Oops! Boycott Germany!

[thatgui]

Well I guess germany is a bit singled out but as far as I know the Netherlands had the exact same view on the greece issue as germany, but we are small so we don't have any political weigth.

Germany already earned around 350 million € interest from Greeces misery, so I guess its ok if it gets the blame alone

 

[rSl]

as we all say here in germany: "cdu, und raus bist du!"


(translates to: "cdu, and you're out!")


i really liked how yanis varoufakis, the former greek finance minister (and ex valve employee), tried hard to do good for the greek people.


feel free to read


"Yanis Varoufakis full transcript: our battle to save Greece"

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece


i think politics is in need of a lot more people like him


to get out of this


arrogant top-down/fashist/capitalist/technocratic thinking


that i *really* dislike.


tl,dr


f**k off schäuble!

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

I don't mind Germany gets out of the EU, and the Pyra case production done by a German company. I know it would be more expensive, but since when German products are cheap due to its superb engineering. At least I can tell my friends proudly that Pyra is 100% German made this time.

 

[klapse]

Well I guess germany is a bit singled out but as far as I know the Netherlands had the exact same view on the greece issue as germany, but we are small so we don't have any political weigth.

Germany already earned around 350 million € interest from Greeces misery, so I guess its ok if it gets the blame alone

This ignores the opportunity cost to Germany - that is, how much money the government could have earned if it invested in other things, or lent to the Greeks at market rates.

Pricing-in the risk of Greek default (non-repayment of debt), the markets were demanding far upwards of 25% interest for Greek government bonds, before it adopted the euro.

Since the Greeks actualy did default on their public debt in 2012, they became a pariah on the capital markets. Germany and other eurozone members stepped-in to lend the Greek government money at 1% interest (now temporarily 0%). This is allowing the Greek government to avoid Interest payments of upwards of 24% a year.  On a total exposure of about 86 billion euros, that amounts to 20640+ million euros which the Germans save the Greek state from having to pay to Germany alone - each year.

There should have been NO bailouts whatsoever. The greek politicians should have had to raise money from either taxes, or private lenders, who would have demanded 25, 35, maybe 45% returns against the risk of non-payment.

 

[comradekingu]

What you are forgetting are the assets the greek actually own, the really valuable things, which have now been sold. The notion of anything greek necessitates sovereignty over it by its people, which is also lost.

 

[KickAss]

as we all say here in germany: "cdu, und raus bist du!"


(translates to: "cdu, and you're out!")


i really liked how yanis varoufakis, the former greek finance minister (and ex valve employee), tried hard to do good for the greek people.


feel free to read


"Yanis Varoufakis full transcript: our battle to save Greece"

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece


i think politics is in need of a lot more people like him


to get out of this


arrogant top-down/fashist/capitalist/technocratic thinking


that i *really* dislike.


tl,dr


f**k off schäuble!

if this is sarcasm i totally missed it.


if its not: you cant be frickin serious.

 

[_wb_]

OXI!

Also, I don't believe in consumer boycotts.

 

[Urben]

Its a sad story, really.

On the one hand, if I dont look too much into german press and ask greece people directly instead, they are not mad about germans, it is just our politics they are mad about.

On the other hand, there is the german press, which talks about a single newpaper with Merkel and spiked helmet on it and claim, all greece people are agains us germans. And the regular german seems to believe it.

I'm really optimistic when it comes to the neutrality of media. But I'm having some hard times these days.

As a non-greek I dont feel like I can form an opinion what is right and what is wrong. It's just too complicated. I wish there were more people who prefer having no opinion at all instead of trusting the "wrong", maybe even extreme side. Also the right wing is getting stronger in germany Id say, and the left wing is getting weirder and weirder too. I dont think it will cause a really strong rise of a national party since we are living extremly good here. I just think the society will be poisoned for a long time.

 

[TrashyMG]

Also, I don't believe in consumer boycotts.

Well I stuck with boycotting the Doom movie and I've been better for it. Also boycotted the DIVX Videodisc(not to be confused with the popular codec) back in 1999 as DVDs were fairly new technology and DIVX was a horrible system where you used physical discs sold for cheap, but they expired after after a few days and couldn't play them unless you "rented" them again. Pressure from the consumers actually forced Circuit City to abandon the entire thing. 

 

[Klumpen]

OXI!


Also, I don't believe in consumer boycotts.

Do you not believe in the existence or the effect of consumer boycotts?

 

[_wb_]

OXI!


Also, I don't believe in consumer boycotts.

Do you not believe in the existence or the effect of consumer boycotts?

I'll be more specific and acurate: I don't believe that consumer boycotts are an effective method to achieve political change.

It might help to change the behavior of a specific company or to discourage specific products, like the examples TrashyMG gave. But it does not help to change anything politically.

The only instance of a successful boycott with political effects, that I know of, was the anti-apartheid boycott in South-Africa. But that one was not just a consumer boycott, it was also, and more importantly, a producer boycott, in the sense that workers all over the world (including in South-Africa), and most importantly dock workers, went on strike against apartheid.

 

[gadgetoid]

The only instance of a successful boycott with political effects, that I know of, was the anti-apartheid boycott in South-Africa. But that one was not just a consumer boycott, it was also, and more importantly, a producer boycott, in the sense that workers all over the world (including in South-Africa), and most importantly dock workers, went on strike against apartheid.

A very salient point. Consumer boycotts are generally just lazy armchair warriors sitting at home and complaining on the internet. Them simply not buying something is totally indistinguishable, unless there are a phenomenal number, from any other person simply not buying for any other reason. A consumer boycotts is a lazy, apathetic waste of time and is in most cases equivalent to doing absolutely nothing- not surprising, since it generally involves you doing absolutely nothing. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess most of the people in this "boycott" probably don't have any significant business dealings with Germany anyway, if any at all... or, maybe they *were* in the market for a new Audi and opted for a Toyota Aygo instead...

A producer boycott is a totally different kettle of fish, since it has a tendency to hurt people with money ( which is all but equivalent to power these days ) and motivate them to either make change, or put pressure on the people who can.

Consumer boycotts are only effective at one thing- tooting your horn in your Twitter circle-jerk and pretending anyone gives a damn about your "outrage".

 

[TrashyMG]

Consumer boycotts are only effective at one thing- tooting your horn in your Twitter circle-jerk and pretending anyone gives a damn about your "outrage".

My Doom movie boycott is for reals. 

 

[rSl]

as we all say here in germany: "cdu, und raus bist du!"


(translates to: "cdu, and you're out!")


...

if this is sarcasm i totally missed it.
if its not: you cant be frickin serious.

why?


i went to a lot of demonstrations lately and there was


always the chant "cdu und raus bist du!" involved at some point.


for me it's fun to walk through the narrow streets of the


central city and shout out "our" demands loudly.


my "activism" even began with a demonstration called


"no greek sellout!" in 2011, so i'm pretty consistent here.

 

[gadgetoid]

Consumer boycotts are only effective at one thing- tooting your horn in your Twitter circle-jerk and pretending anyone gives a damn about your "outrage".

My Doom movie boycott is for reals. 

Spoiler: It's utterly terrible

I think you'd have to go out and actively burn ( as in set fire to, not pirate ) copies to really make a difference though... not actually a bad idea. Could save time and do the Hobbit movies while you're at it.

 

[klapse]

What you are forgetting are the assets the greek actually own, the really valuable things, which have now been sold. The notion of anything greek necessitates sovereignty over it by its people, which is also lost.

You are probably referring to the 50 billion euro collateral that the deal calls for in order to receive 86 billion in new loans.

Part of this would go to recapitalize their banks. So if they keep 'our' 320+86 billion, they risk losing control of significantly less than 50 billion in privatized assets. In addition the privatization programme, originally intended to be run out of Luxembourg now is slated to be run out of Athens, which in the event of a greek default and exit, means it can easily be re-nationalized by the greek government.

So, quite to the contrary of having sold the 'real assets of greece' to the rest of the europeans, they get 86 billion of crisp new euros in exchange for putting maybe 40 billion up in collateral, which they of course keep if they pay off the loan, but if not they can probably take back any time they really want to. That means the greeks can walk away from europe with at least 366 and probably 406 billion euro of other people's money - 85% of which has been footed by european taxpayers in one way or another -  and nobody can do anything about it.

And people talk about Greece getting screwed?

(EDIT: I just learned the 86 billion will be used in part to 'roll over' maturing debt, so the total will not be 320+86 billion, but less)

 

[Grench]

I heard the Greece Prime Minister on US NPR a week or so ago stating that Greece should be subjected to the same rules of write down that a person in the US can receive when seeking bankruptcy protection.

OK...

Greece joined into an economic zone (marriage) with the European Union. Good so far.

There was a pre-nuptual contract drawn up in which Greece and the other members were required to honestly state their financial situation. OK - but not. Greece knowingly, it's documented, lied through it's collective teeth on it's finances. Not only did it have more debt than stated, it also made less money (taxes) than it claimed and had contracted outflows (pensions, etc.) well in excess of it's stated expenses.

Shortly into the marriage, Greece notified it's partners (Polygamy is OK at the nation-state level) that it had a problem and needed a giant loan to save them. Greece still didn't get a job (collect taxes) and they still paid their contracted outflows, and they wound up in the same situation again.

So, now the debt collectors are calling - and unlike Italy, Greece is not shaped like a boot and cannot run. Greece is asking for bankruptcy protections and write-offs, but the debt collectors quite logically state: "You, Greece, are part of an economic union (marriage) and your partners have money. Get it from them and pay us."

At this point the partners (EU) have realized they allowed a lying dead beat (Greece) into their menage de many and are considering divorce.

US Divorces typically divide both the debt and the assets equally between the parties regardless of who entered the initial relationship with more or less. Having to give up a huge chunk of treasure to make Greece go away doesn't sit too well with the rest of the partners in the EU.

Greece would like to claim bankruptcy and get it's debts 'written off'. Since it's, "married to money," it isn't so simple. No creditor is going to write down a debt that might be able to be collected from a contractually bound 3rd party.

That is where the analogy gets interesting. You remember that Greece lied through it's teeth when joining the European Union. It's been documented as such. It may be this lie that will allow the rest of the EU to divorce both Greece and it's debt without incurring much more than the court costs of the separation - and writing off the balance of the multiple loans they directly provided Greece to pay it's other creditors.

So, why don't they dump Greece? Just look at the picture (map). Greece helps complete the set - and they just all look so darn good together - and Greece is the cute kid with the smarmy smile on the right in the front row.

Now if they could only get that Switzerland fellow to join the menage de many - and maybe get that family of 6 between Croatia and Greece to join in too - and maybe get Russia to let Kaliningrad go - then it would fill in some of those gaps in the picture.

But first they need to figure out if they can let Greece stick around.

Anyway, it's not Germany's fault that it was one of many countries that allowed Greece to marry into the family for love, lust and completeness. But, once married, they're all each other's financial responsibility too - and divorce is expensive. Sometimes, it's cheaper to keep her.

 

[WizardStan]

My boycotts have been incredibly successful at saving me money and time on garbage.

 

[Klumpen]

If "consumer boycott" does only mean "not buying something", I'm boycotting a bloody lot, like: Apple, Microsoft, meat, eggs, milk, smartphones, most clothes, hiphop, techno, Harry Potter, Steam... the list is endless.

Isn't a "consumer boycott" mostly defined by bringing lots of others to not buy certain stuff either? I guess I'm too lazy for that.

 

[comradekingu]

I think they moved corruption from under the table, to now being over the table.

Money is worth nothing if you don't have, and wont get, a stable economy. Greece has no foundation for that now. They could have gone back to tourism and inefficiency on their own terms, fixing some of their systemic failures and policies in the process. At-least it would be viable. Now In 3 years they will be have repeated the process yet again.

Whenever things are bailed out, its really the investors who don't take a loss, they are foreign or have no regard for the common man, yet the debt ends up with the public.

So all these fancy projects that were only possible on loant money, turns out they weren't a bad deal once the public had to take the fall for them. When that happens, you sell and buy again, this time with everyone under your foot. They did turn, and do turn a profit, but the greeks never got in on it.

Its the same as London, owned by foreigners too, only Greece has no (longer any) corruption to play with.

They are down to paying with the pensioners fund, how is that fair to the common greek? They have about as much influence over that as they had in their old system. It wasn't just the greeks that turned a blind eye.

Market-speculation that is now made illegal actually outweigh all of Greece's debts in the years it was racked up. When you act like a parasite, and demand to call that real business, someone has to pay for it.

Once it was Vietnam that had all its policies dictated, now its Greece.

Should people 5 generations down have to pay for loans that shouldn't have been issued, practices that shouldn't, and weren't, legal, in a system exactly the same... ?

Edit:

Im boycotting white interrailing festival-germans with dreads, that shit has to stop.

Also germans with caravans, they are rats with wings.

Everything else I love it.

On the real im trying to boycott metadata, because someone is trying to employ me on my bill.