Nintendo Ds Emulation On Pandora

[WizardStan]

Reason 1: why then, would we want an N64, SNES, NES, Dreamcast, Atari, MAME, This, That, and TheOtherThing emulator if we can just go and plug it into the tv?

1: Because they aren't portable. Emulating them is the only way to make them so.
2: Because someone who wanted them actually had the skill to do so, instead of talking about how great it would be without putting forth any effort to do it themselves or even explain why it would be better than any of the other options.

Reason 2: Why, if you are away from home, (and you want to play your ds but you were retarded and forgot to bring it) go home just to get your ds, when you could play it on your Pandora.

If you didn't bring your DS, play something else. Surely you have other games on your Pandora, yes? Unless you are so OCD that when you start playing one game you absolutely cannot play anything else.

Reason 4: Why not?

Because writing an emulator is very difficult and time consuming, time that could go into other, superior projects.

 

[Exophase]

I can give one good reason to carry both: Even if a very good emulator is made, you will still never be able to get a proper experience with any given game as you would playing on the real hardware. The DS is one of those machines where this is very pronounced.

Sorry but that's not a concrete reason, it's just hand waving. It's a pet peeve of mine when people say that emulators can never be as good as the real thing and just leave it at that. I think many people would disagree with you if an emulator could play games at the appropriate speed. Having a slightly different form factor and screen layout will not automatically result in a significantly inferior experience for every game and every person, much less would people automatically consider it an "improper" experience. In fact, for many reasons it could even be a superior experience to people.

Because writing an emulator is very difficult and time consuming, time that could go into other, superior projects.

Superior projects? Like what? What are your criteria here? A lot of things are being thrown around this thread as if they're objective truths.

I can think of a lot of reasons why doing a DS emulator would be very desirable, for a person who stands any kind of realistic shot at making it work well. For someone who develops emulators and not games I can't think of a lot of things that could make more of an impact, and there are plenty of other things that could be left to a lot of other people. DS emulation is not one of those things.

 

[Prometheus]

I haven't played a majority of the DS' library, admittedly. I said the above with games in mind that are designed around the hardware to a point that I can't personally imagine them working particularly well on something else. Perhaps it is just me.

 

[fusion_power]

In fact, for many reasons it could even be a superior experience to people.

True, onto the PC, the PSX Emulation with Bilinear Filtering and higher Resolution is a good Example or all these new High-Res Texture-Packs for (some) N64 Games in combination with N64 Emulators. I know the PAL TV Image Quality of an N64 and I know the Image Quality onto a PC N64 Emulation. And I really prefer the PC.

 

[Exophase]

I haven't played a majority of the DS' library, admittedly. I said the above with games in mind that are designed around the hardware to a point that I can't personally imagine them working particularly well on something else. Perhaps it is just me.

The number of games that rely on the DS's particular screen orientation are a minority. Many of the most popular games delegate one of the screens to a simple map or status display. A lot of games barely even use the touch capabilities. Nintendo could only do so much to force people to design their games around the platform design.

Here are some screenshots to show what I mean:

New Super Mario Bros: http://www.konsolen.net/tests/nds/images/new_super_mario_ds_2.jpg
Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia http://ds.ign.com/dor/objects/958543/castlevania-order-of-ecclesia/images/castlevania-order-of-ecclesia-20081002013438251.html?page=mediaFull
(the other CV games are the same)
Pokemon Pearl: http://dsmedia.ign.com/ds/image/article/736/736584/pokemon-pearl-screens-20060929005422298_640w.jpg
Pokemon Pearl: http://www.whattheyplay.com/media/images/product/nintendo-ds/pokemon-pearl-9105/screenshot/showfile-4-screenshot.jpeg < note that even though this uses two screens the menu can work fine small and side by side
Kingdom Hearts: 358 1/2 Days: http://ds.ign.com/dor/objects/964462/kingdom-hearts-3582-days/images/kingdom-hearts-3582-days-20090528112013371.html?page=mediaFull
Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time: http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2005/332/reviews/928290_20051129_790screen003.jpg
Professor Layton & The Diabolical Box: http://www.hiwiller.com/images/forposts/goty2008/2008_2.jpg < uses both screens heavily but can easily be done side by side
Zelda: Phantom Hourglass: http://www.videogamesblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/zelda-phantom-hourglass-pic-3.jpg

Now if someone would like to make a counter point to this...

 

[WizardStan]

Superior projects? Like what? What are your criteria here? A lot of things are being thrown around this thread as if they're objective truths.

I think you misunderstand me. Superiority is generally subjective. I can't decide what is superior for someone else, only that person trying to decide what project they should do next can decide that.
Example: Supposing you are convinced to start a DS emulator. Project is well under way, but you've hit several snags. Now you are regretting starting this project when you had others that you could have done, the argument of "all in one devices are better" is suddenly not enough.
In that scenario, the DS emulator was effectively a waste of time when you could have been working on other projects which would have had a higher success rate, and more enjoyment for you as a developer. Maybe. Or maybe not.

 

[borgqueenx]

well im sure a dev who starts to make a ds emulator would have all the help he needs ari64 also gets alot of help with his project

but only time can tell what will happen. Personally i dont see DS and psp emulation get 15FPS some day. Even i do know DS emulation is possible, in theory.
This is something i cant explain.

 

[juniorm33]

I think you misunderstand me. Superiority is generally subjective. I can't decide what is superior for someone else, only that person trying to decide what project they should do next can decide that.
Example: Supposing you are convinced to start a DS emulator. Project is well under way, but you've hit several snags. Now you are regretting starting this project when you had others that you could have done, the argument of "all in one devices are better" is suddenly not enough.
In that scenario, the DS emulator was effectively a waste of time when you could have been working on other projects which would have had a higher success rate, and more enjoyment for you as a developer. Maybe. Or maybe not.

If developing an emulator meant only doing what was easy or not challenging then most wouldn't get done.
There can be many reasons to doing one, and those snags can be one off them. In the sense of wanting to learn how to do it, even if they don't expect to have a fully functional one at the end. Are you saying JayFoxRox shouldn't try to do a PSP one because he'll hit snags and regret it?
He finds it an intresting project something he want's to do, sure he could try to do a zx81, but he's chosen not to, even knowing the hurdles.
So he should forget his own thrill and only do things that will be 100% playable, usefull for the majority of the community?
N64 and dreamcast was being poo poo'ed and for good reason, but didn't stop people from giving it a shot, does that mean it's a waste of their time?
I doubt anyone will start any emulator with the thought "all in one devices are better", that's just a possible result of their hard work.

 

[atomicthumbs]

Even i do know DS emulation is possible, in theory.
This is something i cant explain.

 

[Prometheus]

The number of games that rely on the DS's particular screen orientation are a minority. Many of the most popular games delegate one of the screens to a simple map or status display. A lot of games barely even use the touch capabilities. Nintendo could only do so much to force people to design their games around the platform design.

I certainly see what you and others mean about this, and I know how for some such games that emulation is certainly fine for that. Just wanted to clarify this.

Now if someone would like to make a counter point to this...

I don't have a ton of time to post right now, but I'd like to give mention to to a couple of titles that spring to mind immediately.

I think Animal Crossing: Wild World is a good title for me to point to here, as is Nintendogs. It's not about screen-orientation or touch-screen usage, from my perspective, but how the games are played. With both of these titles, one can hold a stylus in one hand, rest that hand at one side of the console (the same as you would when using the buttons or d-pad), and be able to reach all of the touch-screen from there with very little effort or movement.

With Nintendogs, everything but some camera-movement is touch-screen controlled, so being able to reach the entire touch-screen whilst resting one's palm comfortably is pretty important there, I think.

In the case of Animal Crossing, whilst all controls can be accessed with either the d-pad and buttons or the touch-screen (with the exception of one tiny movement which is touch-screen only), some things work better with one over the other. The ability to hold a stylus in one palm whilst using the gaming controls, and then be able to quickly hit the touch-screen with it from there (without needing to move my hand from where it is) is something I find to be quite handy (and surprisingly overlooked). (The game does depend on both screens being oriented one above the other, but I don't see that as an issue here.)

It's cases like these where I can't really see how that would translate well to a different format. Maybe I'm overlooking something, though.

 

[Tokiopop]

well im sure a dev who starts to make a ds emulator would have all the help he needs ari64 also gets alot of help with his project

Because people wanted an N64 emulator, and it would be worthwhile. There's no point wasting time on something that isn't going to be very playable. I'd like to be proven wrong, and see a DS emulator on the Pandora at playable speed, but I really can't see it happening.

 

[WizardStan]

I doubt anyone will start any emulator with the thought "all in one devices are better", that's just a possible result of their hard work.

That's the point I've been trying to make though! If someone wants to make a DS emulator, then they will, for reasons that go beyond device consolidation. But all these posters that seem to be asking for a DS emulator can't seem to grasp that, and that's what is making me so angry.

 

[Exophase]

I think you misunderstand me. Superiority is generally subjective. I can't decide what is superior for someone else, only that person trying to decide what project they should do next can decide that.
Example: Supposing you are convinced to start a DS emulator. Project is well under way, but you've hit several snags. Now you are regretting starting this project when you had others that you could have done, the argument of "all in one devices are better" is suddenly not enough.
In that scenario, the DS emulator was effectively a waste of time when you could have been working on other projects which would have had a higher success rate, and more enjoyment for you as a developer. Maybe. Or maybe not.

Any project can result in failure for any number of reasons. Usually higher risk means higher reward. No one should start a DS emulator unless they've carefully evaluated it and believe they're capable. Naturally we know that DS can be emulated to a good degree, since it already has been. So the question becomes one of performance. The thing is, an emulator that's not as fast as you'd like for Pandora would not have been a waste of time because it might be fast enough for the next generation of handhelds. Or current generation netbooks.

Someone who does a DS emulator is going to have to be someone who is not going to regret their decision. For such a person I don't think there will be a lot of superior alternatives.

For an emulator author - someone who wants to write something new and doesn't want to write games or other apps - what are the alternatives if not something new and challenging? What better to do than something someone else isn't working on with the same goals in mind? Competition is good, but diversity is better.

 

[juniorm33]

@Prometheus:
I've not played any of these games, but it just sounds like your worried about the touch screen which the pandora has????

well im sure a dev who starts to make a ds emulator would have all the help he needs ari64 also gets alot of help with his project

Because people wanted an N64 emulator, and it would be worthwhile. There's no point wasting time on something that isn't going to be very playable. I'd like to be proven wrong, and see a DS emulator on the Pandora at playable speed, but I really can't see it happening.

I'm sorry but before ari64, this was exactly the same discussion, with most people thinking it's not possible and not worth while. The dev's never just stated to help him because it was worthwhile, they helped because he asked for it, he had made a start, he's a fellow developer, that's good enough reason for most!

 

[Exophase]

I don't have a ton of time to post right now, but I'd like to give mention to to a couple of titles that spring to mind immediately.

I think Animal Crossing: Wild World is a good title for me to point to here, as is Nintendogs. It's not about screen-orientation or touch-screen usage, from my perspective, but how the games are played. With both of these titles, one can hold a stylus in one hand, rest that hand at one side of the console (the same as you would when using the buttons or d-pad), and be able to reach all of the touch-screen from there with very little effort or movement.

With Nintendogs, everything but some camera-movement is touch-screen controlled, so being able to reach the entire touch-screen whilst resting one's palm comfortably is pretty important there, I think.

In the case of Animal Crossing, whilst all controls can be accessed with either the d-pad and buttons or the touch-screen (with the exception of one tiny movement which is touch-screen only), some things work better with one over the other. The ability to hold a stylus in one palm whilst using the gaming controls, and then be able to quickly hit the touch-screen with it from there (without needing to move my hand from where it is) is something I find to be quite handy (and surprisingly overlooked). (The game does depend on both screens being oriented one above the other, but I don't see that as an issue here.)

It's cases like these where I can't really see how that would translate well to a different format. Maybe I'm overlooking something, though.

Pandora isn't out yet so we can't say how comfortable it'll be to use the touchscreen heavily while holding it - personally I find this very uncomfortable on a DS and would never opt to do that when unnecessary. In such a scenario the most comfortable thing to do is to rest your hand on your lap or a flat surface, in which case the Pandora should offer parity, more or less.

Since this only applies to certain games and certain preferences I think that's what needs to be said, rather than flat out calling DS emulation improper across the board.

 

[Exophase]

I'm sorry but before ari64, this was exactly the same discussion, with most people thinking it's not possible and not worth while. The dev's never just stated to help him because it was worthwhile, they helped because he asked for it, he had made a start, he's a fellow developer, that's good enough reason for most!

Not to play devil's advocate but I think you're imagining this... N64 emulation was a very hot topic with most people being in heavy support of it. People were also very optimistic across the board. Ari64's development is more surprising because of how soon it happened than that it happened at all.

I also disagree with you that people answered Ari64's call merely because they wanted to be helpful. I'm sure all of the other contributors felt like N64 emulation was a meaningful task.

 

[WizardStan]

Ok so yeah all-in-one is definitely the reason for making an emulator. So then what is the reason for making an emulator?

This is what I've been trying to say, there is only one reason for someone to write an emulator: because they want to. Every other justification that anyone has had has been countered with alternatives. Saying "I want an emulator" will not make someone else write one for you. If you want an emulator, learn to program and start writing one!

 

[Jourdy288]

Oi, couldn't bring self to read all of the above... this is Sparta madness.

I'll just say what I think about DS emulation on a Pandora, I'm too tired today to argue, and I'm feeling ill as well (boo hoo.)

Ethically, I couldn't emulate a DS except for homebrew because they're still selling games for it. Unless I bought a copy and put that on the emulator, I wouldn't do it.
Once Nintendo no longer supports it, however, I won't have a problem.
What would interest me more is an Atari Jaguar emulator, in all honesty, or better yet, more focus on making games to push the limits of the Pandora, rather than emulators.

 

[Exophase]

This is what I've been trying to say, there is only one reason for someone to write an emulator: because they want to. Every other justification that anyone has had has been countered with alternatives. Saying "I want an emulator" will not make someone else write one for you. If you want an emulator, learn to program and start writing one!

I mentioned some other reasons, maybe you missed them since they were buried.. here's a bullet list of whatever I can think of.

These things can be done with some or all flashcards or extra devices, sometimes only the more high end ones, so if they can consider it an advantage not having to buy it:

- Have several games on one card
- Save states
- Cheat support
- Pause anywhere (games don't always allow this)
- Not limited as much in save space
- Can download save games from other places
- Can put variable ROMs and possibly peripherals on want on the GBA slot (for DS you'd need a slot 2 card and for DSi you're out of luck entirely)

These are advantages that can't be done on the real thing:

- Fast forward. While it might seem unlikely that Pandora will be fast enough for this to ever be that useful I wouldn't count it out for all games. I saved a significant amount of time using this in gpSP in Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow, on PSP. Remember, fast forward = high frameskip, so if you can get good results w/o frameskip then you should be able to fast forward some with it.
- Slow motion (hopefully not just the unintentional kind ;P)
- Options to improve execution quality in some games by allowing more clock cycles to be emulated than would on the real thing, again this depends on overall performance. gpSP's liberal cycle policy really does cause some games to run noticeably better than they do on a GBA.
- Rewind
- Image filters (speed hit but we do have a DSP)
- Higher resolution 3D could be possible at least in theory, although it'd be a decent performance hit too
- Reassign controls arbitrarily
- Change orientation of screens
- If you only need one screen active then you can get a much bigger display than a real DS
- Audio could be higher quality, through higher frequency processing, interpolation, filtering, and most likely better hardware
- Can be used to debug, not as effectively as one on a PC, but still somewhat doable with the keyboard et al
- TV out, unless there's some mod or something I don't know about
- Long shot, but if WiFi emulation were done then you might be able to play adhoc WiFi games over an internet connection, something a DS can NOT do.

 

[WizardStan]

I mentioned some other reasons, maybe you missed them since they were buried.. here's a bullet list of whatever I can think of.

You are correct sir. Your arguments have swayed me. Despite the fact that I have no interest in writing such a thing, I find your large list of reasons for such a thing to exist too compelling.