Pandora 2 should be a 5" Linux Tablet with no built in gaming controls, but... - With Hinge & Attach

[Mr_Loon]

After careful consideration & playing around with the papercraft 'prototypes' I've decided that a revision of the overall concept is required.

Instead of the control set being provided by an iCP2 the control set should be built into the base unit. Papercraft model to follow.

The benefits this will bring are :

Easier to design a more compact & stylish base unit

Size of keys can be increased

Dual Shoulder buttons (L1 L2, R1 R2) can be used

A real stand out 'fantasy' feature can be added (details to follow on forthcoming papercraft model)

The idea would be that the controls from the base unit could still be connected via USB / bluetooth but a 'direct connection' could also be used via the pogo pins if this brings benefits over connecting with USB. The base unit would of course still need a battery for bluetooth use, my proposal would be to use 2X AAA batteries for this.

The base unit would also function as a USB Hid and could therefore still be used to control 3rd party devices via USB / Bluetooth

Not sure on the practicality but if the iCP2 firmware is open source then perhaps a slightly modified version of this firmware could be used for the Base/Control module. Of course, any improvements / additions to this firmware by the Pandora community would hopefully also be added the the iCP2 firmware.

Pricing goals would be as follows :

Tablet Module + Battery Module : $350

Base/Control Module : $150

Many thanks everyone, for all the feedback so far, the concept phase is more or less complete, in my mind. Time to start thinking about design.

 

[3_bit]

I think you should up both goals by $50. I can't wait for the papercraft. It sounds interesting, but I can't really get what you're describing. Perhaps this could be the P2 thread that makes it.

 

[Binky]

I think you should up both goals by $50. I can't wait for the papercraft. It sounds interesting, but I can't really get what you're describing. Perhaps this could be the P2 thread that makes it.

Adding an extra $100 to the combined price makes it expensive. Really expensive. I say keep them as Mr Loon proposed, and use all the tricks available to the talented hardware designer to push the cost down - not poor quality,  just really clever design.

If that fails, then I suppose a $600 dollar system would be feasible.

If there Are to be two sections, I would still stand by:

5Ah battery in base/controller - should  last for donkey's years when operating as a HID

1Ah battery in tablet.- if you want more than that; get a smartphone

As long as the tablet can be charged from the base, this won't cause major battery life problems.

It avoids problems with hotswappability, lid weight and detachable battery systems

 

[SNESFAN]

@thatgui- it is the main and non-detachable from the controller, like I was saying before my design differs quite a bit for this and others. What snagged me into this topic and posting was the papercraft of the icp2 and tablet and seeing them together in real space. Feel free to use or ignore my design comments/additions.

18650's aren't stupidly common, but I can pick them up at my local Walmart (outdoors camping/flashlight section) Also a re-seller of the pandora could keep the right batteries in stock or just go to amazon if you want more/cheaper/whatever the point was just have more options. I don't *HAVE* to order an extra battery from just the manufacturer.

standard > proprietary

Also due to the size/shape (18.6×65.2mm) of these things... they can't really be confused with nickel or alkaline batteries from the battery isle. (think trying to shove AA batteries in something that takes C's or D's) In the form factor, they really only have li-ion (not li-po) But if you were to make a li-po 18650 the same charger I believe can be used for both, internally and external. The only danger I could see would be someone trying to shove 2x 18350's (half the length of 18650) into each battery well, and that would be pumping out 7.4v instead of 3.7v. If someone did that... then I'd personally give them a genius medal.

I have thought about the difficulties of efficiently charging/discharging them independently  I'm not a electronics engineer but luckily mweston is, and he would know the regulators and what not needed to handle multi independent cell charging I'm sure. From my somewhat limited knowledge, I do know if you try to discharge them at the same time the lesser cell would constantly spend energy trying to even out the charge on both cells... thus killing both overall battery life and the number of charge cycles (same problems as trickle charging) but I'm absolutely certain it's possible to do it or else no device would have multiple batteries unless you needed an large amount of voltage in series. The hardware required to handle it might be a little more expensive. (compared to just running a wire from one battery to the next) but I don't think it's insane.

(added fyi, the nvidia shield uses 3x 18650's and I highly doubt it's pulling down 11.1v all at once and it charges internally)

 

[Mr_Loon]

I think you should up both goals by $50. I can't wait for the papercraft. It sounds interesting, but I can't really get what you're describing. Perhaps this could be the P2 thread that makes it.

Why do you think the price should be increased? I'm certainly no expert in this field but I think I've erred a little on the high side price wise for a device to be brought to market in 2014 or possibly even 2015.


Hope the Papercraft model clears things up a little. Will also do a very slightly modified model for the lid / tablet section to reflect the deep purple colour scheme + battery connection positions


_________________________________________


Base / controls module in glorious papercraft (big file, print at A4)

Spoiler

Front :


Led backlit Keyboard


Gaming Controls


Grey box above number / function keys shows position of hinge + holder


Gaming Buttons : Each button has a grid of 25 LEDs, these can be easily configured to display any pattern available to a 5 by 5 grid.

Back :


Kickstand (left & right) built into the base


Position of connectors for battery module + size guide for 6000 Mah battery

Bottom (left to right) :


SDXC


Power


Full size Tripod Connector


Headphones


SDXC

Left :


Part of L1 shoulder button

Right :


Cover for 2XAAA batteries (to power bluetooth)


Part of R1 shoulder button

Top (left to right):


Rest of L1 button


L2 button


Full size USB


Mini USB to connect as HID to 3rd party devices


Full size USB


R2 button


Rest of R2 button


The strips at the bottom can be cut out, folded & placed inside the box to add a bit of sturdiness.


_________________________________________

Gaming buttons :


The idea is that each button should have a 5 by 5 grid of LEDs built in to it. This can then be made to display different letters / symbols as demanded by the application currently in use. Why use LEDs? They are proven to be reliable, long lasting (still got a 1970's LED digital watch working fine), can be viewed in lighting conditions from bright sunlight to total darkness, can be dimmed if required / desired + for the Retro Chic value. Edit : LEDs have a very low impact on battery life (think how long a tiny watch battery lasts).


I'm pretty sure that many interesting & creative uses could be found for the buttons : Scrolling text (email alerts, weather, news, help, messages of abuse / encouragement etc.) Swirling psychedelic patterns, Blinking in time with on screen action etc.


If this feature can be added for $10 or less then I think it would be a superb Unique Selling Point for P2


When emulating PSX / PSP they could look like this etc. :

 

[monstercameron]

^^ interesting idea but those led arrays would vampire away some power, maybe e-ink would be a better choice. It can have better resolution and lower/zero power consumption[while displaying an image]. Current h/w implementation the samsung alias 2 http://gizmodo.com/5251232/samsung-alias-2-e+ink-flip-phone-review.


following up on advanced and customizable keys why not...

before anyone say impossible here is example 1 sony tablet p


www.amazon.com/Sony-SGPT211US-S-5-5-Inch-Tablet/dp/B007SPUSIE


example 2


www.steelseries.com/products/other/steelseries-free-touchscreen-gaming-controls

 

[Mr_Loon]

^^ interesting idea but those led arrays would vampire away some power

...

The term 'would vampire away some power' is fairly ridiculous hyperbole IMHO.

Consider the fact that you can continuously run a digital watch with a similar display for, at a conservative estimate, 6 months with a 25 mAh watch battery then I can't really see the issue here.

 

[monstercameron]

^^ interesting idea but those led arrays would vampire away some power...

The term 'would vampire away some power' is fairly ridiculous hyperbole IMHO.Consider the fact that you can continuously run a digital watch with a similar display for, at a conservative estimate, 6 months with a 25 mAh watch battery then I can't really see the issue here.

constantly changing and backlighting-(i mean adjustable brightness)could use more energy, besides vampire power isnt a big draw or hyperbole...

 

[Binky]

Displays in the abxy buttons is a gimmick, I think RGB backlighting can fulfil the gimmick-requirements of most customers

Its also a diversion from the real question about wether a detachable tablety thing is a good idea...

@ mostercameron: That dual touchscreen thing is a joke, right?

 

[monstercameron]

Displays in the abxy buttons is a gimmick, I think RGB backlighting can fulfil the gimmick-requirements of most customers

Its also a diversion from the real question about wether a detachable tablety thing is a good idea...

@ mostercameron: That dual touchscreen thing is a joke, right?

a lil bit...

 

[sswam]

The idea is that each button should have a 5 by 5 grid of LEDs built in to it.

I like that idea... while we're dreaming ... but maybe do it with little LCDs ALA 'game and watch' instead of LEDs, it would use less power and perhaps would be simpler...  don't like looking straight into LEDs it's painful for the eyes

optimus mini ...

 

[Mr_Loon]

Displays in the abxy buttons is a gimmick


....

It is 100% not a gimmick. Here's why :

It is a genuinely useful feature for the customer :


Think of the way that emulated systems have a wide variety of ways of labelling the gaming buttons, Nintendo, Sony, Sega etc. all have their own layouts. You're in game, and are told to push button A you then push the button that is labelled A, this is a pleasant experience for the end user compared to having to think 'The A button on a Sega joypad was here, so I'll push the button labelled X'. etc.

The Default layout for the P2 Gaming buttons could be NSEW with the buttons arranged as per the points of the compass, this would be an improvement in usability compared to ABXY IMHO.


You're playing a Pandora homebrew game you can jump & throw a bomb, the gaming buttons now show an up arrow to indicate jump & a bomb shape to represent the attack function.


Of course interesting & creative (and perhaps a little gimmicky  ) uses could also be found for the buttons : Scrolling text (email alerts, weather, news, help, messages of abuse / encouragement etc.) Swirling psychedelic patterns, Blinking in time with on screen action etc.

It would make the P2 stand out from the crowd :


How many other devices have hardware gaming buttons with a built in display? Answer : some, but not many at all.


________________________________________________

I like that idea... while we're dreaming ... but maybe do it with little LCDs ALA 'game and watch' instead of LEDs, it would use less power and perhaps would be simpler...  don't like looking straight into LEDs it's painful for the eyes

optimus mini ...

Why LEDs :

Retro Chic, Low Cost, Low Power Drain, Brightness can be set by user, Visible in all lighting conditions, Long Lasting & Reliable etc. Anything that can do all that is fine by me, although I like the Retro Chic aspect of Leds if there was a better option using a 'modern' solution as per the optimus mini then I'd be perfectly happy with that.

 

[3_bit]

I think you should up both goals by $50. I can't wait for the papercraft. It sounds interesting, but I can't really get what you're describing. Perhaps this could be the P2 thread that makes it.

Why do you think the price should be increased? I'm certainly no expert in this field but I think I've erred a little on the high side price wise for a device to be brought to market in 2014 or possibly even 2015.


Hope the Papercraft model clears things up a little. Will also do a very slightly modified model for the lid / tablet section to reflect the deep purple colour scheme + battery connection positions

The way the value of the USD is going, it might be necessary. I imagine a basic model system of specifications might help for those wanting a better or cheaper machine.

 

[Binky]

LEDs are not visible in all lighting conditions, unless they are very bright, in which case they eat a lot of power

eInk would be better in some ways.

Problem is that transparent button assemblies are fiddly, people don't really look at buttons, and software button relabelling would require extra work from devs

Cool, nevertheless.

 

[Mr_Loon]

Papercraft P2 Concept model in mini laptop mode with battery in lid sitting next to a familiar household object.

Lid Papercraft in Deep Purple (Big File Print at A4)

Spoiler

Battery Module Model next

 

[monstercameron]

Papercraft P2 Concept model in mini laptop mode with battery in lid sitting next to a familiar household object.

Lid Papercraft in Deep Purple (Big File Print at A4)

Spoiler

Spoiler

Battery Module Model next

impressive crafts dude, could yiou do the hinge aswell or is it too much for paper?

 

[xiongxioi]

Papercraft P2 Concept model in mini laptop mode with battery in lid sitting next to a familiar household object.

What have you done? The utilitarian nazipunk pandora has been transformed into this cyberpunk monstrosity!

Why does it have speakers covered with metal mesh? What is that black dot on the top left of the machine? Is that a webcam you call it?

Jokes aside, I would love to see some leds on the front edge of the base. Like wifi or bluetooth indicator, or cardreader leds. It will also give the system a bit more "pimpy" look. 

 

[3_bit]

Papercraft P2 Concept model in mini laptop mode with battery in lid sitting next to a familiar household object.

Lid Papercraft in Deep Purple (Big File Print at A4)

Spoiler

Spoiler

Battery Module Model next

YAY I can have an OP2 without preordering!

I'm not too excited about power button placement. If it's going to be on the outside it will need to be sturdy, the case will need to be reinforced around that area, etc. and I think there will need to be a power lock to disable the button to prevent actual activation/deactivation. If there is an OP2 unofficial design commitee, you should be in charge of concepts. You're just awesome at it.

 

[thatgui]

@thatgui- it is the main and non-detachable from the controller, like I was saying before my design differs quite a bit for this and others. What snagged me into this topic and posting was the papercraft of the icp2 and tablet and seeing them together in real space. Feel free to use or ignore my design comments/additions.

18650's aren't stupidly common, but I can pick them up at my local Walmart (outdoors camping/flashlight section) Also a re-seller of the pandora could keep the right batteries in stock or just go to amazon if you want more/cheaper/whatever the point was just have more options. I don't *HAVE* to order an extra battery from just the manufacturer.

standard > proprietary

Are there other manufacturers that produce them ? At least around here they are very hard to come by (and at least the biggest two electronics to end user sellers don't have that kind of batterys on stock), so it is at least debatable wether they are standard or not.So without high availability I see no reason to favour them for a custom battery that can be accomodated to "design" needs instead of increasing the P2 size unnecessarily - remember that a big portion of the Pandora users aren't very interested in gaming, so they would see no need for permanent "game grippers".

Displays in the abxy buttons is a gimmick

....

It is 100% not a gimmick. Here's why :

...

Wether it is a gimmick or not depends on the point of view - I for myself deem them a gimmick. But it sure would push the price a lot as production will be a lot more complicated and the probability that it would increase the RMA rate due to failures in that particular area.

Big desktop keyboard manufactueres came up with the idea in the past, and as they aren't very common my guess is that they weren't very successfull with it - and we are talking about big manufacturers that did had a lot of expertise in building keyboards already and didn't had to worry about the constraints the come with building a keyboard for a small, mobile device.

That beeing said I wan't to point out that I'm a old nagging lady (by design) so you shouldn't give too much about my concerns - I like your approach and it is interesting how your design "grows".

But I do have some thoughts about your latest design decisions:

Have you brought any real thought into the keyboard layout yet ? I noticed that the keys use the full witdth of the device and wondered about the possibility of accidental keypresses during the usage of the gaming controls.

Using AAA batteries in the base to power the device would be a no go for me. I also don't see the reason for doing so - to keep the whole thing in balance the base already has to be of some weight, why not use a battery with a low height but a big footprint in the "base" ?

 

[Wally]

I'd like the idea if there were still controls but the display was connected via magnets and fine pins (If Apple hasn't patented everything to do with magsafe)