Openpandora Ltd (UK) Struck off email


Here we go again...

@hedwards:

Given you have no idea whether Craig has a mental illness, let alone what illness that might be, you're in no better position to comment on Craig's mental condition or capabilities than Stuart is. And he had the tact and intelligence not to. It doesn't matter if you pass it off as an opinion as you're in no position to have any kind of opinion. And as for suggesting medication? Which one? And how much? Should he take it with food? What is it about the internet that makes everyone an expert...

@Moxie:

No one is qualified to diagnose a mental condition based on crap they read on a forum. Is anyone here a mental health professional? And has anyone sat down with Craig and evaluated his mental state? No. So the theory holds about as much weight as Craig's promises. It's like some people here desperately want to believe Craig is actually a good guy. 

You think people should consider a soft approach with Craig because he may be ill? Craig has demonstrated quite clearly he will not take any responsibility for what he's done and would rather blame others so what exactly do you suggest? 

Mental illness or not, I don't see how letting Craig continually get away with this behavior is in any way good for anyone. If he continues down this path he's going to find himself in some serious trouble. A wake up call might just do him some good. 

And let's not forget, Craig's behavior is also consistent with being an arrogant, dishonest prick who takes no responsibility for his screwups or the repercussions for others. 
 
hedwards said:
My memory is a bit hazy, but when was that video where he fell off the roof of the house? I thought that happened before a lot of the members really trying to get him. From what I've seen of his behavior, it sounds very much like he ought to be on mood stabilizers and getting some medical attention.
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That was long before any serious issues happened, and that video was a joke.

He never fell off the roof - he tried to be funny and pretended that has happened.

You can even clearly see in the video that it's edited.
 
<-- BPD and running on mood stabilizer.

Moxie said:
I've seen people speculating about cocaine addiction.
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That explains a lot. And he lives near Scot(ch)land so he might also have some serious drinking habit. And probably he's left-handed. Has anybody checked his zodiac sign?
For the accounting stuff. If these ~200k$ debt are from the Kickstarter project, there must also be some 200k$ Cash at hand, increase in inventory, etc. I cannot simply disappear. Some company must have booked the money. Too bad the ICP annual returns aren't current. I checked the Kickstarter project, the creator is "Product 3 LLC, Winooski, VT". So who or what is this company? A mailbox company for ICP/OpenPandora?

Edit: Funny, landed [here](http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/13099-question-6-company-information-for-the-icp2-team/]http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/13099-question-6-company-information-for-the-icp2-team/) after googling.

Netherless, i think an audit is necessary even if we won't ever see the result.
 
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This mental health discussion really isn't relevant. The man may or may not have mental health issues, as might anyone. We don't know, we likely won't know, it's complete speculation. One does not need mental illness to be either 1) manipulative or 2) incompetent and people can be either one or both quite well without even a hint. And it doesn't matter here. It's a distraction. What Craig's company did and his actions as director of his company are what matters and, more importantly, where that leaves creditors and us now.


Edit: Eazrael summed it all up better with the left-handed speculation.
 
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Whatever his condition, there is one thing that really puzzles me. He still has an active account on youtube with all his videos present and comments enabled... 

If I was a fraud I would erase as much bad publicity as possible.
 
b_o_b said:
Whatever his condition, there is one thing that really puzzles me. He still has an active account on youtube with all his videos present and comments enabled... 

If I was a fraud I would erase as much bad publicity as possible.
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He did take down the "how to do a successful Kickstarter campaign" video.
 
hedwards said:
It's not ironic, there's always sell outs. I've known plenty of people with bipolar and it's a very different beast from major depression or anxiety. No offense to Stuart, but it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that having one diagnosable mental illness qualifies him to state what somebody with a completely different mental illness can and can't do. As I said previously, I'm not in a position to diagnose Craig, but his behavior patterns would be consistent with what I've seen in people with bipolar.
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I wouldn't dream of professing to know what someone can and can't do with x or y condition and that's not what I meant to do so sorry if it came over like that. All I am saying is that It's not fair to make people feel guilty should they choose to take action after being left out of pocket, based on the possibility that the company director that owes them goods or money might be ill.

I was trying to say, in my own long winded way, that I am very sympathetic to anyone suffering from a mental health issue, but business must be kept separate.
 
@Stuart It was very clear what you were saying. Any other interpretation was just self-serving. You have nothing to apologize for.
 
ramboky said:
You think people should consider a soft approach with Craig because he may be ill?
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I am quite certain that I haven't written anything remotely like that anywhere, so no, most certainly not.
 
hedwards said:
Craig owes both me and ED some money for the upgrade I had to do to ED's shop in order to get my unit. Consequently if I were to file suit against Craig and win, and if ED were to do the same, Craig would be on the hook for more money than he owes.
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I can understand this argument in moral terms. But IMHO you have not got a leg to stand on in legal terms, your decision to upgrade via ED and his decision to allow you to do so have nothing whatsoever to do with Craig (in legal terms) as OP Ltd & OP GmbH are totally separate legal entities.

All that Craig owes you is either a refund of your payment to OP Ltd or the goods you ordered and payed for.
 
Certainly when I did my cross upgrade with ED it worked out as a very similar amount of money to the cost of a new unit from ED less the amount I'd be owed by Craig if I went for a refund.  As I understood it at the time, going that route effectively cancelled my order with Craig (for my Pandora, if not my TV-out cable, but that's a different issue) even if no money actually came from Craig to ED.  At the time I wanted out of Craig's queue, but I thought at the time Craig might actually be in financial trouble not of his own making and didn't want to pile more on his plate, but eh, we all make mistakes.
 
One of the stipulations of the cross upgrade is that you were doing so in lieu of a Pandora from Craig. It's laid out pretty clearly in the email that the extra payment is an upgrade against your original order, and that by fulfilling the upgrade your original order is implicitly fulfilled as well. If you try to claim that Craig still owes you, even after paying the upgrade, it would be trivial to prove what you agreed to and that he doesn't owe you anything. All you would be doing is adding unnecessary clutter to a case that is already overwhelmed. There are enough legitimate people still waiting on their obligated Pandora that it will definitely not be struck off, there will be an investigation, I am as certain as can be on that. Adding cross upgrades and other trivial matters to the investigation would only make it difficult to figure out who actually is owed what.
 
@WizardStan Legally, the questionnaire meant nothing legally. I've had this confirmed both by my businesses legal advisor and by the fact that OPL have admitted full liability for the money owed to the county court in writing.

The questionnaire was ambiguous and there was no transfer of my order in a legal sense. A transfer of my order would have required OPL to transfer my original payment to DB, this is what I assumed was going to happen. It wasn't until ED got in contact that I was made aware that the cross-grade was only happening because of donations. This arrangement didn't sit well with me and I, quite rightly felt mislead.

Instead the 'transfer' relied on charitable donations by other customers and the sale of goods at cost price by a legally separate company. In law, OPL are still liable for the original money paid by pre orderers even if they cross-graded. 

I was very busy over the last couple of years and didn't follow what was going on - I was shocked when I actually had time to come on here and start to understand the mess.

Why should I pay a higher price overall than a new customer, and know that I took money from donations that came from other customers. I would have been willing to do this to keep OPL alive, but the last email about the strike off was a big two fingers up to everyone who had supported them

I know we've all got our own ideas of whats morally right and wrong, but I stand by what I did. I now own a pandora, I paid what a new customer would have paid (well a little more in the end - but that was entirely my choice) and I wasn't a burden to the donation fund. Honestly, if it had been any other way I'd have had bad feelings towards the device and not enjoyed it as much as I have.
 
Stuart Fox said:
I know we've all got our own ideas of whats morally right and wrong, but I stand by what I did. I now own a pandora, I paid what a new customer would have paid (well a little more in the end - but that was entirely my choice) and I wasn't a burden to the donation fund. Honestly, if it had been any other way I'd have had bad feelings towards the device and not enjoyed it as much as I have.
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It's good to hear, that you enjoy this fine gadget in spite of all the stuff that happened around it.  :)
 
Stuart Fox said:
I've had this confirmed both by my businesses legal advisor
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Then you didn't explain the situation very well. The email is quite clear as to what the upgrade means, it is an offer and includes obligations: discounted price on an improved Pandora in exchange for forgiveness of the original pre-order. By taking the steps outlined in the email you accepted the offer, and it became a legally binding contract. All obligations on OPTs side were complete, you got the Pandora you upgraded to, and you are bound by your side of the obligations, notably the implicit forgiveness of the original pre-order.
Stuart Fox said:
fact that OPL have admitted full liability for the money owed to the county court in writing.
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Where? I haven't seen this, it would definitely change a lot. I know Craig makes a lot of mistakes but I cannot believe he would put in writing that he believes he still owes something to the people that did the cross upgrade. Hell, he won't even admit quietly that he owes people that didn't take the cross upgrade, he believes those were legally handed off to ED. He is wrong, of course, but it does underline that it would be difficult to see him admitting what you claim he did.
 
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