Pandora 2 should be a 5" Linux Tablet with no built in gaming controls, but... - With Hinge & Attach

[Mr_Loon]

... but making the clip-on, clip-off, sturdy, compact, thin, light, strong, latching-in-the-right-places hinge assembly is very difficult!

Why ?


Imagine a barrel hinge that could be locked into position with a thumbscrew, the metal bit coming out of one section would be the end of a long bolt. There would be one of these at either side of the hinge section. All of this is very simple in engineering terms.

The rest of the base unit would in essence be a rectangular box with curved ends for an ergonomic grip. There would be a smaller rectangular recess in this box where you would slot in an ICP2.

One of the big pluses about this concept is that it is far simpler to build than a mini laptop. Imagine if P1 had been built using this concept :

No LCD cable problems due to complex routing of LCD cable through hinge.

If the nubs break then just send back the ICP2 section for repair / replacement, plug in a USB Keyboard / joystick whilst waiting.

Less intricate case design may have lead to less cracking.

A sturdy hinge that could be locked at a position that suits the user.

Ergonomic case with no hand cramping after extended use.

Pie in the sky, I know, but a rather tasty one IMHO. 

 

[Binky]

NOT simple. The clip-on system would be harder than building a fixed hinge, and the iCP2 has already been designed, much of that can be copied.

Constant use of radio =

Modern screen connectors use far fewer lines, so this is less of a problem

Make nubs better --> convenience when they fail is not a major consideration.

Case design is still intricate. Maybe less so, but weird forces at the join might cause problems

Sturdyness of hinge is not positively correlated with having a phablet clip-on systems

ditto ergonomic case

Pie in the sky

I'll get the AA guns

 

[klapse]

I think Mr_Loon's idea is certainly interesting and a creative alternative idea. Kudos.

 

[Mr_Loon]

@ Binky : I don't think you are understanding my proposal of how the Tablet could be attached to the base unit. I'll make another sketch to detail this & the removable battery in the next day or two. I'll also attempt to do a balanced list of Pros & Cons compared to the standard mini Laptop model.

... and the iCP2 has already been designed, much of that can be copied.

What do you mean by this?
 

Constant use of radio =

Or connect the ICP2 via USB, ICP2 uses USB HID interface, Askarus reckons that would use more power, can't quite get my head round that, but don't forget the ICP2 has a decent battery.
 

... weird forces at the join might cause problems
Sturdyness of hinge is not positively correlated with having a phablet clip-on systems
ditto ergonomic case

Not really sure what you mean by that.

@ klapse : Thankyou, I've given it a lot of thought.

My question to you, and anyone else, is would you buy it if :

The Tablet was $350 and had the specs as per the original post.
The Base Unit was $75.
The ICP2 was $75.
When all connected together the device would look like & function like it was designed to be a mini laptop P1 style.

Bear in mind a 1Ghz P1 retails for $719

 

[sswam]

1) P2 Hardware manufacture should be in the hands of Open Pandora, not at the mercy of a 3rd party phone manufacturer. What if the phone company go bust, massivley increase prices, etc.


2) By having control of the manufacturing process the hardware can be designed to exactly meet the needs of the system. e.g. position of ports, base connection mechanism etc.


3) Where does the profit of Open Pandora come from? From my model it comes from sales of the tablet, the ICP2 & the base unit? From your model it just comes from the sale of base units.


4) I want to keep the 'indie hardware dream' alive.

Ok then, if OPT can produce a tablet with internal ports where I can plug in a bare usb 3G/4G modem and GPS, and preferably other IO devices; and we can obtain adequate phone call software for it; and carriers will allow us to use it as a phone; and OPT can develop this tablet and bring it to market as quickly as a large phone company so that we can keep up; then I'm very happy for OPT to build their own tablet phone.  We could perhaps do it better than the phone companies, so it's more modular, and we can plug various different USB kit into it internally.


I still think it makes more sense to use a phone that's already built.  I would much prefer if my next Pandora can make phone calls and use gps, and preferably detach the tablet and controller parts.  I agree with your points 2, 3, 4; I don't think 1 is a major concern, we could switch to a similar phone.

would you buy it

I'll happily buy anything this company makes, I really like Open Pandora! and your design is very good. I'd suggest they custom up the iCP2 part a bit, make it bigger and look nice so it fits nicely with the top part. Clamshell is good, for me.

 

[Loonie]

No. No, no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.

Full-on pocket computer with gaming controls or jee-tee-eff-oh.

 

[archlord666]

I think some people don't really like the word..........tablet. hey people! we propose you a full computer (linux, first, android....windows (i am waiting your snipers lol))but in 2 parts what wrong with you?  :rolleyes:

Furthermore, ICP3 may bring more features to the...tablet h34r:  part. 

 

[Mr_Loon]

No. No, no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.


Full-on pocket computer with gaming controls or jee-tee-eff-oh.

You'll be surprised to hear I completely agree. Did you read the original post / look at the sketch or just read the thread title? No offence if you just read the title, it was meant to provoke the following reactions :


1) Right thinking people say 'WTF is this idiot on about?'.


2) After a careful read of the wall of text you'd start to think 'hang on a minute this might just work'.


3) After carefully considering the usage scenarios you'd be saying 'shut up & take my money!'.


It seems to have been fairly good at provoking reaction 1, not so much for 2 & 3 so far. 

Hope to change that with further elaboration of how it might just work.


________________________________________


Talking of that, the battery system.


People rightly pointed out the inherent top heavy nature of the concept. Here is my attempt at a solution :

As you can see it is rather like this system from Nyko for the 3DS.

The battery can be either attached to the tablet or the base system according to the usage scenario required. You can also attach a battery to both the tablet & the base system if you like the idea of 20 hours on battery rather that the measly 10 that the Pandora offers. 

The actual battery is enclosed in a plastic case, the case has rounded edges for ergonomic purposes. It should make holding the tablet section a lot more comfortable than holding a galaxy note for example.

 

[monstercameron]

even with these sketches and descriptions, I cant seem to visualize the hinge/connector

would it be something like this?(but with thumb screws?)

 

[Mr_Loon]

even with these sketches and descriptions, I cant seem to visualize the hinge/connector


would it be something like this?(but with thumb screws?)

Look at the Pandora 2 Rev 1 sketch on the OP.


The tablet has a small round 'tunnel' running through it on either side (as shown by the grey lines). The metal rods, go through the 'tunnel' and hold it in place by screwing into the hinge, this is a barrel hinge which can be fixed into the desired position by tightening a thumbscrew at one end of the hinge. I'll do a sketch, but not today.

Edit : The metal rods that pass through the tablet and screw into the hinge look a bit like this

 

[Mr_Loon]

... making the clip-on, clip-off, sturdy, compact, thin, light, strong, latching-in-the-right-places hinge assembly is very difficult!

The sketch below shows one way you could do it.

The goals were :

To be sturdy

Allow the hinge to be lockable

Be simple to engineer / manufacture

Patent Free

Tried & Tested methods

The thumbscrew in the hinge screws into the fixed hinge section but pushes the washer against the movable section, thus locking the screen in place.

 

[monstercameron]

... making the clip-on, clip-off, sturdy, compact, thin, light, strong, latching-in-the-right-places hinge assembly is very difficult!

The sketch below shows one way you could do it.The goals were :To be sturdyAllow the hinge to be lockableBe simple to engineer / manufacturePatent FreeTried & Tested methods

The thumbscrew in the hinge screws into the fixed hinge section but pushes the washer against the movable section, thus locking the screen in place.

ok, i understand the hinge a little more now, but it seems like a lot of setup with those screw rod thingys. The concept is similar to my P2C concept. I dont see why making a tablet to attach with an icontrolpad-beefed up- would be a bad idea.

 

[Mr_Loon]

...


ok, i understand the hinge a little more now

Is there any bit you do not understand?


I didn't want to add a load of design details at this stage, I'm trying to 'sell' the concept not an exact design at this stage. Just to contradict that here are a couple of design details :

On one side of the hinge you'd have a thumb / allen screw to lock the hinge in place and on the other would be a thumb / allen screw with a felt washer between the screw and the moveable hinge section, this could be tightened so the screen did not flop about.

The stylus would have a 90 degree bend at one end, this would be an allen key etc. etc.

but it seems like a lot of setup with those screw rod thingys.

Compared to your P2C concept the extra work would be sliding a bolt through a hole.


As stated before the design is not super important at this stage, If anyone can come up with a better specific design then I'd love to hear it. Please don't just say 'do it like an asus transformer' or something like that.

The concept is similar to my P2C concept. I dont see why making a tablet to attach with an icontrolpad-beefed up- would be a bad idea.

The ICP2 will hopefully be an existing product when P2 comes to market, using this as the control module in a preferably unaltered state (other than maybe a change of face plate for aesthetic reasons) helps keep things simple & lowers development & production costs.


The base module has huge potential IMHO, I'll elaborate further on that in a future post. But as a little taster how about this idea :


An option would be to sell the hinge section (attached to metal band) the connector rods & data/audio connectors & cabling (that come in the standard base) to enthusiasts who could then use a 3D printer to make the plastic case for the base to their own specification, this might be : small as possible, comfortable as possible, really large to fit in additional USB goodies etc.

EDIT : Oi Nokia, stop nicking my ideas.

 

[Binky]

You say that your tablet (not meant in a negative way) design would be less complicated.

I don't see how it would be.

LCD cables have far fewer connections in them, so should be less of a problem.

Every new thing you suggest  (battery moving, bolt-on tablet) is complicated, and case design is always hard.

Even if what you suggest is the best possible way of clamping on a tablet, it will be difficult to build well.

 

[bismuthdrummer]

I don't know how to design it, but the only way I'd begin to consider this is without the extra parts. Having screws introduces another point of failure: they might get lost, forgotten somewhere, bent, threads or thread sockets worn, etc. The consolidated design of a clamshell is convenient, and while I appreciate the manyfold possibilities brought forth by breaking it apart, I think we really risk throwing away the usability.

Also, I don't want to force the design into stuffing a mobo + battery into the display region. The classic laptop design gives us more room for plugins and ports, and it should cost a fortune less to develop the pcb and case as a result. The Pandora costs on the brink of too much as it is... THAT's why the concept of a "tablet" (not just the word, the device design) has such negative ramifications here.

 

[Mr_Loon]

You say that your tablet (not meant in a negative way) design would be less complicated.


I don't see how it would be.

A tablet is a rectangular box with a touch screen interface, it is not difficult to design a rectangular box with a few struts for the motherboard and a few holes at the side for connectors.


If some one could explain why in general terms why making a tablet (that does not have to be super slim) is somehow harder than making a mini laptop with built in gaming controls and keyboard then I'd be most grateful.


I can completely understand that designing a super slim phone / tablet would be a real challenge. But if people would want Full size USB & SHXC then you are dealing with a certain level of thickness anyway....

Every new thing you suggest  (battery moving, bolt-on tablet) is complicated, and case design is always hard.


Even if what you suggest is the best possible way of clamping on a tablet, it will be difficult to build well.

The battery movement is not complicated, there are myriad ways to connect one thing to another so it can be firm in place & removed when required (clips, screws, locks, magnets, etc.) the concept of plugs & sockets is well known and not overly complicated imho.


Which part of the case design do you think is hard? Do you mean the tablet or the base unit?


As for the hinge


I do not for one moment suggest that this is the best way to connect the tablet to the base unit, in fact I thought of a superior method whilst waiting 2 hours for a train this afternoon... (it allows connection of the screen in Landscape & Portrait modes and uses much smaller 'bolts'). This is all about the concept, the design proposed shows how the concept could be achieved, nothing more. There is no point even really starting to design something in detail until the concept is fully formulated IMHO.


The base unit / hinge concept proposed would be incredibly easy to build well if you were willing to pay for precision engineered parts (hinge, thumbscrews & bolts) it may not be cheap but so be it. IMHO it would be essential for the hinge & base to have a top quality feel.

I don't know how to design it, but the only way I'd begin to consider this is without the extra parts. Having screws introduces another point of failure: they might get lost, forgotten somewhere, bent, threads or thread sockets worn, etc. The consolidated design of a clamshell is convenient, and while I appreciate the manyfold possibilities brought forth by breaking it apart, I think we really risk throwing away the usability.

As above, don't fixate on the design detail, think of the concept. The design / manufacturing issues (bent + threads/sockets worn) you raise are all valid but if you use good materials then these can be overcome. Think of an expensive DSLR camera and the way that is screwed into a tripod. The option would also be available to leave the system in clamshell mode if that's what you want and simply unclip the control set IF required.

Also, I don't want to force the design into stuffing a mobo + battery into the display region. The classic laptop design gives us more room for plugins and ports, and it should cost a fortune less to develop the pcb and case as a result. The Pandora costs on the brink of too much as it is... THAT's why the concept of a "tablet" (not just the word, the device design) has such negative ramifications here.

Did you see the post detailing a proposed solution to the battery problem?

A downside of the concept is that the screen and the PCB are in the lid of the mini laptop (or tablet if you prefer) this means the lid will be a little thicker. I think that increase in lid thickness is a price well worth paying especially if it does not greatly increase the overall thickness of the device (The PCB has got to go somewhere).

A specific question to those with a lot more knowledge than me :

How thick would a box have to be if it were to include the current Pandora LCD as one face of the box with a circuit board as thick as the current Pandora PCB inside it and for it to function as a tablet with an external power supply? Would this be just about thick enough to include full size USB & SDXC? That's what my gut feel says.

Personally I'd rather have the lid / tablet section a bit chunky with full size ports, though I wouldn't want it too heavy, hence the modular nature of the battery.

 

[bismuthdrummer]

 As above, don't fixate on the design detail, think of the concept. The design / manufacturing issues (bent + threads/sockets worn) you raise are all valid but if you use good materials then these can be overcome. Think of an expensive DSLR camera and the way that is screwed into a tripod. The option would also be available to leave the system in clamshell mode if that's what you want and simply unclip the control set IF required.

Ah ok fair enough, hadn't thought about the tripod analogy... still though, I don't really take a tripod everywhere I take my camera. My response would go from no to a big maybe if I only had two pieces to worry about, and all the parts necessary for attaching them together were on the bottom half or whatever.

Did you see the post detailing a proposed solution to the battery problem?

I suppose that a heavy enough battery moved to the bottom would counterbalance the weight of the top. And the thickness specifically I'm not truly concerned about, but we have much more space in the bottom than the top because that is where your hands go when the unit is fully together. So my argument isn't against making the lid thicker so much as granting ourselves more freedom to add ports and such.

Also, expense is a big deal. I'd rather have the P1 better and cheaper than a whole new P2 for as much or more... it would be nice if we had any ballpark costs on these designs. If anyone with knowledge wants to speculate, I'm all ears.

 

[Mr_Loon]

...

still though, I don't really take a tripod everywhere I take my camera. My response would go from no to a big maybe if I only had two pieces to worry about, and all the parts necessary for attaching them together were on the bottom half or whatever.

And with this concept you would not have to take the base unit / control set everywhere you take your P2, perhaps you just want to listen to music / watch a video, use it for TV out / desktop replacement with other controllers etc.

Rev 1 (below) of the hinge / attachment system would hopefully prove a little more attractive than the oversized allen bolts method suggested previously

I suppose that a heavy enough battery moved to the bottom would counterbalance the weight of the top. And the thickness specifically I'm not truly concerned about, but we have much more space in the bottom than the top because that is where your hands go when the unit is fully together. So my argument isn't against making the lid thicker so much as granting ourselves more freedom to add ports and such.

I completely agree this should be a major design consideration, hence the ergonomic grips with this P2 concept, these only add to the overall size of the unit but are worth it IMHO due to allowing the P2 to be ergonomic to use as a handheld during extended sessions of usage. If customers valued pocketability over ergonomics then of course they would not have to be included in the final design.

Also, expense is a big deal. I'd rather have the P1 better and cheaper than a whole new P2 for as much or more... it would be nice if we had any ballpark costs on these designs. If anyone with knowledge wants to speculate, I'm all ears.

Agreed, I reckon (based on gut feel, looking what things cost now etc.) that all 4 modules (Lid, Base, Controls, Battery) could be retailed at $500 + Delivery.

This would break down as follows :

Lid & Battery $350

Base unit $75

Controls (ICP2) $75

By following this design concept customers would only have to buy the Lid & battery (and use it with an existing control set) to get the Pandora software experience, the base & ICP2 could be purchased at a later date for the full mini laptop hardware experience.

As for someone with real knowledge speculating on costings then I'd hugely appreciate that too.

_________________________________________

Battery system sketch with improved clarity

_________________________________________

Hinge & Attachment sketch Rev 1, this gets rid of the need for extended allen bolts and allows the connection of the screen in portrait mode.

Personal thanks to Binky for this suggestion : 'Why not attach the tablety bit onto the iCP bit with the camera tripod mounting?'

A slight refinement of that idea is certainly a far superior attachment method than the initial design suggestion.

 

[Binky]

Would you run wires through the hinge:

If so, is it worth the complications in the mounting system?

If not, is it worth running BT radios all the time (note this would require two batteries)?

Can the extra casing materials/mechanical connectors be made thin enough? (this might require an expert opinion)

If so, would it be strong enough?]

If not is the reduced pocketability worth it?

As to why this would be more complicated than using the same concept as the P1:

Firstly, there are more parts involved (more casing, and a second PCB) making these comfortably thin is difficult

Secondly this design requires another two (or three) mechanical connectors. These must be strong enough to take many mate-unmate cycles whilst being compact and unlikely to catch/become loose in the user's pocket

There may be more points here, and they can probably be overcome - the problem is not the tablet part, its the whole clipping everything together setup that (may) be problematic.

Again, I'm sure it can be done, but the additional mechanical complexity makes it harder.

The primary problem with the wires through the pandora's hinge will solve itself since new SOCs/Screens use far fewer lines for digital video.

Routing a cable though a simple hinge is much easier than building loads of mechanical clips and routing (somewhat fewer) cables through them.

Showing me another design for a mechanical clip will not discredit this point.

Herse one of my ideas from ages ago:

http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php/topic/7524-pandora-hinges-episode-270deg-of-rotation/

Admittedly the render is horrible (please don't read too much into it), but it does have the merits of being unique and solving the touchscreen-access problem (while only having one, permanent hinge)

 

[Mr_Loon]

@ Binky, how does your hinge work in terms of lock / latching?
 
As for cabling / connecting :
 
To get the USB data from the control unit to the tablet unit, the audio data from the tablet to the base unit & the power from the battery on the base to the tablet, then I'd suggest using pogo pins, the male pins would be in the holder section, the corresponding female connector would be in the tablet unit.
 
The wires would probably run through the hinge as per a conventional mini laptop design.
 
Pogo pins are proven technology that allow you to easily make custom connectors.