Release new bare-bones web repo / mirror

[mcobit]

It would be nice if the Repo showed what license the PND says it is and (if applicable) listed the source code URL. As it is now, the only way to find out for a lot of programs is to find the PXML and look at it manually.

It already does, just klick on the application and on sourcecode


Of course, if the author doesn't provide such contend in the PXML, you cannot view it on the repo.

 

[ekianjo]

It would be nice if the Repo showed what license the PND says it is and (if applicable) listed the source code URL. As it is now, the only way to find out for a lot of programs is to find the PXML and look at it manually.

It already does, just klick on the application and on sourcecode


Of course, if the author doesn't provide such contend in the PXML, you cannot view it on the repo.

GOod point - just noticed it now. Then, no excuse.

 

[Rockthesmurf]

Hi there,


I have not given permission for KAMI RETRO on Pandora to be released via any distribution method other than repo.openpandora.org


I am against using DRM, as I feel it gives legitimate end users and worse experience, and I thought with such an awesome community, the need for DRM would not be a real issue.


I hope and believe that the Pandora Platinum Pack has been created with good intentions, however I am in the same position as Geca, I don't even have the sole say in how KAMI RETRO is distributed. For some platforms we worked with a large (global) publisher, for which we have legally binding contracts, I am also part of a company, Paw Print Games, and Paw Print Games is the entity which has to make such decisions, not solely me. The option of making an Indie Bundle/Platinum Pack should be a decision that the respective developers should have - I don't think it is right or fair for anyone else to distribute up work that we have done regardless of whether they are assurances of money being gifted for the purchases.


Something that is quite annoying, for (probably most) of the commercial Pandora titles, there has been some amount of problems getting them released (Paw Print Games decided to release KAMI RETRO knowing it will probably end up costing them money, not making it, this isn't necessarily a nice move for a shareholder) so there has been some suggestion internally that DRM would be a good idea. I've gone and said don't worry about, there will be no problems, trust me, and now there is an alternative store, which is now selling our copyright IP, without my permission, lets say it doesn't bode too well.


So this is a friendly comment, saying I don't approve of this distribution, and I would like it to stop, for KAMI RETRO at least. I sincerely hope KAMI RETRO can be removed, and this can be the end of it, as if this isn't the case Paw Print Games will have no further options other than to pursue other means to have the software removed/site taken down.


Finally, I'd just like to reiterate what an awesome community this is, reading just about everyones comments about being against this unauthorised distribution of commercial software. It's nice as a developer to feel everyone is a big happy community, rather than the 'us vs them' feeling you get when you put software on to the any of the large mainstream markets.


Steve

 

[Wootson]

Considering the GPL comment I made: I was naming something from the top of my head, thinking it had "no-redistribution" rights included. There are a few different versions of GPL, so I don't know everything in detail. What I tried to say is that you need to triple check every license for every PND in the repository, and it might also change in between with every new release. How on earth are you going to manage all that? That is really a nine-to-five job and you cannot expect other people to eventually pay you for doing that because you provide this as a "service".


Of course I'm just kidding(!), but this is what I could do:

• Create alternative repository with back-end scripts for ripping the existing ones
  
• Display one or more advertisements on every page
  
• Get partners for hosting, so it costs me nothing
  
• Rip source code and sell it
  
• In the meanwhile sell Pandora merchandise
  

I think it is time to make a 100% official repository that is maintained by one or more persons, of which nothing is redistributable without any prior permission. Craig had this idea for a while, in some way. I think it's a step in the right direction. Developers need to be assured that things are in the right (professional) hands. You also have to think ahead. What are you going to do when your server gets hacked and the commercial content gets stolen? DDos attack? PND's get replaced with PND's that contain malicious code? Is the administrator trustworthy and who decides that he is? Who is going to check the administrator?

 

[diligentcircle]

Considering the GPL comment I made: I was naming something from the top of my head, thinking it had "no-redistribution" rights included. There are a few different versions of GPL, so I don't know everything in detail.

All versions of the GNU GPL are free software licenses; all free software licenses (by definition) allow verbatim redistribution (among other things). So for the GPL, LGPL, and AGPLv3, you are allowed to e.g. simply re-upload a PND you downloaded of the program to your own site. (The only differences, actually, are: the LGPL is a bit more lenient with its copyleft, and AGPL requires the source code to be available to people using the program over a network. Of course, these differences don't matter for verbatim redistribution.)


[/off-topic]

 

[Binky]

Seriously, disable all downloads from pandoria, until this is sorted out.


Some devs might let you mirror their work if you ask nicely first, but not behind their backs

 

[ekianjo]

Dredd, my software PandoraClock is still available on your website : http://pandoria.org/non-free/


PLEASE REMOVE IT.

 

[zLouD]

Dredd, my software PandoraClock is still available on your website : http://pandoria.org/non-free/


PLEASE REMOVE IT.

What are you talking man? It's not, stop shouting like a stupid chimp.


It's just a link to the repo.openpandora.org download of the PND.


SO FUCKING CALM DOWN!


Greetings


P.S.


Hahaha, so much rage.

 

[ZXDunny]

Dredd, my software PandoraClock is still available on your website : http://pandoria.org/non-free/


PLEASE REMOVE IT.

Send a DMCA request to his ISP. That should get his attention.


D.

 

[ekianjo]

Dredd, my software PandoraClock is still available on your website : http://pandoria.org/non-free/


PLEASE REMOVE IT.

What are you talking man? It's not, stop shouting like a stupid chimp.


It's just a link to the repo.openpandora.org download of the PND.


SO FUCKING CALM DOWN!


Greetings


P.S.


Hahaha, so much rage.

I asked for complete removal. A link won't do it.


Hard-linking the repo should not be recommended anyway.


Anyway, no links, nothing.

 

[zLouD]

Really? You are crazy, get over it you control-freak.


Do as ZXDunny said.


If i would be in dredds situation the thing i would do is similar to what you want:


I would completly ignore you.


And you know what? I will link to this download too now and edit the link into this post.


JUST FOR THE LULZ!

 

[skeezix]

This is all really a shame, but its serious stuff; ojn the one hand, you want to do a service so you just snard fup everything and offer it for download, as a mirror.. great!


But the trick is.. its not really up to you to distribute someone elses work; so you're doing something of your own time and for free, so you feel annoyed when people bite you.. but if you're talking legalities, then theres certain lines that are carefully drawn. Whethor your honour them or not is your own business, but suffice to say.. redistribution of commercial applications is usually not legal, even with the best of intentions. "Best of intentions" has been an excuse for atrocvities for thousands of years, after all


Wjhat shoudl be done here is..


- mirror all the free stuff; call it a mirror, a backups ervice, in case the repo/etc blow up.


- if anyone doesn't want their stuff there, _RESPECTFULLY_ remove it; this is both kind, and legal


- I didn't read the thread, but I expect everyone got all hot and bothered, rightly so on both sides; but lets keep it level.. don't everyone go shooting each other, it doesn't have to be that way..


- for commercial stuff, you need permission from the authors for distribution rights, even thoguh you intend to do it for free


- for commercial repackaging, you really need permissions..


This is not a case of you going to the supermarket and buying nachos and taking them to buddies place; this is a case of buying the nachos, putting them into a ziploc bag with some popcorn and writing 'jimmi's wicked combo' on it; the company who made the nachos may take issue with their brand being sullied like that.


Anyway, thats the legal perspective of it; I'm not going to get into moral details, as i) I'm sure you kicked this off as a fun service, to be helpful and ii) I didn't read the thread


jeff

 

[sebt3]

Removed reference to deleted post ~ Wally

This is all really a shame, but its serious stuff; ojn the one hand, you want to do a service so you just snard fup everything and offer it for download, as a mirror.. great!


But the trick is.. its not really up to you to distribute someone elses work; so you're doing something of your own time and for free, so you feel annoyed when people bite you.. but if you're talking legalities, then theres certain lines that are carefully drawn. Whethor your honour them or not is your own business, but suffice to say.. redistribution of commercial applications is usually not legal, even with the best of intentions. "Best of intentions" has been an excuse for atrocvities for thousands of years, after all


Wjhat shoudl be done here is..


- mirror all the free stuff; call it a mirror, a backups ervice, in case the repo/etc blow up.


- if anyone doesn't want their stuff there, _RESPECTFULLY_ remove it; this is both kind, and legal


- I didn't read the thread, but I expect everyone got all hot and bothered, rightly so on both sides; but lets keep it level.. don't everyone go shooting each other, it doesn't have to be that way..


- for commercial stuff, you need permission from the authors for distribution rights, even thoguh you intend to do it for free


- for commercial repackaging, you really need permissions..


This is not a case of you going to the supermarket and buying nachos and taking them to buddies place; this is a case of buying the nachos, putting them into a ziploc bag with some popcorn and writing 'jimmi's wicked combo' on it; the company who made the nachos may take issue with their brand being sullied like that.


Anyway, thats the legal perspective of it; I'm not going to get into moral details, as i) I'm sure you kicked this off as a fun service, to be helpful and ii) I didn't read the thread

Thanks buddy for this awesome post.


BTW : I do believe DREDD goodwill here. But as Jeff said, you have to comply the law.


For all the others, please move along.

 

[zLouD]

I own the software. I can do what I want with it. It's not under GPL. I do not want it to be linked on this website, this is my right.


Stop insulting people, too, or go back on reddit where you belong.

So? I don't upload it on my server, all i do is this and this.

Really? You are crazy, get over it you control-freak.

This is both insulting and offensive.

Get over it. You're not concerned by this issue.

And you know what? I will link to this download too now and edit the link into this post.


JUST FOR THE LULZ!

You're going to cross the legal line there.


LULZ doent make you more respected in front of a juge.

I just linked the download from the repo in my post and on the site, what you gonna do? Delete my post for doing a hyperlink or taking the website down?


I'm pretty sure I never will use this pandora clock thing just because he did it and he is a control-freak. The links doesn't hurt you but you still want them to be removed, that's when you are a control-freak. Maybe want to censor me?


This is escalating but it also shows how some developer are, not community friendly. I advertise his app for free and he is telling me GTFO go to reddit.

If you want to keep a link, then do not link to the download but link to the repo page where people can see the description of the application along with other update notices. That is the proper thing to do.

If you would be nice from the start and tell it like this, maybe I'd do it like this, but since you are grumpy and yelling I won't. I bet dredd would link to the PND page if you would just ask him properly like this.

 

[ekianjo]

I own the software. I can do what I want with it. It's not under GPL. I do not want it to be linked on this website, this is my right.


Stop insulting people, too, or go back on reddit where you belong.

So? I don't upload it on my server, all i do is this and this.

I KNOW but I specifically asked for no links.


If you want to keep a link, then do not link to the download but link to the repo page where people can see the description of the application along with other update notices. That is the proper thing to do.

 

[sswam]

If you maintain some non-free PNDs and you don't want me to mirror them,


please contact me privately by PM, or email to sam@pandoria.org.


A forum post is not necessarily going to reach me.


I will attempt to resolve these requests within 3 working days.


If you're not happy with the outcome after that, please let me know.


If I don't respond, please do complain in public!

 

[kuru]

If you maintain some non-free PNDs and you don't want me to mirror them,


please contact me privately by PM, or email to sam@pandoria.org.

Why don't you go ahead and _ask_ maintainers _before_ mirroring?

 

[Wootson]

If you maintain some non-free PNDs and you don't want me to mirror them,


please contact me privately by PM, or email to sam@pandoria.org.

Usually this works the other way around. :lol: It's really your personal choice to get into trouble regarding this (rather serious) situation.

 

[sswam]

That's right it's my personal choice. I've had more than enough misguided and misinformed advice already.


I'm trying to do my best here, but what with all the negativity and spam it is getting me down.

 

[bismuthdrummer]

I did contact Terry first. He's not interested to do this or anything else with VVVVVV at the moment, he's busy writing Super Hexagon. I mentioned my idea to do a re-sale / packaging service. He neither granted nor denied permission to do that, he doesn't have time to bother with small-fry idiots like me. (my words, not his)

(1.) That's an assumption if I ever heard one. If you haven't spoken with him on it, how do you know he's not interested?

If you don't like my scheme, I don't doubt you will vote with your wallet and boycott my ridiculous shop!

(2.) Another fallacy, boycotting only works on markets that require persistent sales to survive, and you said you aren't profiting from this.

I didn't notify the repo commercial game authors yet. I don't need their permission to re-sell unmodified PNDs. Milkshake has implemented a "gift" function on the repo which should make it easier and less controversial, no "illegal copying" involved.

(3.) Authors that post their stuff to the repo are trusting Milkshake, not you.


Legally you may not require their permission, but I think you'd make less developers hate you if you got their consent first before reselling their work-product en masse.

In fact the original developers will know how many I sold, because they can see all the "gifts" I gave in their database. I will also contact them to let them know, in the unlikely event that I do sell a significant number of bundles. I expect they would be happy to have a few more sales.


Who ever got pissed off that he shipped some more product?

(3.) In fact they don't know, they have to trust you on the numbers. What if you get hacked and the datafiles become free for download? What if you've got some duplication bug that allows someone to download the data from a cache on your server without paying?


Then I'm sure you'd blame the user for downloading without paying. Either way, you think the developer doesn't have a right to be pissed for your fuckup?

Why don't you offer the original dev to pack the PND together with the datafiles and put it on the repo using HIS PayPal data?


Then he would directly get the money from the sales and that's it.

Yes of course it would be better to do it that way. If the original dev had the time and inclination to fuck about with this trivial market, and this old game, he would do so - or not. It would certainly be preferable, and I would do that where possible. In this case, the original dev is busy working on his new games and doesn't care to talk about VVVVVV or Open Pandora with me at the moment.

(1.) If I don't speak up about something, it doesn't mean I am not interested. Marketing folks know this very well.


You should become acquainted with the concept that people might actually care but not have time at present or be aware of something to address it.

This level of ignorance is really depressing.

Likewise. I've pointed out your obvious misunderstandings (as numbered in this post), I leave it to you to address or take responsibility for them.

Did you know, a book-seller does not need the permission of the copyright holder to re-sell a book? And he especially does not need the permission of a gaggle of acquaintances who neither sell, write nor publish the book he will be re-selling!

(4.) A book-seller cannot accidentally give away thousands of copies of the book because his store security was compromised. The law doesn't require permission because the copyrighted material can be distributed only on a limited basis: i.e., whatever the book-seller has on-hand.


Please stop analogizing datafiles to tangible objects (eggs, books, etc.), it's a classic misconception. There's a reason common law distinguishes piracy from theft.

The only thing I am doing which might be questionable, is to put the software into a PND filesystem. I consider this to be fair use, it's the best way to play these games on our platform. If you don't like it, vote with your wallet and don't buy my bundles.

Putting the software into a pnd itself is undoubtedly fair use, and perhaps someone will correct me but I believe that no one here is taking issue with this specific step. It's the redistribution of said pnd's that's starting a public debate.


(2.) People cannot vote with their wallet against you because there is no election. You are not living off this as per your statements, so there is no starvation mechanism other than perhaps complete loss of interest, which a majority against you could not enforce.


***


tl:dr;


People are appealing to your intellect but instead you ignore them... I can understand ignoring the insults but then you also ignore legitimate complaints from credible software developers.


I don't think you mean ill, but I would get consent before pursuing your hopeful mission here.