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GunPei2X said:
Mouse emulation on Amiga/ST/DOSbox. Yes, touchscreen can be used for this, but in games like Vroom and F1GP analogue would be superior.
I had an analogue joystick for my amiga 1200 - the amount of games that meaningfully supported it were few. PC games were different I'll admit though - X-Wing/Tie Fighter were much more playable with analogue joysticks. (edit)

I think we have to get some perspective here - are there enough games and emulators that actually utilise the analogue stick to make a delay worth it?

personally, I don't think so :)
 
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Esn said:
After seeing that video, I vote for a delay. 1mm really does look too small; what's the point of an analogue nub if you can barely control the strength of the direction?

1 month does not sound so bad (though since that's the "minimum", it'll probably be a little longer).
I agree completely.
The whole point of having analogue sticks is for precise control. The smaller ones really don't seem to offer this, so what's the point of using them? I say wait and get it right first time.

Besides the Pandora won't be that useful for the first month or two anyway, until all the main programs are ported to it and tweaked for better integration. We might as well wait a month longer and the whole experience will seem more mature and professional :)
 
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Well, think of it this way. 1 month delay vs 3-5 years of using the Pandora.

btw Milo, I wasn't talking about an analogue joystick for Amiga, I was talking about using the analogue stick as a mouse in certain games.
 
Hmm... I must say, those smaller ones don't look fantastic. The difference in throw is a hell of a lot. Of course, they may still control reasonably, but the only way to find that out is to try out a game with them - but somehow I suspect not.

So, much as I hate to do so, I'm forced to side with those who suggest a delay, providing:
- A custom nub is not going to cost you so much as to break Pandora's long term profitability.
- You are expecting no other parts to do something similar; it would be silly to wait until september only to discover that now the USBOTG port isn't available.
- You do not consider the dual analogues an afterthought in design (NB: personally, I do - I've never used analogue sticks in controlling psx games, and d-pads, imo, do rock a lot more than them. But lots of people, for whatever reason, don't).

Really it comes down to finance and probability of other upsets in the mean time...

EDIT: It crossed my mind that I should probably mention that the BLU/BLU+ scenario *could* easily be avoided here; all you have to do is make sure programs interface with the analogues as a device confirgurable by Linux, and have a sensitivity setting in the settings bit of the main gui. The result would be that programs themselves do not have to even know which model your Pandora is; it's just you might score lower on the international high score tables for some things on the tiny-travel controls.

BLU/BLU+ and recent F200/F200+(esque) issues are more problematic when you're dealing with screens than controls, since screens often take differing signal types between models. Somehow, I suspect controllers do not. So it would also, in my opinion, be reasonable to make a first batch with the slightly inferior controls - it certainly wouldn't influence whether *I* would buy it from that batch or not (of course I would - I'm getting more and more impatient by the day). It'd just be a nice bonus for those who hang on beyond the first 3000.

That said, it might also make sales figures hard to predict if there are enough people who feel analogue to be an essential enough to not purchase as early as they otherwise would.

Also, might it be a worthwhile endeavour for members of this forum who do electronics to dig around a bit as per the headphone jack threads and see if we can find ones which might be superior that the team have missed? At the very least it would confirm that a delay is really the only route to get a higher throw distance...
 
ok after seeing that I am one hundred percent sure that I want bigger ones. I guess PSP nubs would work, but I've heard a lot of complaints about those, and we're trying to make a device for everyone, right?

I say go for the delay. I was looking forward to getting it on my birthday in august, but hey, I'll just tell me family to give me a coupon! :)
 
Kyosys said:
ok after seeing that I am one hundred percent sure that I want bigger ones. I guess PSP nubs would work, but I've heard a lot of complaints about those, and we're trying to make a device for everyone, right?
One of the things I don't like about the PSP nub (besides there only being one and unclickable) is that they tend to not center correctly after a lot of use. I own a launch PSP with that problem.
 
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crazedover said:
Kyosys said:
ok after seeing that I am one hundred percent sure that I want bigger ones. I guess PSP nubs would work, but I've heard a lot of complaints about those, and we're trying to make a device for everyone, right?
One of the things I don't like about the PSP nub (besides there only being one and unclickable) is that they tend to not center correctly after a lot of use. I own a launch PSP with that problem.

I don't like the PSP ones at all really, the plastic itself rubs and makes your thumb sore over a small period of time and the design makes it very hard to keep the part itself clean! Small things you may think but all add up to making the perfect system, the PSP is FAR from perfect....
 
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To me it's simple-take your time and get it right! release this with lousy controls and you are dead. The magazines aren't going to say "Wait-remember that machine with the terrible stick? Well, they've made a new one so go buy!!!"

A lot of us want good analogues. For lots of things. End of story!

The time taken to get the sticks right will pay off in the end. The devs can really make sure everything is working great for release day, no cock ups on the GUI front etc. The extra couple of months will heighten excitement and you can relax knowing all is gonna be great!

And finally, all the people clammering for it NOW are mostly noobies who never lived through the GP2x mess. They released the damn thing with bad controls and it was awful. If you noobs had been here for that there is no way you would be just I WANT IT NOW!!!! You would be "Get it right first!"

Remember, a Pandora is for life, not just for Summer...
 
I don't think it's fair calling somebody a noob just because they haven't owned a device with bad controls
 
I'm conflicted... To paraphrase Voltaire, 'the perfect is the enemy of the good'. I appreciate the commitment to making the best possible gaming console and not cutting corners, but at some point you have to fish or cut bait. Otherwise, you end up with idealistic vaporware.

I guess I'm not seeing the horrid controls that others are seeing in the video. Sure, the range isn't as wide as the original, but without holding it in my hands, its hard to judge how it affects gameplay. I would love to see someone mock up rudimentary controls (with both sticks) and have some of the more discerning members of the community do a comparison of PSX games, as was suggested earlier in this thread.

I also think the wide base of the original analog serves as an optical illusion to the comparative range of the two. In many ways, the new analog appears to be functionally more sturdy as well. The clicking seems (and according to mweston, is) better on the new stick, and it seems to center more quickly as well. Of course the latter could just be because it doesn't have as far to travel.

That being said, I would hate to see the pandora shipped with a broken control scheme (I owned an GP2x and had to get a DaveC cap shortly after purchasing because it broke off). The real factors though are how long it will delay the units release and whether there will be an increase in cost for the custom unit (I'm nore concerned about the cost to the consumer than actual production costs here :) )

Anyway, I'm confident whatever decision is made, it will be well thought out and the best for the Pandora. Looking forward to future updates on the blog!
 
The few games I'd play would be shooters and I find the travel on the new ones just fine. Some testing in prototype cases would be nice.
 
A nub with 1mm travel would to me make it almost pointless, you may as well play with the digital pad. I'm happy to wait.
 
Well, given that they have made hardware choices without posting video's before, I get the feel that MWeston isn't too happy with the 1mm analog, and wanted to see if the community agrees. I've been told that this is primarily a portable gaming and emulation device, and in that case, you'd want as much analog control as possible (some of the arguments against, sound like they are from people less interested in gaming, more in the UMPC aspect).

So if indeed gaming is the first purpose of this device, 1mm of action is not enough. Also, if N64 really does get ported, there is no way it will be playable with the 1mm movement. Even from a UMPC standpoint, 1mm movement for mouse control means either really slow movement, or really uncontrolable acceleration when the 1mm is reached. Also, any linux ports and other mouse based action games will not be able to effectively use them.

Let's look at the pro's vs. con's for a sec. A 1mm analog really drops it's use for gaming. Like one poster said, it's more like for menu navigation at that point. So what is the advantage of the 1mm? Time, it comes out sooner, that is all (it's placement for smaller hands isn't something I'd consider as a big enough advantage to include). The cons of them is basically, for gaming you now have the gaming control set of the GP2X (I mean the game controls specifically, no analog all digital, even if you have somewhat more of them).

Now lets look at using a larger one. The benefits are that they can now be used for gaming. Also, for it's umpc aspects, you now have greater mouse capability. The con: You have a delay.

If we are sticking with the idea that this is a game device first and UMPC second, the answer seems clear. It's the gaming concerns that come first, not the delivery date (if I've correctly absorbed the designer's stated positions on these forums and elsewhere). Small analogs = slow mouse movement -or- hard to control acceleration when the analog reaches it's maximum movement. Yes this can be tweaked, but it will never be perfect. The thumbs aren't necessarily the most dexterous digits.

Remember, it sounds like a small amount of difference, but we're effectively talking Area (2D), so 1mm vs 2mm of movement = a difference of 4x the amount of play.

As for people who have used many analogs, I trust your opinions over those who have not, and you all seem to agree with the above. Personally, I've tried playing n64 on a small analog (Goldeneye) and it was unplayable.

/Sorry if I sound presumptuous, trying my best to not make my points come from a personal place. Though personally, I agree with finding a better solution than 1mm of action on the analog. Yes there are one or two personal points, but to focus on those and not the main body of the post, would be disingenuous.
 
Also, was the original only 2mm of play? I see MWeston said that he'd be happy with 2mm, but not what original was. If it was 3mm, then 1mm would have 1/9th the amount of play of the original.
 
Anyway, what are the chances of an MK2 version of the Pandora to have exactly the same components as the first version?

I mean, I suppose they are going to buy a number of components according to the number of consoles made on the first batch.

It's possible that some components will have to be changed on a second revision of the Pandora, as some of the components from the first batch won't be available on the future...
 
I would certainly prefer the 2.5mm one, or something similar. The 1mm one looks very difficult to use. Even if there is a delay.
 
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