Pandora 2 should be a 5" Linux Tablet with no built in gaming controls, but... - With Hinge & Attach

[overgauss]

No true pandora Scotsman will ever support a unit that isn't a brick with SD slots. In fact they were for modularity before they were against it. To many, the Tactus signals the endtimes even though its raised buttons draw no additional power, the technology's potential with knobs would still mean devices are too tablety and mainstream, and we know all about how knobs hate the mainstream (even those that go all the way to eleven).

Spoiler

Anyone who's struggled with fingers skating over today's touchscreens may be in for a relief - future generations of phones and tablets could offer real, transparent buttons that pop up out of the screen on demand.

Californian start-up Tactus has developed a sheet of transparent buttons that rise up out of a touchscreen and disappear.

The company claims that the sheet only takes up the same amount of room as the layer of transparent glass in current touchscreens.

 

Tactus's technology in action: Future generations of phones could offer real, transparent buttons that pop up out of the screen on demand

 

A Californian start-up has developed a sheet of transparent buttons that rise up out of a touchscreen, and claims that the sheet only takes up the same amount of room as the layer of transparent glass in current touchscreens

The technology could be used in tablets, phones and remote controls - and could even allow for touchscreens that can be played with the same precision that people use musical instruments.

Tactus describes its technology as a 'world first' that aims to address the shortcomings of touchscreen control.

'What if buttons could morph out of the surface of your device?,' says the company.

'Tactus provides a new dimension to touchscreens by enabling real, physical buttons that rise up from the surface on demand, and then recede back into the screen, leaving a perfectly flat, transparent surface when gone.'

 

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Modern touchscreens are built of different ultra-thin layers of material - and Tactus claims that its Tactile Layer is as thin as the 'cover glass' currently used, and would require no change to the screens or sensors underneath.

With the buttons enabled, users can push and type or rest their fingers as they would with any physical button or keyboard.

 When the buttons are disabled, they recede into the screen, becoming invisible and leaving a smooth, seamless flat touch-screen with maximum viewing area.

 

The technology could be used in tablets, phones and remote controls - and could even allow for touchscreens that can be played with the same precision that people use musical instruments

Tactus claims that its technology is a natural 'step beyond' the current vibration-based feedback - known as 'haptics' - used in touchscreens.

It also claims that it allows users to use touchscreens more precisely, knowing by touch where the buttons are.

'This is not a trick of your senses using vibration or stimulation, but rather real physical buttons that rise out of the surface of the screen,' says Tactus.

http://youtu.be/bwbO2JvW6lE

 

[Grench]

Not to put too fine an edge on it but...

Those frankentablet P2 designs are hideous, fragile and a dramatic step backwards from the existing Pandora in ergonomics and usability.

Craig has said that the ICP2 design grew just a bit to allow for the RGB LEDs.  Maybe that new footprint will also allow for the screen, SD slots and other features everyone seems to want.  Or maybe the old Pandora design has legs and can go another motherboard generation.

Either way - the Pandora 2 needs to be a solidly built clamshell device with screen & controls in one unit.  If you want a tablet, they're a cheap and ubiquitous commodity.  The Pandora 2 needs to retain the features that make it fill it's own niche in the market - and those that differentiate it from common tablets and phones.

 

[Mr_Loon]

@ Overgauss : I think that the Tactus might have to wait for Pandora 3. Interesting stuff though. Especially the bits about Knobs & Scotsmen.

Not to put too fine an edge on it but...
 
Those frankentablet P2 designs are hideous, fragile and a dramatic step backwards from the existing Pandora in ergonomics and usability.

Please don't confuse a rough sketch to illustrate a concept with a design. Just wait until I've constructed my wondrous full scale papercraft model before you probably quite rightly call it hideous.

Fragile? How do you know it will be fragile? Issues of sturdiness & solidity are directly addressed in the Base, Hinge & Attachment module.

Ergonomics? How can including a comfortable rounded grip to make extended sessions of use a comfortable experience be considered a step back in terms of ergonomics?

Usability? See multiple usage scenarios below.

 
Craig has said that the ICP2 design grew just a bit to allow for the RGB LEDs.  Maybe that new footprint will also allow for the screen, SD slots and other features everyone seems to want.  Or maybe the old Pandora design has legs and can go another motherboard generation.

? But he also said the external dimensions of the device have not altered IIRC.

 
Either way - the Pandora 2 needs to be a solidly built clamshell device with screen & controls in one unit.  If you want a tablet, they're a cheap and ubiquitous commodity.  The Pandora 2 needs to retain the features that make it fill it's own niche in the market - and those that differentiate it from common tablets and phones.

For me a P2 should be / have :

A Mini Laptop with clamshell design, Hardware Keyboard & Gaming controls

Pocketable (i.e. not much bigger than P1)
Long Battery Life
Modular
No Harder to manufacture / design than a conventional mini Laptop
$500 + Shipping

For me to be happy with a final design for the concept : When all 4 modules (Lid, Base, Controls & Battery) are assembled P2 must look & function like a mini laptop.

There are certain advantages to be gained from the modular approach and from having the PCB in the lid rather than in the base. There are of course some disadvantages, let's start with those :

Disadvantages over traditional mini laptop design

Lid is thicker + heavier (by the thickness, 4mm? + weight 125g? of the PCB)
Power drain / cpu load from USB being always on?
Separate battery in control set

Advantages of modular design over traditional mini laptop design :
 

Multiple usage modes (see below)
Customer can buy / upgrade in sections
Improved RMA experience for customer due to modular nature
Additional retail opportunities for the customer due to modular nature
Screen can be attached in both Landscape & Portrait mode
Cable routing between base & screen is easier
Screen could be used as a second monitor (as per Drammurts Suggestion)

Multiple usage modes :

Mini Laptop
Tablet
Tablet & iCP2 only (with or without iCP2 hinge clamp)
Couch Gaming
Desktop Replacement
In Car / Public Transport (screen attached to tripod mount)
Relaxed Mode (screen attached to tripod mount)

 

[bismuthdrummer]

Yeah I think you've sustained some objectively fair arguments, Mr_Loon. I can't say I prefer your design over the P1 quite yet, but you've got a definite maybe from me FWIW. The devil is in the details and implementation. I think some of us just have high-level reservations as to how many deals we must strike with the devil to obtain the level of modularity you (and others) seek. It's a worthy objective, I think, my only reservation personally is the one just stated.

And of course, I don't know enough about building handhelds other than to give a gut-led thumbs-up or thumbs-down. So, thumbs-sideways for now, until OPT or someone with deep experience gives some feedback here.

 

[Binky]

Gah!

The additional mechanical/electrical joints will always reduce reliability and increase cost. Continuously coming up with ways that it could be strengthened/improved does not change this.

Mechanical connectors are either fragile or clumpy

electrical connectors can get dirty, or worn-out

Suggesting another type of electrical or mechanical connector will not change this. You may have addressed these problems, but they can never be fully solved.

tablets are simple® to produce because of the lack of mechanical and electrical connectors. This advantage vanishes the moment you add docks, clips and bases.

Here are some problems:


problem reason present in MR Loon's design? Present in conservative P2
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
lcd cable fragile too many traces, poor manufacture no no
battery connection battery doesn't fit snugly in space maybe (external battery clip-on system) no
TV out unorthodox connector no no
connection to tablet part exposed contacts (dirt, wear) possibly no
clip to tablet part mechanical connection (wears out/breaks) possibly no



Do you see my point?

 

[Mr_Loon]

Do you see my point?

I do see your point, but it is spurious for these reasons :

Proven, durable technology (pogo pins + allen bolts), i.e. proven to be good for docking 2 discrete electronic systems can be used.

If you are overly, and IMHO needlessly worried about your points above then you could just leave this P2 concept in Mini Laptop mode and never expose the connectors to wear & tear. Edit : Have you ever used a DSLR camera with a tripod? To me it's sounds like you're shouting 'You don't want to use a tripod because it might wear out the connector'. Or 'Having a tripod & camera as separate entities would be a bad idea because there is no possible way to build a reliable connector'. etc.

Edit : Or if your principles were applied to P1 we would have no hinge, it would just be a tablet form factor (but with hardware controls) due to the fact that designing a hinge & routing cables through it is mechanically difficult. Even though the hinge on the P1 is probably the worst I've ever used on any clamshell device (it's not 100% terrible but it's not really fit for purpose IMHO) and the LCD cable routing caused loads of problems I'd still rather have the P1 with the current hinge than no hinge at all.

You gain far more than you lose by having the PCB in the lid.

Have a look at this and of course the P2 concept battery sketch for a rough idea of how the battery system could work, where is the problem?

As for 'Continuously coming up with ways that it could be strengthened/improved does not change this' whatever happened to 'If the case/hinge could be designed compactly, cheaply and robustly, then this would be a good idea.'

________________________________

....

until OPT or someone with deep experience gives some feedback here.

Good man, for keeping an open mind & listening to reasoned debate.

+ 1 for the call for someone with genuine expertise to get involved. There are many things I'd love to ask them concerning design details.

 

[Binky]

You gain far more than you lose by having the PCB in the lid.

This is subjective.

I hardly use the touch-screen on my pandora, and when I do the body doesn't get in the way.

To me, the loses from the detachable tablet design are greater than the benefit I would get out of it.

We agree that there are advantages and disadvantages to your concept.

I keep stressing the loss of qualities I care about

You stress the gain of the features that you want in a P2

As said before, this really needs an expert opinion.

Perhaps my worries about strength and durability are easy to solve with a good case manufacture

Perhaps not.

 

[Drammurt]

Have a look at this and of course the P2 concept battery sketch for a rough idea of how the battery system could work, where is the problem?

Well, this Nyko system actually requires you to fasten the replacementbattery with 5 tiny screws. You don't expect ppl to really screw the battery to the tablet every time they want to use the device as a tablet, do you? The 3DS just rests (loose) on the charger, like i.e. handsets of phones in their charger. You'd better think of a concept similar to laptop batteries with a spring mechanism that locks them.

If you want to further specify your design, be sure to keep it pocketable. Both the base as a separate unit and the base with the tablet attached can't have thumbscrews sticking out making them difficult to stick them in your pants.

 

[Mr_Loon]

Have a look at this and of course the P2 concept battery sketch for a rough idea of how the battery system could work, where is the problem?

Well, this Nyko system actually requires you to fasten the replacementbattery with 5 tiny screws. You don't expect ppl to really screw the battery to the tablet every time they want to use the device as a tablet, do you? The 3DS just rests (loose) on the charger, like i.e. handsets of phones in their charger. You'd better think of a concept similar to laptop batteries with a spring mechanism that locks them.

My question would be : Is it better to have a tablet by having to use 5 tiny screws to attach a battery than no tablet option at all? I'd say yes.

However it would indeed be madness to use that attachment method for a battery that is designed to be movable when there are so many superior and simple methods that could be used to attach one thing to another. Perhaps 2 recessed short allen bolts, perhaps clips, perhaps magnets, perhaps a simple locking mechanism turned by an allen key etc.

If you want to further specify your design, be sure to keep it pocketable. Both the base as a separate unit and the base with the tablet attached can't have thumbscrews sticking out making them difficult to stick them in your pants.

This is still very much the concept phase, the design detail comes later, my goal is to make a rough scale model to help visualise issues like those raised here. Any help or suggestions for the hinge / screen locking / tablet attachment and indeed the modelling process would be appreciated.

 

[overgauss]

I don't know.  The Asus transformer seems to work ok or any number of the other convertible/docking tablets.  My keyboard on my Surface works fine.  There's plenty of solutions to a relatively simple problem.  I don't see what all the hub bub is about other than being obstinate, short sighted and vocally close minded.  Binky even suggested a whole SIDE PANDORA SCREEN to work with the pandora but somehow a dockable tablet and control setup is just tooooooooo bizzare.

Correlated magnets are just one of the many viable solutions that come to mind, just look at how other people have solved the problem before saying it can't be feasibly done.  You guys are just haters talking out of your ass for the most part.

Images/Text deleted.

Please stop the walls of images. Use spoiler tags to hide large copy/pastes, or just link to the website you copy/pasted from.

 

[thatgui]

I don't know.  The Asus transformer seems to work ok or any number of the other convertible/docking tablets.  My keyboard on my Surface works fine.  There's plenty of solutions to a relatively simple problem.  I don't see what all the hub bub

...

to strengthen your point could you please.

• search for a pocket or a bag where the Pandora fits in snuggly with a little extra space left
• try to put any of the devices you mentioned in your post to fit in that bag
• think about the size of things and how this influences weight and mass distribution

@Mr_Loon

Honestly I didn't follow the thread, but how feasible is it that the P2 will actually have a case designer that will come up with design similiar that is cheap to produce and reliable enough ?

Don't get me wrong, the one thing I would like to have most for the P2 would be a tablet mode in one form or the other, but looking at the design decisions that where made for the P1 I doubt there will be enough expertise in for the P2 development to design something like this.

 

[overgauss]

What the pandora could fit into.

Images/Text deleted.

Please stop the walls of images. Use spoiler tags to hide large copy/pastes, or just link to the website you copy/pasted from.

 

[overgauss]

I don't know.  The Asus transformer seems to work ok or any number of the other convertible/docking tablets.  My keyboard on my Surface works fine.  There's plenty of solutions to a relatively simple problem.  I don't see what all the hub bub

...

to strengthen your point could you please.

• search for a pocket or a bag where the Pandora fits in snuggly with a little extra space left
• try to put any of the devices you mentioned in your post to fit in that bag
• think about the size of things and how this influences weight and mass distribution

@Mr_Loon

Honestly I didn't follow the thread, but how feasible is it that the P2 will actually have a case designer that will come up with design similiar that is cheap to produce and reliable enough ?

Don't get me wrong, the one thing I would like to have most for the P2 would be a tablet mode in one form or the other, but looking at the design decisions that where made for the P1 I doubt there will be enough expertise in for the P2 development to design something like this.

I'm not sure where you're going with your bullet points.  It seems you're trying to imply that a dockable pandora must be the same size as a laptop.  I'm sure you can find dockable iphone or cellphone controllers if you were really interested on the topic.  There's lots to choose from.

Images deleted.

Here, I did some looking for you.  Just add qwerty and what have you and you're set.I'm pretty sure if any of you put your mind to it you can make/design what the OP proposes including whatever constraints or specifications you have in mind. You could make it pocketable, qwerty, nubby, game controls with shoulder buttons flipable like the backflip etc.

Images deleted

Please stop the walls of images. Use spoiler tags to hide large copy/pastes, or just link to the website you copy/pasted from.

 

[thatgui]

What the pandora could fit into.

She can also fit into a chevy nova - the point here is the Pandora is a mobile device with pocketablity in mind, so many people don't want to carry it in a bag around (you can't assume that everybody who will want a P2 carries other electronic devices with him, so some kind of bag would be a implicitness).

I don't know.  The Asus transformer seems to work ok or any number of the other convertible/docking tablets.  My keyboard on my Surface works fine.  There's plenty of solutions to a relatively simple problem.  I don't see what all the hub bub

...

to strengthen your point could you please.

 I'm not sure where you're going with your bullet points.  It seems you're trying to imply that a dockable pandora must be the same size as a laptop.  I'm sure you can find dockable iphone or cellphone controllers if you were really interested on the topic.  There's lots to choose from.

I'm pretty sure if any of you put your mind to it you can make/design what the OP proposes including whatever constraints or specifications you have in mind. You could make it pocketable, qwerty, nubby, game controls with shoulder buttons flipable like the backflip etc.

You tried to prove a point with examples that all exceed the form factor of the Pandora -> thus you can't just make a general point like "its easily doable -see other already do it" because other parameters have to be considerd to account for the size.

I also don't know why you brought up the other examples in your second post as (except for the last one) none of them utilized a hinge like mechanism and the last one with problems, if you look at the only possible angle of 180° and weight such a hingetype probably can't handle.

 

[_wb_]

Please stop the walls of images. Use spoiler tags to hide large copy/pastes, or just link to the website you copy/pasted from.

 

[Grench]

Please stop the walls of images. Use spoiler tags to hide large copy/pastes, or just link to the website you copy/pasted from.

i was just contemplating the sheer volume of copyrighted material that just got posted up - wow.

On the plus side, he seems to know an awful lot about man purses.  If I ever decide I want a man purse I know who to ask.

In the meantime, not knowing much about man purses, I won't be buying any device that doesn't fit into the front left pocket of my pants.

 

[overgauss]

I don't know.  The Asus transformer seems to work ok or any number of the other convertible/docking tablets.  My keyboard on my Surface works fine.  There's plenty of solutions to a relatively simple problem.  I don't see what all the hub bub

...

to strengthen your point could you please.

• search for a pocket or a bag where the Pandora fits in snuggly with a little extra space left
• try to put any of the devices you mentioned in your post to fit in that bag
• think about the size of things and how this influences weight and mass distribution

@Mr_Loon

Honestly I didn't follow the thread, but how feasible is it that the P2 will actually have a case designer that will come up with design similiar that is cheap to produce and reliable enough ?

Don't get me wrong, the one thing I would like to have most for the P2 would be a tablet mode in one form or the other, but looking at the design decisions that where made for the P1 I doubt there will be enough expertise in for the P2 development to design something like this.

So when you said to strengthen my post you were just talking out of your ass because what you really meant was something that was pocketable.  Which I addressed.

What the pandora could fit into.

She can also fit into a chevy nova - the point here is the Pandora is a mobile device with pocketablity in mind, so many people don't want to carry it in a bag around (you can't assume that everybody who will want a P2 carries other electronic devices with him, so some kind of bag would be a implicitness).

>>>>> 

I don't know.  The Asus transformer seems to work ok or any number of the other convertible/docking tablets.  My keyboard on my Surface works fine.  There's plenty of solutions to a relatively simple problem.  I don't see what all the hub bub


...

to strengthen your point could you please.

 
I'm not sure where you're going with your bullet points.  It seems you're trying to imply that a dockable pandora must be the same size as a laptop.  I'm sure you can find dockable iphone or cellphone controllers if you were really interested on the topic.  There's lots to choose from.


I'm pretty sure if any of you put your mind to it you can make/design what the OP proposes including whatever constraints or specifications you have in mind. You could make it pocketable, qwerty, nubby, game controls with shoulder buttons flipable like the backflip etc.

You tried to prove a point with examples that all exceed the form factor of the Pandora -> thus you can't just make a general point like "its easily doable -see other already do it" because other parameters have to be considerd to account for the size.


I also don't know why you brought up the other examples in your second post as (except for the last one) none of them utilized a hinge like mechanism and the last one with problems, if you look at the only possible angle of 180° and weight such a hingetype probably can't handle.

Again I addressed all of this in my post. I said

I'm pretty sure if any of you put your mind to it you can make/design what the OP proposes including whatever constraints or specifications you have in mind. You could make it pocketable, qwerty, nubby, game controls with shoulder buttons flipable like the backflip etc.

I can say it's easily doable, because it's easily doable.  Just because you haters can't figure it out and can find every reason under the sun it can't work, there are thinkers out there that can.  Of course my examples don't pertain EXACTLY to the pandora because it is unique and those examples were to illustrate solutions to SIMILAR problems.  Obviously they aren't exact solutions to our particular discussion.

I merely took a quick survey of examples because you all are too lazy to look for yourself.  Your argument is that OPT can make this epic one of a kind device but OH NOES a modular tablet add-on is way beyond their skills. Why you've got mechanical stress, moving parts and economies of scale to consider.  It's therefor impossible to do and a waste of time to consider.

So when you said this

She can also fit into a chevy nova - the point here is the Pandora is a mobile device with pocketablity in mind, so many people don't want to carry it in a bag around (you can't assume that everybody who will want a P2 carries other electronic devices with him, so some kind of bag would be a implicitness).

That was you just being snide because I made no assumptions and merely provided the information that YOU REQUESTED.

to strengthen your point could you please.

• search for a pocket or a bag where the Pandora fits in snuggly with a little extra space left

My examples illustrated that it is easy to attach a control to a device and that

I'm pretty sure if any of you put your mind to it you can make/design what the OP proposes including whatever constraints or specifications you have in mind. You could make it pocketable, qwerty, nubby, game controls with shoulder buttons flipable like the backflip etc.

Why you could even make it hinged if that were your desire.

Before you mental giants freak out I'm not saying that the above image is hinged or anything. Go ahead and stop pinching up the butt cheeks.

 

[overgauss]

Please stop the walls of images. Use spoiler tags to hide large copy/pastes, or just link to the website you copy/pasted from.

i was just contemplating the sheer volume of copyrighted material that just got posted up - wow.

On the plus side, he seems to know an awful lot about man purses.  If I ever decide I want a man purse I know who to ask.

In the meantime, not knowing much about man purses, I won't be buying any device that doesn't fit into the front left pocket of my pants.

I see now why people talk about you in pms like they do me.  This was uncalled for.  Further I call them purses, I don't have sexual identity issues like you do where you feel you must call them man purses.  It's a purse.  Do you think Romans walked around in their sandles and skirts worrying about man purses?  Be a man and call it what it is.  A purse. [edit: Unless of course it's a messenger/laptop bag.  Basically Lrn2Messengerbag!]

Further I didn't say the device shouldn't fit into a pocket, some other person asked what type of purse could carry it and I gave an example. I furthered the example with laptop bags that could fit tablets etc.

Now since you showed a PM of mine in the past, I will return the favor for you.

Linux-TWAT



Advanced Member

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Sent 16 October 2012 - 08:03 PM

Grench is THE troll of OP boards, don't even talk to him.
I think he's a very sick person.

 

Since you don't know much about purses you might look into a civilian lab harness or something by hazard 4.

Edit: but right now I really enjoy the Victor by Chromebags. Hell the seatbelt buckle tensioner doubles as a beer bottle opener!

 

Spoiler

 

 

i was just contemplating the sheer volume of copyrighted material that just got posted up - wow.

Durr.  If the watermarks didn't clue you in than surely the links directly to the source did.

 

[Mr_Loon]

Please stop the walls of images. Use spoiler tags to hide large copy/pastes, or just link to the website you copy/pasted from.

+1

@ Overgaus : If you could edit in some spolier tags or as per your post re Tactus that would be much appreciated.

@ Thatgui & Grench : In terms of overall size there is no intrinsic reason why this concept would have to be much bigger than P1, it could even be a smaller overall size if certain design decisions were taken. However there are certain design suggestions that I have slipped in despite my genuine intentions to keep this about the concept rather than the design.

For example using a 5" screen for the tablet & having full sized SD & USB in the tablet module. An alternative would be to use a 4" screen with micro SD & Mini USB OTG & no speakers (just headphones) in the lid etc. The 5" screen would of course make the finished product larger that using a 4" screen but IMHO having a 5" screen in 4:3 format as per this phone from LG would be my personal preference & would help to answer this question from potential buyers :

Why buy a Pandora 2 when I could just use my smartphone & an ICP2?

Answer : Does your smartphone have a 5" screen? By having a 5" screen tablet mode becomes a lot more user friendly, Video viewing experience is improved, User experience when the device is used as a satnav is improved etc.

It's appreciated that some smartphones do have a 5" screen, but most do not. It's also appreciated that you could argue that why not have a 6" screen? etc. But these are design details that can be considered at a later date. I'm sure we could have a long thread about many of these design details such as screen size, whether to have full size USB & SD in the lid but in conceptual terms having a modular system does not intrinsically add a lot to the overall dimensions of the device.

The same thing could be said about the ergonomic grip proposed to be used with this design, from a personal perspective this would be a desirable design detail, it's fully appreciated that many may prefer pocketability to comfortable usage.

 

[overgauss]

Please stop the walls of images. Use spoiler tags to hide large copy/pastes, or just link to the website you copy/pasted from.

+1

@ Overgaus : If you could edit in some spolier tags or as per your post re Tactus that would be much appreciated.

+2 images were deleted. No appreciation requested nor required.   I no longer have a horse in this race.  Good luck with your endeavors.

Edit:  Gratz to WC for presumably handing out his first warning for spamming images.