Of bare boards and investments (2011-10-13)

[ivanovic]

You aren't trying to suggest abandoning the Linux kernel and creating a brand new kernel from scratch... are you? That would be a terrible idea. Of course, if you're talking about updating the kernel (which is much more reasonable), correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Hotfix 6 come with a kernel update?

Like mentioned above me, non of the Hotfixes include a updated Kernel, we still use a pretty outdated Linux Kernel on the Pandora which leads more and more to trouble with newer Software that expects newer Kernels.

Details, man, details!


As mentioned before the kernel is *NOT* outdated. That is: the kernel is the latest version of a (now older) stable series that is still officially supported with updates. Though it is not the *latest* stable series. That is: There is not a single *program* out there atm that relies on a more recent *KERNEL*. What relies on a more recent kernel are different drivers for different hardware, like eg some USB TV sticks.


Please try to read more about the stuff you post about, since you often show that you only know half the truth and don't have a too strong background regarding what you write about. There is a reason why those "older kernels" are used. Eg check what your router is using, it is likely to even be a 2.4.x kernel.


If you want a more recent kernel: learn what is needed to actually help with *doing* the work and then help doing it. You seem to *very* often underestimate the work required to get something done. That is not just a case of "company abc will create an .exe installer for me that i double click to install". If you are "company abc" you might have to spend quite a lot of time on getting things done, especially in case when there *is* no actual company with paid employees behind the scene to get the work done. The whole of the OS is created and maintained by individuals doing so in their free time without getting a single cent out of their efforts.

 

[fusion_power]

I have no clue why you always get so angry, I never insult people or anything like this and I don't underestimate anything, you really seems to get angry no matter what I write, this is not fair.


And it was not my idea that the Pandora may have an "old" kernel that may lead to some trouble and may get "fixed" to a "new" Kernel... <_<


I already lerned here that these tings are more complex than I expected first. Maybe I just see it from the wrong perspective, In my case the PC perspective to be honest. And there the Linuxers seems to use a newer Kernel as soon it is available without much trouble or problems or anything. I mean, there IS sureley a reason why they release new Kernels and actualy ALOT newer Kernels. I mean they don't do this just for fun and in my experience it is always a good Idea to use the latest (stable) Drivers and Software Components because there always is a reason WHY there are newer Drivers, Kernels, Software Versions. ...At least in the Windows Environment, I don't use Linux on my PC. ^^"


All I want is that the Pandora can make usage of all the nice Hardware (features) without any Software "Bottle Necks". If this is done with an old Kernel or old Drivers or Hot Fixes is not important. If an "old" Kernel is good for the Pandora, then OK, keep it till the end. But you always read that some of the Problems we have is caused from outdated Drivers, Kernel or Whatever, I didn't invented this by the way.

 

[foxblock]

People are working on a newer kernel as we speak, you just don't hear a lot about it as they are not finished yet and usually keep the discussion to IRC or the mailing list - most people would not understand what they are talking about anyway, which is fine as kernel development is actually pretty complex.


Codename of this development is the next firmware release titled "Yars revenge", so keep an eye out for that.


wejp's Arch for Pandora or Cyberworm's Android for Pandora for example use a newer version of the kernel, but both don't support all the features the current OS does and turning off features in a new, official release is something you probably don't want to do.


But, as Ivanovic stated above, switching to a newer kernel or making use of the DPS (which is often asked for), is NOT an one-click-to-install process. It's not even on the PC sometimes, but it's certainly easier there (but you will still run into regression bugs and so on, which is the reason why not all Linux users switch to the latest kernel as soon at it becomes available, at least for their main set-up).


In our case it's even harder as some drivers, which had to be tweaked a lot for the old firmware, need to be tweaked again for the new kernel. The Pandora sadly does not use an x86 or x64 processor, but a much more obscure ARM one, so for some parts getting the latest (or newer in general) drivers requires tweaking and testing (sometimes more, sometimes less).


I can't get into more details here, because I am not involved in the process and don't have the programming skill to be so, this is just what I get from other discussions about this on the forum and IRC.


So when you demand a newer kernel or talk about the current, "outdated" kernel, it seems to diminish the hard work of a handful of people already working on it as much as they can in their free time (without being paid).


This probably is not intentional, though, so just take this as a heads up and try to be patient until they are ready.

 

[theshining]

well I just cant wait, so lets all try to get to replay in November meet Ed & Craig buy them drinks, fondle a pandora and party like it's 1980

 

[fusion_power]

So when you demand a newer kernel or talk about the current, "outdated" kernel, it seems to diminish the hard work of a handful of people already working on it as much as they can in their free time (without being paid).


This probably is not intentional, though, so just take this as a heads up and try to be patient until they are ready.

I just wanted to explain the situation with the Kernel, I don't demand anything. I also thought ARM is more easy to handle than x86, because ARM is a RISC architecture, I really thought RISC automaticly means "simpler" ^^"" but it really seems to be more complicated when it comes to drivers.


"Reduced instruction set computing, or RISC ( /ˈrɪsk/), is a CPU design strategy based on the insight that simplified (as opposed to complex) instructions can provide higher performance if this simplicity enables much faster execution of each instruction." It sounds so easy, right?


I have to ask my buddy about this stuff, he knows more about Linux. At least, he can handle Linux and even compile a Kernel if needed. I guess on the PC you can switch the Linux Kernels without much driver releated trouble?

 

[Cilph]

I don't see why we need to upgrade the kernel to a more recent less proven version; The only difference it could make is in the modules (drivers), but it is not much of a difference. Software is not at all affected by it, which is more likely to be affected by something as glibc. The ARM vs X86 doesn't have much to do with this either. Modules(drivers) are / should be architecture independent.

 

[Hoodoo]

Yes, userspace stuff doesn't require newer kernel. Current Gentoo is fine with .27

 

[mcobit]

The problem is more, that the software is outdated in the image, not the kernel. The versions of glibc, gtk, QT etc. need an update, not the kernel itself necessarily.

 

[EvilDragon]

The problem is more, that the software is outdated in the image, not the kernel. The versions of glibc, gtk, QT etc. need an update, not the kernel itself necessarily.

Exactly. And that's what DJWillis is working on, though he doesn't have much time sadly.

 

[mcobit]

You tell me?

 

[valhalla]

(...) In my case the PC perspective to be honest. And there the Linuxers seems to use a newer Kernel as soon it is available without much trouble or problems or anything. I mean, there IS sureley a reason why they release new Kernels and actualy ALOT newer Kernels. (...)

The ARM world is quite different from the PC in this regard: the PC is quite standardized, and as soon as a kernel is released on kernel.org it can be compiled for any PC out there and will work. This means that linux enthusiasts can


get it as soon as it is ready and help test it in the real world to squash the latest bugs and to get the latest exciting features.


Other people, even on the PC architectures, are more conservative in their kernel updates: most GNU/Linux distributions keep the same kernel for the lifetime of one release, and while end-user distributions can have one every 6 months or less, enterprise oriented ones tend to space them more, and give support for years, so that their customers can keep using the version that is known to work.


As an example, RHEL 5 uses a kernel 2.6.18 and will be somewhat supported up to 2017.


In the ARM world there is an additional problem: every ARM System on Chip, and every ARM board is somewhat different, so you can't have a one-size-fits-all kernel, you have to do some work to adapt it to your device, and you must update it for every new kernel version you want to support.


This is one reason why most embedded devices are only supported by their makers for one or two kernel versions, and if you want something else you are on your own.

All I want is that the Pandora can make usage of all the nice Hardware (features) without any Software "Bottle Necks". If this is done with an old Kernel or old Drivers or Hot Fixes is not important. If an "old" Kernel is good for the Pandora, then OK, keep it till the end. But you always read that some of the Problems we have is caused from outdated Drivers, Kernel or Whatever, I didn't invented this by the way.

Well, there is room for software improvement on the pandora, both by porting existing new versions of some software and by improving the optimization of other software, but right now having it requires unpaid work, and this means that complaining without offering help is not a good strategy to get it.


I believe that ED's investment plan includes a certain budget to bring in some paid work in this area, but of course it will have to wait until the needs for hardware productions are covered.


BTW, room for improvement" does not even need that the Pandora is crippled by software: up to now I've been using mine almost daily and I've only met one block that will be solved by a newer kernel (downloading data via USB from a certain GPS logger, which btw works perfectly via bluetooth, even if slower).

 

[hedwards]

Our current schedule is to finish the first 1000 in January, the next 1000 in February, etc.

I assume that it's going to be a while before you know how the breakdown between new orders and old orders is.

As it depends on the USD / EUR conversion rate, the amount of investments I get, the number of refunds, the number of upgrades, etc.... yeah, hard to tell right now.

EDIT: Does that mean that you're hoping to be shipping them out through the month or are they likely to end up going out towards the end. Or is it just too early to have a clue.

I'm planning to grab about 250 per week.

Thanks for the info, that's more or less what I was expecting. I suspect that you would like to have the information even more than the community does.