Pandora 2 should be a 5" Linux Tablet with no built in gaming controls, but... - With Hinge & Attach

[thatgui]

.... 

 I'm just too lazy and too undermotivated to get into your post in detail, but:

If your read the thread carefully you will notice two factors in the ops design:

- keep the hinge

- keep the size ( +- a few centimeters)

You just gave (as usual) examples that can be used to prove a general point, while we have a specific set of parameters that have to be followed to add something usefull to the discussion, and pinning an "everything is possible if you try hard enough" on it doesn't do anything good either, or make your point more valid.

The examples for devices that implement a comparable "docking" feature were all way bigger than the Pandora, or didn't even have a hinge like design (what does copy/pasting a lot pictures too prove the point that attaching a controller in any way add to the discussion that is at hand here ?)

It is the same with your "baggage" post: the culprit is the size, one of the strong factors of the Pandora is it size, so why should anyone that is attracted by its size put her in a bag as big as the ones you posted - if the bag is already that big and they plan on / are already carrying it around, they probably decide to buy a netbook (cheaper, better keyboard, better compatibility)

I could add further that the OP won't have the time, resources, money to come up with something (you gave as examples) where big companies invest a lot of time. But I know I'm a "hater". Why btw. ? Because I addressed two concerns ?

Please don't use that silly "hater" phrase. It usually gives the impression that the one who uses that phrase does not have any real/strong point to make or can't come up with any real argument to strenghten his point. And I don't think that you need such a lame excuse.

@ Thatgui & Grench : In terms of overall size there is no intrinsic reason why this concept would have to be much bigger than P1, it

I think there was misunderstanding, I did not address these point in my last post (or do I simply not get where you are getting at with your answer ?):

Honestly I didn't follow the thread, but how feasible is it that the P2 will actually have a case designer that will come up with design similiar that is cheap to produce and reliable enough ?

Don't get me wrong, the one thing I would like to have most for the P2 would be a tablet mode in one form or the other, but looking at the design decisions that where made for the P1 I doubt there will be enough expertise in for the P2 development to design something like this. 

 

[_wb_]

Please stop the walls of images. Use spoiler tags to hide large copy/pastes, or just link to the website you copy/pasted from.

Edit:  Gratz to WC for presumably handing out his first warning for spamming images.

Do you want another warning point for calling me "WC"? (or is that supposed to be a typo?)

Or for the ad hominem attacks towards Grench?

Or for your attention-whoring signature?

Honestly, I'm not even interested in this discussion, I just want to keep the thread somewhat readable and civilized.

 

[Mr_Loon]

I think there was misunderstanding, I did not address these point in my last post (or do I simply not get where you are getting at with your answer ?):

Apologies, the misunderstanding or misreading was mine.

Honestly I didn't follow the thread, but how feasible is it that the P2 will actually have a case designer that will come up with design similiar that is cheap to produce and reliable enough ?

From my perspective, admittedly based on logic rather than expertise, it is in no way difficult to design a case for a tablet IF the tablet does not have to be ultra slim. The case for the tablet section is essentially a rectangular box, with one side of the box being the screen & bezel. Inside the box is the PCB. The height of the box will be determined by the height of the PCB + Thickness of screen + Thickness of the plastic back + gaps in between. The thickness will probably also depend on what sort of connectors are used in the tablet section, i.e. Full size USB vs mini USB OTG etc. See Rev 2 of the Concept below for my current thoughts on what connectors should be used.


The base module is also a rectangular box, with another rectangular box (the size of an iCP2) cut out of it.


It is in no way harder, in fact it's probably easier to design a functional case for this concept than it would be for a standard mini laptop. Is there a specific part of the design / concept that you think would be a real challenge, or is it a more general concern?

 

[Binky]

Here's a suggestion (I'm experimenting with not being an 'old' fogey, if you're wondering ):


Have a matching (mechanicaly, and electrically) set of pogo pins in the base unit


Tablety bit: miniUSB otg, miciroSD, wifi BT, touchscreen, SOC, generic smartphone stuff (but not the phone) 1000Ah battery to run for a couple of hours (reduces weight problems)


Control section - an iCP2 modified to work over USB when available


Base unit - 5000Ah battery, fullSDXC slots, USB hub, DVB/DAB/DMB (or whatever other fun gadgets people want) - somewhere to tuck the hinge when not in use - ergonomic grip


Configurations:


All three parts - main battery charges tablet battery, controls slotted into base, tablet attached to hinge - everything in use


Just tablet - slim, light, rather boring device for light android stuff - not much fun or battery life


Tablet clipped into base - huge battery life, fun/useful hardware available no controls - hinge tucked away


tablet connected to TV (or whatever), controls clipped into base - tablet battery life not a problem since you can plug it in.


Other notes:


The tablet will not have to power down during reconfigurations (thanks to small battery)


If you omit the tablet bit, you will have a wireless game controller with a phenomenal battery life (good for charging other stuff using powered USB hub functionality)


I'm rather worried that this might end up being too bulky, but its probably no worse than the other suggestions 'round here.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

All of the ideas submitted so far are all good, but I haven't seen this one.  So here I go:

What about having a slot in the lid to hide the second full size or less than full size screen so when we play games that support dual screens we just have to pull the second screen vertically out.  Otherwise emulator developers have to bang their heads and waste their good neurons on ways to emulate dual-screen games on a single screen and then when we play those games we won't have the full experience as either we have to play the pandora side-way or etc. This way the pandora 2 (code named "EvilDragon"   ), will be a perfect system.  What do you all think?  Crazy?

 

[xiongxioi]

Tablety bit: miniUSB otg, miciroSD, wifi BT, touchscreen, SOC, generic smartphone stuff (but not the phone) 1000Ah battery to run for a couple of hours (reduces weight problems)


Base unit - 5000Ah battery, fullSDXC slots, USB hub, DVB/DAB/DMB (or whatever other fun gadgets people want) - somewhere to tuck the hinge when not in use - ergonomic grip

That sounds quite reasonable, and I do have 2  concerns. Firstly, with this arrangement, the unit would have like 3 batteries (tablet, base, icp2), wouldn't that make charging all of them a big hassle? 

secondly, P2 is likely to have a 5" full HD screen and a powerful soc that is powerful enough to run many windows 98 programs under Qemu. 

6000 ah is enough for 10 to 12 hours usage, but charging it using a tiny psp charger would take ages! 

Should the OPT do the same thing as Apple has done: giving P2 a much powerful charger? I wouldn't mind for a gigantic ebony monolith made by underground dwarves for my power brick. 

 

[Binky]

a) The iCP2 bit wouldn't have its own battery. This would be replaced by the extra interfacing hardware. You connect it to the comfy grip containing the 5Ah battery

B) The charger we've got is rated for 2A. 6Ah/2A=3h. Is three hours 'ages' ?

 

[thatgui]

It is in no way harder, in fact it's probably easier to design a functional case for this concept than it would be for a standard mini laptop. Is there a specific part of the design / concept that you think would be a real challenge, or is it a more general concern? 

It is more of a general concern as the one flaw of the P1 that seems to be the most "haunting" is the case. Altough the base and the "lid/tablet" in your design will be more simple the mechanical connections and its attachement have to be way more robust than what is existing right now. This would need some experience on the Pandoras dev side, which, I think, simply isn't there (yet).

 

[Mr_Loon]

@ Binky : I like a lot of what you are saying there, but not the bit about a fixed battery in the lid, 2 batteries for the entire system (Lid or Base + Control) is enough IMHO. Though having the option for 3 is also desirable (Lid + Base + Control). See the papercraft model below for my revised feelings as to what should be built into the lid.

....

6000 ah is enough for 10 to 12 hours usage, but charging it using a tiny psp charger would take ages! 

It's not how big it is it's how much power the charger outputs that counts

....

I wouldn't mind for a gigantic ebony monolith made by underground dwarves for my power brick. 

The finished system will be a svelte ebony monolith made by underground dwarves so it makes perfect sense for the power brick to be designed in this fashion.

...

Altough the base and the "lid/tablet" in your design will be more simple the mechanical connections and its attachement have to be way more robust than what is existing right now. This would need some experience on the Pandoras dev side, which, I think, simply isn't there (yet).

I would use pogo pins, they are a proven reliable solution for docking electronic systems.
_______________________________________________

P2 Papercraft : The Lid Section

Features :

Front :

5" 4:3 Screen

Speaker Grilles

Camera

Mic

Back :

3 X Half size tripod connectors (For connection to the holder)

NB : Battery socket & connections not shown yet.

Left Side : 

(from Bottom to top)

Headphones

Mini HDMI Out

Micro SDXC

Mini USB otg (for charging & data)

Top :

(from left to right)

3 Hardware buttons, These are :

Power

Vol + (also Cursor left on text entry)

Vol - (also Cursor right on text entry)

Full Size Camera Tripod connector

3 Hardware buttons, These are user definable, Perhaps 3 standard Android buttons, Perhaps under linux :

Call software keyboard

Rotate Screen

Launch a selected App

Right Side :

Pogo Pins, female, (for portrait attachment mode)

Bottom :

Pogo Pins, female, (Power from Base to Lid, USB3 & Audio from Lid to Base)

Side by Side with a familiar household object 

Size comparison from above

Portrait mode - every mini laptop should have it

Lid Papercraft (Big image, print at A4)

Spoiler

ICP2 Papercraft here.

 

[SNESFAN]

see.... the screen looks misproportionality bigger than the icp2, something I've thought about since the first potential details of the P2 arrived. The numbers never worked out in my head, but seeing them in physical space really points out the glaring truth about it.

even with the engineering prowess of samsung they are only able to squeeze a 5" screen basically bezel-less on a device roughly the same surface area as the current pandora. A homebrew team isn't going to have the same resources, and will probably look similar to that paper-craft model.

then to try and get that same screen size on something smaller??? I just don't think it's going to happen.

My peronsal opinion would be to throw a pair of 18650 batteries into it one (3000mah) each side  of the icp2 use that form around the batteries as "grips" similar to the nvidia shield, just not as bulky. Thin out the icp by removing the current location of the battery and use the side ones as mentioned. Solves the misperportion problem, part of the bulk problem, and the ergonomics problem.

for a size comparison, a 18650 raw battery is roughly the same depth as the base of the pandora (slightly thicker) and roughly the same length (slightly shorter) and dirt cheap (under $10 in single unit purchase) and 6000mah 3.7v is an awful lot of power to be pushing. And having a standard battery that can be replaced like a AA battery would be better than the current offering.

http://www.amazon.com/UltraFire-3000mAh-Rechargeable-Battery-Charger/dp/B004LHFU62

 

[Mr_Loon]

@ ANDROID : What you say is entirely correct, did you read the OP / View the rough sketches? Do you understand the concept of the base unit & removable battery system.

The base & hinge unit will have the same dimensions as the lid unit. The control module (iCP2) will slot into the base unit and connect to the lid via USB (or bluetooth if desired).

Glad you thought 'A homebrew team isn't going to have the same resources, and will probably look similar to that paper-craft model.' I deliberately tried to be conservative with the dimensions, making the lid 1cm thick & having quite a large bezel. My gut feeling is that I've been a little over conservative but I'd want to hear some expert opinion before changing anything.

 

[SNESFAN]

I did read it, I like the design. I would like a completely convertable modular design. I think it's a little impractical, but very neat concept.

I was more or less commenting on the icp2 design combined with a "practical" 5in screen and how it would look like "for real"

my idea (which is dirived from your idea) would be to turn the "detachable ergonomic grips" as non-detachable battery grips

visualized here

bulges=where the 18650's would be

Spoiler

you could thin out the device in the center between the two batteries quite a bit 

The detachable tablet is an awesome idea, I like it a lot, but adding the hardware to make it detachable, and a smaller battery in tablet mode would again add at least some thickness somewhere to the tablet portion if you want it to remain at least somewhat durable. The asus transformer is a pretty thin device, but it's thickest point is the hinge where the 2 devices meet. Not saying it's impossible, just presenting a point of opinion.

just think of how much you could slim down the current pandora if the battery was configured like this instead of flat along the bottom.

EDIT:thinking about it some more, the 5" display almost perfectly aligns with the icp2, that could mean that the grips when looking at it from the side could almost be "dogbone shapped" and reduce some of the overall thickness while closed. The front facing bulges could actually push into the tablet portion where the bezel/speakers are at while closed without resting on the screen. And also create a concave effect on the speakers / grills. (Focused sound?) Also reducing the overall profile when the clamshell is shut.

rather crude drawing done in ms paint

Spoiler

 

[thatgui]

...

Altough the base and the "lid/tablet" in your design will be more simple the mechanical connections and its attachement have to be way more robust than what is existing right now. This would need some experience on the Pandoras dev side, which, I think, simply isn't there (yet).

I would use pogo pins, they are a proven reliable solution for docking electronic systems.

Pogo pins only provide electrical contact, but you still need a contraption to provide mechanical contact between the parts (inlcuding a hinge mechanism)

My peronsal opinion would be to throw a pair of 18650 batteries into it one (3000mah) each side  of the icp2 use that form around the batteries as "grips" similar to the nvidia shield, just not as bulky. Thin out the icp by removing the current location of the battery and use the side ones as mentioned. Solves the misperportion problem, part of the bulk problem, and the ergonomics problem.

Why waste space with a cylindrical form ? Just for the small posibillity that you go somewhere where you can't find a wallsocket (leaving out the possiblity to just buy a spare battery).

 

[SNESFAN]

the wasted space would be taking the place/space of the removable grips in Mr_Loon's design. I'm guessing the grips in that would have been chunks of rubber like the icp1 had. There is glaring difference in size between the top and bottom in the pictures, by eyeballing it, it's reasonable to assume 2x 18650's could fit in that space and still remain the same dimensions as the current pandora when seen from the top and not interfear with the icp2 pcb. The space the icp2 battery occupies now could be used for housing a daughterboard for the SoC & i/o ports. (ie a modular design) 

my target and reasoning for wanting to at least maintain the 4200mah of the current pandora, I don't think many people are fans of decreasing that. The reasons/benefits over the current battery are as follows.

-not a proprietary battery design, and you can get 18650's virtually anywhere online (even some brick and mortar electronics boutiques or hardware stores)

-quite cheap, random google search I listed shown 2 ultrafire (I use these for my e-cigarettes) for $6.25/ea including a external charger.

-18650's are the closest to 2100mah 3.7v (x2 for 4200mah) li-ion you are going to find in a standard size. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes

-high end mah models 3400mah (x2 = 6800mah) in the same form factor as a low end 2200mah (2x = 4400mah).

-close to the same thickness/length as the current pandora. (icp2 shrank in size so there won't be much added "bulk" over the original pandora.

-The design give's it 2 pronounced humps on the front for resting in the hands and 2 humps in the back for gripping your fingers around, (first spoiler in above post)

-allows you to carry many spare batteries if desired, charge externally, or buy new ones in a pinch (they're flashlight batteries)

-about as comfortable in your hand as a roll of quarters (not sure how that translates to different country denominations)

The increased mah wasn't the focus, space utilization and ergonomics was, the potential added battery life is just an added bonus.

i really don't think my idea is a bad one.

 

[Mr_Loon]

Pogo pins only provide electrical contact, but you still need a contraption to provide mechanical contact between the parts (inlcuding a hinge mechanism)

This is true, but it is equally true for a Standard mini laptop design, I would argue that it may well be easier to route the data / power with this design than with a standard mini laptop design. Also making a U shaped metal holder attached to the hinge with 4 holes in the back of the holder for attachment of the lid in landscape & portrait mode would not be a huge problem.

The detachable tablet is an awesome idea, I like it a lot, but adding the hardware to make it detachable, and a smaller battery in tablet mode would again add at least some thickness somewhere to the tablet portion if you want it to remain at least somewhat durable. The asus transformer is a pretty thin device, but it's thickest point is the hinge where the 2 devices meet. Not saying it's impossible, just presenting a point of opinion.

There would be no smaller battery in the tablet section, the battery module is removable and can be attached to either (or both if you have 2 batteries) the base unit or the tablet unit. A hinge + cable routing through the hinge is required anyway for a standard mini laptop. The additional part is the U shaped holder which would not add a lot to the overall size / complexity of the hinge section.


RE the battery setup : There is of course the obvious issue that using this method you could not hot swap the battery when the tablet was switched on, however, I ask the question : Would you rather have the option of a mini tablet mode with this minor inconvenience or no option at all? If some true genius could work out a way to power the tablet section with the iCP2 battery whilst the main battery was swapped over then so much the better, but I'm not sure this would even be possible.


Edit : Added Rev 3 of the concept sketch to reflect design details on Tablet Papercraft model

 

[Binky]

Again (since people were getting confused):

My suggestion was that the iCP2 part should have extra interfacing hardware instead of a battery.

You clip it into an ergonomic base section full of battery, which can also accept the tablety part.

small battery in tablet

huge battery in comfy grip

total: Two

 

[SNESFAN]

think there's several designs being thrown around, at least 3 different mental images of what should or shouldn't be included and whatnot

I know what I got in my head differs greatly from what you guys have in yours

 

[3_bit]

rather crude drawing done in ms paint

Spoiler

oversized speakers, but I get where you're going other than that. Would the batteries be hot-swappable?

 

[SNESFAN]

yea, you could either make a battery door like a tv remote control, or something fancy and make the bottom half a removable solid piece like a sony google tv controller, or twist off ends like a flashlight... i guess whatever would be easier/more durable.

And since they would be running in parallel (3.7v each) you could remove/add a single battery without powering down the system.

 

[thatgui]

i really don't think my idea is a bad one.

apology first: didn't get that your idea was an additional power supply rather than the main.But I still doubt that they are a feasible way to go:

• not available everywhere (at least not around here)
• due to the similiar shape, non rechargeable or non LiPo batteries could be inserted with fatal effects (unless charging them inside the device isn't part of your idea)
• charging them with the rest of 1/2 (?) batteries that are also possibly inside the device would be a nightmare (unless charging them inside the device isn't part of your idea)

 

This is true, but it is equally true for a Standard mini laptop design, I would argue that it may well be easier to route the data / power with this design than with a standard mini laptop design. Also making a U shaped metal holder attached to the hinge with 4 holes in the back of the holder for attachment of the lid in landscape & portrait mode would not be a huge problem.

not quite as contact plugs have to be far more sturdy as they have to endure more force than a normal hinge design. Also the possibilty of just "wearing out" is a lot higher. Probably still better as the current one, but I guess that we all agree that the hinge design of the Pandora should not be reused in the P2.