My first impressions of the Pyra


PowerGod

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@oskda : seems to me that your examples will be working even with the stylus, those clickable elements will be bigger than 7 pixels when in full screen.

I use a lot the stylus on the Pandora, the things that could give issues on borders are for example little scrollbars of the windows, or maybe even title bars if very small, because some of them requires a strong push even on the Pandora.

Some of those interface elements could be enlarged using system configurations anyway.
 

oskda

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Obligatory complain: The keyboard layout is terrible.
If only we had discussed this more!
On a srs note: the Numbers are best to reach but used too little, they kinda block the comfortable letter position. Gonna mod that i guess.

I see no problem with keyboard layout because you can reconfigure it totally by software. Even, if you wish, you can take transparent caps out, place other symbol and put "keycap" again, but I suppose you loose light (or part of it) on that keys, A neutral keymat, with all keys blank could have been interesting, as in this way you could print the symbols you want for each key (inserting that printed symbol between keymat and transparent cap).

But I see no problem: you can reconfigure keys totally by software. I don't like layout but I think keyboard is well designed (f.e. you don't wear out symbols as there is a transparent cap above them).
 

elw3

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Just to clarify this:
You are unable to click on the edges, yes, but that doesnt mean it is unreachable.
You can stretch out the area in the calibration, then the position of clicked point and pointer is mismatched a bit, but you can reach the very edge just fine then.
 

oskda

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Since the touchscreen does work but maybe not at the edges but we non pyra users have no idea of how big the not working area is and if that will even bother us, while having the option to use touch is nice on these types of devices.
You are wrong. It is not «but maybe not at the edges»: Please read ED comments again, and you will see it is not "maybe", it is a fault all Pyras will have. Simply resistive layer is an outdated technology and it needs an extra border around display (i.e. resistive layer needs to be bigger than screen) so it works OK on display borders.

If you see old devices using resistive technology (for example Nintendo DS, old PDA, etc) you can see all them have a big border on touch display. Actual displays have not that border, because they don't use resistive touch system.
 

pyrat

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A neutral keymat, with all keys blank could have been interesting, as in this way you could print the symbols you want for each key (inserting that printed symbol between keymat and transparent cap).

I won't lose my faith until ED says it's not going to happen. But I can see it's not such a huge priority right now. As you say, one can reconfigure by software.
 

Bosbeetle

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You are wrong. It is not «but maybe not at the edges»: Please read ED comments again, and you will see it is not "maybe", it is a fault all Pyras will have. Simply resistive layer is an outdated technology and it needs an extra border around display (i.e. resistive layer needs to be bigger than screen) so it works OK on display borders.

If you see old devices using resistive technology (for example Nintendo DS, old PDA, etc) you can see all them have a big border on touch display. Actual displays have not that border, because they don't use resistive touch system.
So it doesnt work on the edges, it does work in the middle, if you remove it it doesn't work anywhere. Yes you do get a layer less on your screen, but you have to remove a glued layer, you can do that if you want, but I wouldn't.

Additionally the technology being 'outdated' is not a big deal, for me personally and I think not that much for any other people on a forum that has a big focus on retro gaming. You might conclude that the pyra is not for you with this screen. But you can't conclude it's bad for everybody and claim that the maker should remove the resistive layer.

I guess there are options enough.
 

oskda

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You come with a point that has been talked at design time, years ago, and repeat it when the Pyra is shipping, and suggest infrared, underscreen digitizer or just no touchscreen.
Several people dismiss your concerns because they like the screen visibility as is, and basically don't worry than 8.5% of pixels are not touch sensitive.
They explain than IR and digitizers are like made of unobtanium for such a project and ED himself explains that removing the touchscreen is an option because after all this is a hackable device, not a sealed iPhone.
But no, you want to complicate ED business and have him offer an option without touchscreen because 0% sensitive pixels is better than just 91.5% (and I wonder, with a completely stylusless new case, or just with a nonworking stylus because of lack of touchscreen?).
You are totally wrong:

I am not suggesting IR or digitizer at actual time (it was long ago since the time to change that passed away). I point to a user who said «absolutely necessary to be used with a stylus» that there are other technologies to use a stylus. In the same message I point the problem «... price and availability for a such niche device like Pyra», so it is a technology that Pyra can't afford. But you say I ask for that change :D Obviously you write without thinking, as trolls do.

Even you say «They explain than IR and digitizers are like made of unobtanium for such a project» when I was who said that in the same message.

About screen replacement without touch screen I said time ago: it could be an option on shop if there is enough people interested on that option. And that would be an extra income for Pyra shop: it would be an accessory.

to cry with you for the design choices at shipping time ?
I don't know if you cry or if you do like ostrich inserting your head under ground thinking if you don't see something (or you don't talk about it) you are safe. Sorry, but I don't think like you.

On other side I don't cry, as I am very patient, in fact we are here from a lot of years ago waiting, and I will continue waiting until Pyra be good enough for me, if it is some day. You can continue with your like ostrich strategy if you are happy with that, it may be you convince yourself all about Pyra is perfect.
Post automatically merged:

I won't lose my faith until ED says it's not going to happen. But I can see it's not such a huge priority right now. As you say, one can reconfigure by software.
Obviously it is not a priority now. But in a future, if there is enough users interested, it could be another accessory on Pyra shop and an income for the shop, as LCD without touch screen could be.
 
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oskda

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Since the touchscreen does work but maybe not at the edges but we non pyra users have no idea of how big the not working area is and if that will even bother us, while having the option to use touch is nice on these types of devices.
Pyra is a pocket computer (not only a gaming console, in fact it is a pocket computer with gamming controls). I will use it more like pocket computer than like gaming console (although I will game with it too). There are lot of software with elements near border screens or where you need to use that borders. If it was going to be a mouse replacement in this scenario it doesn't work.

About how big that area will be: it will be the worst of all units. For example if the fault is between 5 and 9 pixels depending on each unit, we will need to accomodate in standard to the worst, 9 pixels, so we cover all users/units.
And I think not many people are willing to go as far as you to remove the touchscreen for an up to now theoretical impovement of the screen...
I don't know how many LCD devices you have used with and without resistive layer. I have used lots of pocket computers with and without resistive layer and I know how bad they are reducing brightness, adding more reflections and, worse, irregular reflections disturbing more than regular reflctions.

Here I show you a Nintendo DS LCD without resistive layer, and the normal screen with resistive layer:
DS reflection.jpg


Both are in front of a white wall and you can see which of them reflects more white light and which have irregular reflections (much worse with other images, as here we are seeing mostly a flat surface).

And instead of a resistive layer you could have a non-reflective layer to improve display usage.

All devices with resistive layer I have own (a lot of) downgrades image and screen usage.
 
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oskda

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we have that... You can buy that, or just scrub color from the printed. That is actually better cause the color is somewhat needed.

On the Dragonbox Shop, there are allready unprinted Keymats on sale, so you could just make your own layout..

Thank you very much to both :) for the info.

I love that option because you can print (and cut) symbols as you want on a transparent film, even I think you can use a colored transparent film. For example I could prefer red backlight keyboard, and I could do it (losing some light of course).
 

elw3

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i just don’t know how difficult it may be to get acces to the Keymat..
as we have also a heatspreader now
Kinda easy.
Unscrew 5 screws, open the screen to get less stress on the display cable. Remove back. Then either remove that display cable to take out the mobo or lift it carefully with it attached. Its hard to plug in again sadly.
With the mobo removed you can just turn the pyra and the keys/mat falls out, with it lifted you may need to pick the keys by hand as the caps separate from the mat.
I love that option because you can print (and cut) symbols as you want on a transparent film, even I think you can use a colored transparent film. For example I could prefer red backlight keyboard, and I could do it (losing some light of course).
Without the ink the light goes anywhere to. You will need to dye the rubber yourself. Thus i think scratching the keys of the printed keyboard might be better.
However id like to have a pink tinted one someday.
 

pyrat

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we have that... You can buy that, or just scrub color from the printed. That is actually better cause the color is somewhat needed.

On the Dragonbox Shop, there are allready unprinted Keymats on sale, so you could just make your own layout..
i just don’t know how difficult it may be to get acces to the Keymat..
as we have also a heatspreader now


Send from something, i guess ^^

Oh! true ! I hadn't seen it . Wonderful! I had imagined it with color in the walls of the keys but not on the horizontal surface. But I guess it's ok. I'll need to play with it to tell whether it's better so or color scrubbed.
 

levi

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On the Pandora, Exophase's DS emulator allowed various layouts of the two screens or just one on the Pandora's screen. By observant placing of those elements by going through the options, it was always possible to move the edge icons away from the edge of the actual screen.

There may be more of an issue with linux WM elements like the main menu and application menus, but most WM's allow you to move the panel containing the main menu around assuming one edge works better than another. Although learning to use the menu via the keyboard is a lesson most linux users should appreciate.
 

Askarus

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My favorite NDS game is "Advance Wars: Dual Strike". In this game, if you use touch screen, you have same controls in screen border: Among them for example "Menu" and "Swap" small buttons on top border
View attachment 36806
"Yes/Now" options when game ask for confirmation, and when you are using a normal map (not a very small map), you use pen on borders to displace around map bigger than screen.
View attachment 36807

In "GTA Chinatown Wars" you have a few elements on top border: "PDA" button, "email" button... On bottom border for example small buttons to change radio station.
View attachment 36808

Of course on other games it can be OK not using borders, but some games on NDS would be unplayable using touch screen.

And this is Nintendo DS, because a lot of Linux soft uses elements near borders. In fact the is the normal place where you encounter menu and other elements.
Those buttons are not tiny.
Compared to window decoration icons they are pretty large.
From what I can tell there should be no issues hitting those.
 

monty

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Just to clarify this:
You are unable to click on the edges, yes, but that doesnt mean it is unreachable.
You can stretch out the area in the calibration, then the position of clicked point and pointer is mismatched a bit, but you can reach the very edge just fine then.

That is a very solid bit of thinking, right there. Thanks!

P.S. I'm mostly responding to this so I'll see my own post in future and be reminded to try your approach. Self-centered of me.
 

erico

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Yeah I agree. The buttons within emulators wont be a problem. Maybe some dos games in full screen. There should soon be plenty of software solutions for that. On galaxy note, the border corners are unprecise but you notice the arrow advances a little over the pen touch as you approach those areas. It is all seemless and makes no difference within the experience. For drawing, the response time is an all around winner and this technology rocks. On this case, borders wont trouble either as one usually draws taking extensive advantage of zoom, even on cintiq.
 
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