Oops! Boycott Germany!

[Caine]

The difference becomes visible when they no longer can pay back those loans.

In the original case, whoever invested money in Greece would take the blow. Now, after the "loans" all Europeans collectively will take the blow (as the "loans" are paid from tax money).

Suppose Greece has borrowed a lot of money from French banks. Then those banks would lose their investment, meaning the French would pay for the loss. Either by losing their savings (due to fractional reserved banking) or by the government bailing out the banks (in which case they pay through taxes).

Now suppose both France and Germany give a loan to Greece, Greece pays of the French banks with it and then they go bankrupt. In this case the debt is spread out over both France and Germany causing citizens of both countries to pay for the loss. Since there are more citizens involved in paying of the debt, the impact per head of the population is decreased.

Though effectively the Germans will have paid for risky investments by the French banks.

All of this does not matter if the Greeks can actually pay back their debt. They need to do some *serious* reforms for that to happen though, and it is highly unlikely that it will be paid back anytime soon, if at all.

 

[thatgui]

All of this does not matter if the Greeks can actually pay back their debt. They need to do some *serious* reforms for that to happen though, and it is highly unlikely that it will be paid back anytime soon, if at all.

Rather "at all", Greece would need an economic growth in the magnitude of China in order to pay its debts back. I wonder wether a debt cut would work in Greeces case, it worked quite well for Germany after the second world war.

 

[comradekingu]

Debt-cuts of debt you cant repay, doesnt actually do anything. They cant rebuild in a meaningful way, because they are stripped of that power.

 

[KickAss]

Debt-cuts of debt you cant repay, doesnt actually do anything. They cant rebuild in a meaningful way, because they are stripped of that power.

how does cutting your debt about close to 100% not help?
its like giving you money for free.

 

[comradekingu]

Because the moneyflow is not what makes something sustainable, the underlying policy that would or would not enable them to pay back once there is a surplus is.

Debt isnt the issue, reducing it helps, but its not the root of the issue, which is how to solve things.

It is impossible for Greece to become a low-taxation paradise for the rich, some parts are and will be, but like before, nothing to do with Greece itself. This will even get worse.

You cant sell out the valuable stuff, resorts, beaches, airports, harbours etc, then keep the poor citizens when feeding them is done via imported goods bought by borrowed money.

Privitizing telecom and other industries is only going to make foreign investors money. Thats what they want, but the loans arent going anywhere. They are still in place.

You need to bring wealth to the common man for things to start building, right now there is nothing, and in the future it will be worse.

Starting to pay taxes is a nice idea, but if there is no money saved up, and nothing to tax, you wont be able to do the 90% tax that germany or any other post-war industrialized societies did. Because there is no unity behind it. And with no unity, there is no will. Failing on a social level, exactly the same as austerity fails to answer fixing problems not to do with everything above the line. The disconnect makes it a mental practice only, which in practice is such a huge leap the boat just sinks. Nobody knows whether to drain it of water or to get the best position to jump from once it sinks.

Fresh capital can only help to change more fluently the parts of the greek system that could be improved anyway, like starting a business, that has some gearing-possibility. But the benefit will be plundered before it can even contribute to society in a larger way.

All in all its like hitting continue on a game if you arent at the controls to do anything.

Cucesco was the last person to starve his people to pay back loans that way, same possibility, only he had the power to do it.

What happens when the powerless greek realize they are on their own, in a country they can claim ownership of?

Already communal health services are gone, that is not effective on any scale. The pensioners fund is reduced, if you want people to be angry that is how.

They have been fired and re-hired again. Even trying to change for the better it was all of a sudden evident that effectivly even the public sector jobs that could be done away with, in reality subsidized the trade.

They got angry enough to elect someone that promised and followed up on this change.

Tourists dont like angry mobs, and the country isnt as cheap as it should and could be, so you need some serious inginuity to wiggle things into place.

I think going back to renewed basics and drachme could have the same effect as lowering the interest rate on lending from 25% to 5% overnight. There is no reason to go anywhere else with your cash, because its a new unsaturated market where money go farther. Only with the loans it kept being profitable because it was criminal, and everyone was doing it.

With how things are done now, you will have civil war long before anything else. Next time around the extreme parties will have even more dismay to play with. If you want to go there, this is how to do it. Exactly the same as pre-war germany.

 

[KickAss]

so whats your solution, if cutting debt wont work in your eyes?


in order to get any form of profitable economy greece needs to go through some radical reforms in any case, in or out of the EU.


and i believe real tough times for the common man havent even started yet.

 

[FaeMinx]

No, the tough times haven't even really begun yet.


It's not just the common man getting angry... A great reckoning looms.


individual lives, whole nations, power structures, vast eons of careful planning and manouvering will be obliterated.


All who fail to take heed will be swept under. I have warned you repeatedly, in every way it is possible to express myself in this density.


You fear death, loss of the riches you have gathered to yourself. Loss of your position. This will defeat you.


We have no fear. We are all to willing to spend ourselves. If this planet is destroyed in the process, that is no great matter.


Billions of years is but a moment in our scheme.


P.s. its all make believe folks!


Don't believe everything you see on Tele-vision.

 

[comradekingu]

Well the solution is to leave the eurozone. That gives you more freedom, and if they do it after having tried the dictated solution, which they in no uncertain terms refer to a "blackmailing", they save face too.

Staying in it, will let it dictate matters just as it did before, the wellbeing of greeks is not the concern at all. And they have showed nothing capable of helping either finances or the situation, on both sides of the table.

If cutting back doesnt answer the real problem, and new loans are coming in still at a faster rate than what can be accounted for, something has to give.

Right now the prime minister can't even control his own party. Ukraina was heavily corrupt too, its not just a problem that can be solved, you have accumulated power and possibility for quite non-democratic people in the process.

 

[KickAss]

thats not quite true. reforms are beginning to take shape and they are cutting deep. greece tries hard, very hard, to save up.


in the eu, theres forces willing to help. noone takes advantage of a failing greek state. but shit costs money and someones gonna need to pay. the damage greece is about to face will be compensated through eu mechanisms. but of course theres still a price to pay.


if greece gets out of the eu, theres no defined protocol how that should be handled, theres no safty net. and there will be no further obligations to actually save greece other than to try and make the last possible profit out of its imminent doom.


without the eu greece still cant compete, it cant trade. politics will still be compromised and there will be no driving force to keep urgent reforms going.


without the eu greece's position will be a lot worse.

 

[Neelix]

f greece gets out of the eu, theres no defined protocol how that should be handled, theres no safty net. and there will be no further obligations to actually save greece other than to try and make the last possible profit out of its imminent doo

Has there actually been any talk at all of Greece leaving the EU? I've heard talk of them leaving the Eurozone but that's not the same thing as leaving the EU.

I'm curious how leaving the Eurozone would actually work... doesn't changing currency itself cost money? Would they go back to the Drachma, or would they end up with a "Greek Euro" valued separately from the currency used in the other Eurozone countries?

-Neelix

 

[comradekingu]

If they default on the currency, they are done as members of the EU, and also its economic treaties. If they are still allowed to be in schengen they are lucky i think.

Read more here.

 

[Neelix]

If they default on the currency, they are done as members of the EU, and also its economic treaties. If they are still allowed to be in schengen they are lucky i think.

Read more here.

That might be true, but I wouldn't use or accept that article as evidence for it. That article also seems to confuse the EU with the Eurozone. The article refers to the EU throughout, but as evidence it cites Martin Schulz, in a comment where he was specifically talking about the Eurozone.

-Neelix

 

[comradekingu]

Im just of that opinion myself, they wouldnt change to darchme to pay back with that. If you default you default. We will of couse see what happens, right now it seems greece needs to build the consensus over what to do on their own, sooner rather than later. If the government says it has been blackmailed into a deal, i dont see how they have any hope there is light at the end of the tunnel.

You wont get the real talk before it all comes into play i think, nobody has an advantage in disclosing the options they are weighing.

This seems to be what it comes down to:

What happens with the political parties

What happens with reforming the society

 

[KickAss]

f greece gets out of the eu, theres no defined protocol how that should be handled, theres no safty net. and there will be no further obligations to actually save greece other than to try and make the last possible profit out of its imminent doo

Has there actually been any talk at all of Greece leaving the EU? I've heard talk of them leaving the Eurozone but that's not the same thing as leaving the EU.

I'm curious how leaving the Eurozone would actually work... doesn't changing currency itself cost money? Would they go back to the Drachma, or would they end up with a "Greek Euro" valued separately from the currency used in the other Eurozone countries?


-Neelix

i should of been more precise, i meant the eurozone.

there has been talk about greece leaving the eu, yes. but only talk. back in 2012 i think mr. cameron himself started a discussion about limiting eu rights of greek citizens to ensure britain wont get flooded by poor greek refugees.


if greece leaves the eurozone it may very well affect its status in the eu (as theres no predefined protocol).


iirc theres been something called "plan z", introducing different scenarios how greece could continue (within and out of the eurozone). i dont remember any detail but one of the scenarios introduced the "new drachma" which would be the valid currency simultaneously with the euro in order to support greece's independence and control of its own economy.


but thats really complex because the trading mechanisms in place werent build to work like that.