused on seeing the Pandora succeed. I have such big plans for it once in production. I want to focus on the software side of things and work on these 3D and DSP SDK's so that everyone from total novices to old pros can make some creative software. I think we lose that if the Pandora were just another mini-mini-laptop. It would be all about the main stream apps and not homebrew. BTW, all of these emulator demos are just to show people that everything they are used to on their GP2X will be on Pandora and run full speed so we can get that out of the way and move on to new and better software.

Also, making it a web tablet with a keyboard puts us in direct competition with Nokia's inevitable N900 (or whatever they will call it). Sure, we are more open but I don't think the general public will care.

 

[TaG]

Many interesting points there MWeston, especially re x86 and n900(? )competition and the gaming controls - essentially the Pandora fills a specific niche and to go outside that niche would not be a guaranteed success.

The part of the post I found particularly interesting is:

I have such big plans for it once in production. I want to focus on the software side of things and work on these 3D and DSP SDK's so that everyone from total novices to old pros can make some creative software.
That would be really nice, and once people start to create things they often carry on and often take it to the next level, which would be brilliant.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[nubie]

I think a PandorAAA is an interesting idea (that was a variation of the Asus EEE name in case I was too vague).

Since we know the guts fit in a small case, imagine the battery we could throw into a 6-8" version. The problem would be the competition as we move away from the niche market where we stand a chance. Would you give up x86 compatibility to have 24 hours of battery life on your laptop? I'm sure lots of people around here would, but how about the general population?
good point, but instead call it an email/video player and inform people of that. If it has the same out of the box capability of the Eeepc with insane battery life I think it would sell OK (I know XP versions of the Eee are shipping, I meant the EeeOS version, movie player, firefox/thunderbird)

QUOTE
Personally, I don't like the idea of dropping the gaming controls on Pandora (not that anyone here is telling me to). This is what is missing from everything else. I've got lots of little devices with great media capabilities, but crappy or no gaming capability and I like to do different things if I am stuck somewhere like at an airport or at home waiting for someone.
AMEN! That is exactly the point. And conversely there are a lot of (not so great) devices with no keyboards

QUOTE
Creating a more Zaurus-like device would be a complete redesign. Sure, I could modify the PCB without starting from scratch, but the case, buttons, support structure, mounting points all change so it's a lot of engineering time and cost all over again. It would have to be a guaranteed winner to be worth producing but right now I am focused on seeing the Pandora succeed. I have such big plans for it once in production. I want to focus on the software side of things and work on these 3D and DSP SDK's so that everyone from total novices to old pros can make some creative software. I think we lose that if the Pandora were just another mini-mini-laptop. It would be all about the main stream apps and not homebrew. BTW, all of these emulator demos are just to show people that everything they are used to on their GP2X will be on Pandora and run full speed so we can get that out of the way and move on to new and better software.

Is there any possibility of making an "extended keyboard" version? Maybe make it a trifle wider(so it would still fit in a pocket when closed) and keep the gaming controls?

Would there be room for a very thin membrane that would swap to the kind of keyboard that is being discussed here? With a trivial case redesign and a membrane change only perhaps this would be feasible (perhaps even able to be accomplished by the end user).

I am wholeheartedly on the side of more keyboard buttons, but I do not want to see the controls leave.

Is the driver for the keyboard going to emulate a full PC keyboard? If so, will there be a configurator to allow you to set your own buttons? For example make FN one of the triggers and Shift the other for quick typing. If the source for the keyboard driver is at least out there and well commented it would make it easy for us to add this functionality. I would recommend that features like this be added to the firmware with a GUI to change the functionality. Perhaps a simple GUI onboard and a much advanced configurator available for download or onboard in advanced settings.

I don't know how the general public views these things, but most people I meet seem to just leave settings, being oblivious to the fact that they are performing ridiculous workarounds when a simple setting is a couple clicks away.

 

[mechanizeddeath]

Thanks for the insights, MWeston.

I know that I've always wanted something like the Pandora, it just hasn't existed. I've had a lot of great portable devices over the years, but they all were lacking in some area. The coming months will be exciting indeed. :lol:

 

[danboid]

Aha!

mweston speaks! Thanks for your reply, interesting stuff as ever.

I for one have absolutely no interest in an eeepc sized Pandora, because as you say you're then competing with much more powerful x86 devices. Inferior battery life of course but you can do stuff like video editing on a x86 that you couldn't on Pand, not to mention run Windows with all its apps and games.

n900 will most likely be another failure. Why? Chances are that it'll be another UMPC piece o' shyte. Nokia- WAKE UP - Clamshell is the ONLY sound design for these things! Dicks!

I know I've been told now just to forget about a Pandora with a better keyboard but I would just like to go out by highlighting that it would be the long-awaited 'Perfect PDA' if it did arrive. There is nothing like that out there still and so there is potentially a big market for someone who finally manages to tick all the requirements for becoming the true successor to the Zaurus. Maybe Pandora will be the nearest we'll ever get?

Despite all this, I'm still going to be buying and Pandora as soon as they're available- regardless of the presenceor lack of 'Linux keys' or having to use fire button substitutes.

 

[chad78]

The N800 series was not a failure, or a POS.

Trying to avoid competition is impossible - and not a reason to not do something. Yes, eventually there will be a N900, or a N850 or whatever - but why would that stop anyone from making their own system.

Aside from that nameless, info-less Clamshell MID, the N-series are the closest to what danboid is talking about. But the Pandora beats the N800 series on a few points - it's more powerful (has game controls) is cheaper (or it was until the N810 hit $299 for a while) and is clamshell (that's debatable whether or not that beats it - but to danboid, apparently, it does).

Everyone keeps saying things that "That's just another mini-mini-notebook" - but show me a mini-mini notebook that fits in your pocket. Other than the Pandora and the no-name clamshell MID, I haven't seen one. Well, the Lifebook, but it's over a grand. The HTC Shift is close, but it's not cheap, either.

I don't think danboid wanted a PandorAAA - he doesn't want the system to be bigger - just the keyboard. It might be awkward, though, considering there's not much room to make them wider - just taller. But at least you could add another couple lines of keys (F1 - F12 on one line, PGUP/PGDN/Ctrl/Alt/Del on another...)

 

[dsleaf67]

I think all these points are valid! Biggest problem is all of this has been hashed to death! Biggest thing I see is its too early for all of this, too many irons in the fire right now sort of speak. Lets just finish one product before worrying too much about another.

I will agree at least on the level that there is nothing like a pocketable laptop out there. Yes, I believe the that what danboid describes has a market . I've thought about, but prefer the compromise of the pandora though. Having a mini-mini laptop might be the eeePC of the UMPC market (a cheap full blown UMPC). The biggest hurdle is who's going to take a chance on it.

I of course am not commiting for them or anyone else, but I believe it will happen. That TI Chip could show up in alot of devices down the road by other teams with dreams.

To quote one of my favorite hockey players when asked about playing in another Olympics, "never say never". The point is give it time. You come across as someone looking for commitment to build it now. Pandora could be the stepping stone you're looking for to get people looking at the possibilities of the device you speak of. The pandora isn't out yet so alot of people with the ability and desire could step to the plate. You could be craigix and company. Because this is how the Pandora was born. Someone (craigix) wanted something that nobody was creating found believers and a little luck with cutting edge TI SoC and here we are.

 

[Somaxman]

Hi! First poster here.

I don't really know, if it really is an option, but have you thought about interchangeable keyboard modules?
I mean, I'm really satisfied with the current design, but sometimes a full-fledged keyboard would come in handy. That way I wouldn't have to dedicate myself to one of the two versions.
And since the andora1: is mainly a gaming device, the full keyboard module could be sold separately.

Maybe it would spoil the rigidity of the case. Maybe not. Maybe there are other problems I haven't thought of.

Please, if you have to tell me I'm an idiot, do it in a flameless way.

 

[chad78]

Please, if you have to tell me I'm an idiot, do it in a flameless way.
Dreadfully sorry to be a bother, my good man, and I hate to be the one to have to tell you this, but it seems that you are an idiot.

Not really - I just wanted to try to say that "in a flameless way".

1. the Pandora is done being designed - it's far too late in the game to do this
2. what would you gain by removing the keyboard, only to stick it back in?
3. The keyboard (as mentioned in this thread) is built onto the motherboard - you cannot remove it - and if you could, it wouldn't save any room.
4. the keyboard (as I had to learn on this forum) will make emulation of older PC-like systems (Commodore 64, Apple ][, Atari 800, etc).

oh - and, btw - welcome to the forum

 

[beware116]

The issue with something like this is the Pandora moves out of GamingMID to full blown MID. It may be nice, and it may do well, but soon (and I mean VERY soon) this is a market that will soon be completely liquidated as computer parts become smaller and cheaper. Things like the Sony Experia X1 and HTC Shift prove this point even now.

Being a GamingMID, the Pandora is guaranteed success for at least a decent amount of time (up until it inspires other companies). Outside of the gaming capabilities, it has nothing over every other MID ever. There are Mobile Internet Devices at a similar price with similar features and power as well as things like HSDPA/3G and/or GPS. Removing the gaming features completely takes away the point of the Pandora. The only difference other than the gaming features is the clamshell design as opposed to tablet/slider designs.

Also, a modular design would require a complete redesign unless it came in the form of a dock (in which case, see my post in the "Ultimate Docking Station" thread).

 

[nubie]

Hi! First poster here.

I don't really know, if it really is an option, but have you thought about interchangeable keyboard modules?
I mean, I'm really satisfied with the current design, but sometimes a full-fledged keyboard would come in handy. That way I wouldn't have to dedicate myself to one of the two versions.
And since the andora1: is mainly a gaming device, the full keyboard module could be sold separately.

Maybe it would spoil the rigidity of the case. Maybe not. Maybe there are other problems I haven't thought of.

Please, if you have to tell me I'm an idiot, do it in a flameless way.

It sounds like a neat idea, I don't think that there is any room to do it in though, the pads are directly on the circuit board, and the joysticks/nubs are soldered to it.

If you could unsolder the nubs and fill that area with keys instead it might be neat, but I don't think it is technically possible to make it an interchangeable or easily reversible setup.

Please, if you have to tell me I'm an idiot, do it in a flameless way.
Dreadfully sorry to be a bother, my good man, and I hate to be the one to have to tell you this, but it seems that you are an idiot.

Not really - I just wanted to try to say that "in a flameless way".

1. the Pandora is done being designed - it's far too late in the game to do this
2. what would you gain by removing the keyboard, only to stick it back in?
3. The keyboard (as mentioned in this thread) is built onto the motherboard - you cannot remove it - and if you could, it wouldn't save any room.
4. the keyboard (as I had to learn on this forum) will make emulation of older PC-like systems (Commodore 64, Apple ][, Atari 800, etc).

oh - and, btw - welcome to the forum

Ouch Chad, you seem in high spirits today

 

[CronoTriggerfan]

Please, if you have to tell me I'm an idiot, do it in a flameless way.
Dreadfully sorry to be a bother, my good man, and I hate to be the one to have to tell you this, but it seems that you are an idiot.

Not really - I just wanted to try to say that "in a flameless way".

1. the Pandora is done being designed - it's far too late in the game to do this
2. what would you gain by removing the keyboard, only to stick it back in?
3. The keyboard (as mentioned in this thread) is built onto the motherboard - you cannot remove it - and if you could, it wouldn't save any room.
4. the keyboard (as I had to learn on this forum) will make emulation of older PC-like systems (Commodore 64, Apple ][, Atari 800, etc).

oh - and, btw - welcome to the forum

Not gonna lie, that was epic.

 

[TJSomething]

Even though it looks like everything is hashed out, I'd like to throw in my two cents.

How I discovered the Pandora:
A few years ago, I bought a Zaurus C3100. I flashed it with pdaXrom (a firmware with X capability). It was great. It was great for reading on, hacking out some code, or even light Internet browsing, but my gripes with it were its lack of computing power and its bad gaming controls.
Earlier this year, I was doing some housekeeping on my C3100 when I accidentally typed "rm -r / tmp/*" While I was looking on the Zaurus boards over at OESF for a solution, I noticed the PocketPenguin board, where they used to discuss making a successor to the Zaurus. I looked to see if they had made any progress since the last time I had checked, about a year prior. Someone had the same thought as me and asked about the progress. Apparently, the project stagnated and one of the people there recommended the Pandora.
I took a look over here, and lo and behold, I saw the Pandora. A device oriented toward games with a similar formfactor and better features than the Zaurus. It fulfilled my problems with the Zaurus, being powerful enough to play a video without conversion and having controls that I could play most games without awkwardness.

On the subject of the keyboard, I could see making the triggers shift and Fn, but that makes me ask, what could I use for Ctrl and Alt? One says I could use the gaming controls, but the gaming controls are all on one side. The side doesn't matter with those triggers, but if I'm thumb typing...
Well, I've just answered my own question. A perfectly good place for Ctrl, Alt, and even a menu key would be right in the center, assuming these high resolution renders are still accurate for button arrangement.

In summary:
I found out about the Pandora because of the Zaurus. I think the Pandora is better than the Zaurus (specifically my C3100) because of the gaming controls and the faster processor. We could put Ctrl and Alt keys in the center, between the analog sticks.

 

[_VWV_]

People who think that the UMPC/MID market will soon leave no room for the P are wrong. All the Atom based mids we've seen so far cost more than 600$ (even the most striped versions!) and have shorter (much shorter) battery live. I'm not naive about the future and I don't want to say the P-keyboard edition will easily outperform any Sony/Nokia/Whatever device on the market. Yet I think that the P-keyboard edition might be profitable for the devs or a least bring back the money invested into its construction.
But you know what..If there is no alternative on the market, I'll be buying the P even with todays striped keyboard. And I think there won't be a competitor on the market for the same price and with the same size/features/battery life - that is why I'm still here.
The UMPC crowd on these forums asking (more or less politely) for a bigger keyboard or some other additional UMPC-features will buy the P anyway. Believe me.

 

[MilanC]

* starts wondering where are keys F1 through F7 *
* imagines mapping them to (Fn+)A,B,X,Y *

 

[Null]

* starts wondering where are keys F1 through F7 *
* imagines mapping them to (Fn+)A,B,X,Y *

I'm going to map them to Fn + number button. e.g. Fn + 1 for F1.