Memory Poll on Pyra

[Granitehead]

32GB... so it seems you want the Pyra to cost 900 USD in the end?

It only sounds like little things you all want to add, but these add up in the end.

uSD would be cheap.Yes, I think 16GB isn't enough. Sure you can, in theory put like 20 different OSes in 16GB, but that's not the point.

 

[Grench]

In my humble opinion:

At least 16GB of >= 90MB/s space if eMMC. This reflects that we'll be stuck with it and may need the elbow room in the future.

If microSD, an 8GB starter card would be fine. A high quality 95MB/s card is under $12 retail.

http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-micro-Exceria-Memory-Class10/dp/B00BJW6CL4

Many of us would swap these out for larger cards, but for most users it shouldn't be necessary.

I know a few people have floated the idea of having both - which I put in the 'silly overkill' column. Cool, but not needed.

 

[EvilDragon]

^if 32gb is the requirement from the people that's cost effective over performance.... there's an option for that... just saying

So, how many thousand people will vote here?

Something you all need to think about:

I cannot produce the Pyra for 200 voters.

I need to make compromises in order to get the best and most important things for a good price, so that thousands of customers will buy it.

If it gets too expensive, it sales won't happen - and then it'll die before it's even released.

Production costs shouldn't be higher than 300 - 350 EUR.

The LCD is already 70 EUR, the SoC is 30 EUR, memory is about 20 EUR, PCB is about 20 EUR, assembly is about 40 EUR, add case, batteries, LCD Cable, etc.

20 EUR CAN make a difference.

The more we add, the more expensive it'll all be.

Most people will never need 64GB when you've got 2 full size SD card slots available.

8GB is a bit small (though it would suffice if you put all your huge apps on SD Cards), so 16GB should be just fine and okay for the price in my opinion.

 

[SNESFAN]

then what was the point of the arm vs x86 poll? it fits the preference until it doesn't.

8gb microsd would allow people to meet the 32gb internal requirement though a individual upgrade. 16gb emmc would not meet that requirement. If the requirement is not popular enough for you to consider then it's as silly as the 12gb ram requirement.

your idea of "most people" should be accurately depicted in the majority of the votes percentage wise then

There is value to be gained from this poll beside the total votes

 

[Askarus]

ED:

So you don't like the uSD only option?

 

[EvilDragon]

then what was the point of the arm vs x86 poll? it fits the preference until it doesn't.

The SoC prices aren't that much different, so if people would've loved an x86, we would've looked into it.

And we're still trying to get more info about the different ARM options.

If Qualcomm or AllWinner would be appropriate and would be even cheaper, then that's even better.

And you NEED an SoC.

For memory, it's completely different.

You don't need 128GB internal storage and you know the prices.

So I can say upfront I would never use 128GB when it increases the price by 80 USD compared to the 16GB version (which would be fine for the majority of users as well).

For RAM, 2GB is enough. I've never managed to use more than 600 MB RAM on my devboard, not even when running FireFox with multiple tabs, PlayStation emulation and GIMP at the same time.

About MicroSD / eMMC:

We're still looking what is possible in what way, what the real disadvantages and advantages and costs for each solution are.

8gb microsd would allow people to meet the 32gb internal requirement though a individual upgrade. 16gb emmc would not meet that requirement. If the requirement is not popular enough for you to consider then it's as silly as the 12gb ram requirement.

Yes, but do you know how well MicroSD would work on our PCB yet?

If we have the space, how much power it would use, what the real speed difference is?

Without even giving approximate prices for memory (that's why I added them for eMMC, as I had them handy already), a poll doesn't really make sense.

Would you get 64GB storage if it's 10 USD more expensive than 16GB? Yes, and I would also vote for that.

Is it worth 80 USD? Not in my opinion, and probably not in the opinion for most others as well.

But no prices had been mentioned, so that poll wouldn't have worked.

There is value to be gained from this poll beside the total votes

Which could easily change quite a lot that using MicroSD instead of eMMC would increase the costs of 50 USD, for example. Or if MicroSD would be half as fast than the eMMC. Or eat your battery way faster.

Nothing is known yet, we're looking into it but that's not yet finished - so without giving these details, the poll won't really work.

That's why I mentioned everything I've known about the SoCs (pros and cons) at the first post

 

[moxie]

then what was the point of the arm vs x86 poll?

 

You are under the impression that there's any point to any of these polls? Interesting. 

All these options are interdependent of each other. All of these things interact. None of these things can be decided in isolation from another. Any poll or vote or declaration of interest for any set of options that are not a part of a coherent whole are at best an idle pastime for us board dwellers.

There can be a meaningful poll when ED and gta04 puts up some researched and possible full configurations that fit together, where you can see features and tradeoffs in the whole thing. Until then, nothing.

 

[_wb_]

@_wb_, I can fit pretty much all of the needed software development tools and supporting libraries and such under 3GBs with Debian Wheezy armhf setup I have on the omap5432 EVM board. I know there are some other things that I'll need down the road, but I don't think it would fill it up much more.. I feel that 16GB is fine.. I do run my Desktop on a 16GB partition.

Besides software (not just dev tools, any software), I may want to put things like detailed maps for the entire world (for use with GPS) on the internal storage. And a selection of a music collection. And some family pictures and movies. And a copy of (part of) Wikipedia and other reference works. And maybe a swap partition. Is 16GB still enough?

Sure, I can put data and software packaged as PNDs on the external SD cards, but if it's something I want to have available at all times, I think it makes sense to put it on the internal storage.

 

[moxie]

Which could easily change quite a lot that using MicroSD instead of eMMC would increase the costs of 50 USD, for example. Or if MicroSD would be half as fast than the eMMC. Or eat your battery way faster. Nothing is known yet, we're looking into it but that's not yet finished - so without giving these details, the poll won't really work.

 

Well, yes, this.

 

[WizardStan]

Hey ED or TrashyMG, can you do some simple speed tests on the EVM board? Assuming it has some eMMC built into it, it may run entirely off SD card like my Tegra4 board, in which case ignore me.

 

[TrashyMG]

^ No it does have an eMMC, but I still need to figure out how to push my SD card install to the eMMC.

 

[EvilDragon]

^ No it does have an eMMC, but I still need to figure out how to push my SD card install to the eMMC.

I haven't done it, but mounting, copying over the filesystem and configuring the PCB to boot from eMMC should work.

 

[WizardStan]

Don't even have to boot from the eMMC if you can mount it and just write/read some files.

 

[TrashyMG]

^ that would just make too much sense..

 

[_wb_]

Hey ED or TrashyMG, can you do some simple speed tests on the EVM board? Assuming it has some eMMC built into it, it may run entirely off SD card like my Tegra4 board, in which case ignore me.

The theoretical max transfer speed on the OMAP5 is 100MB/s for SD and 200MB/s for eMMC. The speed you get with a particular SD card or eMMC component of course depends on the price you're willing to pay for it: faster is going to be more expensive. Since price is obviously an important concern, if we use eMMC, we may very well end up with an eMMC that is slower than the fastest µSD cards. Not to mention that we're stuck with the eMMC speed/size/price of today, while µSD will continue to evolve and become cheaper, faster and larger over the years.

 

[Grench]

Which could easily change quite a lot that using MicroSD instead of eMMC would increase the costs of 50 USD, for example. Or if MicroSD would be half as fast than the eMMC. Or eat your battery way faster. Nothing is known yet, we're looking into it but that's not yet finished - so without giving these details, the poll won't really work.

 Well, yes, this.

Mmm... I think we know or can extrapolate more than that. 'Nothing is known yet' is a bit of a misstatement.

A 8GB 95MB/s Toshiba Exceria microSD card retails for under $12 with shipping included.

http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-micro-Exceria-Memory-Class10/dp/B00BJW6CL4

A 16GB 95MB/s Toshiba Exceria microSD card retails for under $18 with shipping included.

http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-micro-Exceria-Memory-Class10/dp/B00AIH3CUA

ED should be able to acquire these much cheaper in volume with consolidated shipping (Wholesale).

There is already a SIM card slot planned on the board ED pictured. Combo sockets are available that can house both a microSD card and SIM. They are about $2.50 per unit. http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/JAE-Electronics/ST7S014V4BR800/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuJakaoiLiBpunsJ11fq%2b7VPEylYfUR2n4%3d

This is a price increase of $2 over the cheapest SIM only connectors.

Comparing at 16GB eMMC ($19) vs 16GB microSD (<=$18) + socket difference ($2) the net cost difference for the hardware is <= $1. Likely the microSD option would be LESS expensive as the above retail prices include individual piece US shipping.

Power drain of eMMC Vs microSD is very likely a wash or nearly so. microSD cards are designed for use in portable devices. They likely will consume power at a similar or less rate than full sized SDXC cards of similar specs. I haven't heard any reports of Pandora owners who boot from SD cards stating that their battery gets eaten faster.

 

[EvilDragon]

Which could easily change quite a lot that using MicroSD instead of eMMC would increase the costs of 50 USD, for example. Or if MicroSD would be half as fast than the eMMC. Or eat your battery way faster. Nothing is known yet, we're looking into it but that's not yet finished - so without giving these details, the poll won't really work.

 Well, yes, this.

Mmm... I think we know or can extrapolate more than that. 'Nothing is known yet' is a bit of a misstatement.

A 8GB 95MB/s Toshiba Exceria microSD card retails for under $12 with shipping included.

http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-micro-Exceria-Memory-Class10/dp/B00BJW6CL4

A 16GB 95MB/s Toshiba Exceria microSD card retails for under $18 with shipping included.

http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-micro-Exceria-Memory-Class10/dp/B00AIH3CUA

ED should be able to acquire these much cheaper in volume with consolidated shipping (Wholesale).

There is already a SIM card slot planned on the board ED pictured. Combo sockets are available that can house both a microSD card and SIM. They are about $2.50 per unit. http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/JAE-Electronics/ST7S014V4BR800/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuJakaoiLiBpunsJ11fq%2b7VPEylYfUR2n4%3d

This is a price increase of $2 over the cheapest SIM only connectors.

Comparing at 16GB eMMC ($19) vs 16GB microSD (<=$18) + socket difference ($2) the net cost difference for the hardware is <= $1. Likely the microSD option would be LESS expensive as the above retail prices include individual piece US shipping.

Power drain of eMMC Vs microSD is very likely a wash or nearly so. microSD cards are designed for use portable devices. They likely will consume power at a similar or less rate than full sized SDXC cards of similar specs. I haven't heard any reports of Pandora owners who boot from SD cards stating that their battery gets eaten faster.

Maximum speed still is half as fast when booting from an eMMC on an OMAP5.

And the combo-Ports are thicker, we are currently testing whether we could even include it without making the case thicker.

Additionally, I had 4 or 5 (out of 8 or 9 I owned) MicroSD-Cards dying on me, but have never seen a NAND that died on the Pandora (some were broken from the beginning, but that's something different).

This is something that also needs to be checked. From my experience, MicroSD Cards tend to die a lot.

The theoretical max transfer speed on the OMAP5 is 100MB/s for SD and 200MB/s for eMMC. The speed you get with a particular SD card or eMMC component of course depends on the price you're willing to pay for it: faster is going to be more expensive. Since price is obviously an important concern, if we use eMMC, we may very well end up with an eMMC that is slower than the fastest µSD cards. Not to mention that we're stuck with the eMMC speed/size/price of today, while µSD will continue to evolve and become cheaper, faster and larger over the years.

I would rather choose the faster eMMC than the bigger one, so speed for me is definitely important.

So if there is a fast 16GB eMMC or a 32GB slow eMMC for the same price, I'd use the 16GB one.

I've switched all my notebooks to SSDs and they boot five times as fast compared to using harddisks.

Having the OS with all the needed libraries on a fast storage is very important, but for pictures and videos even slow SD Cards would suffice.

BTW: I never boot my Pandora from SD Card because it feels too slow for me (often not responsive or snappy).

 

[_wb_]

Maximum speed still is half as fast when booting from an eMMC on an OMAP5.

Only if you actually get an eMMC that reaches the theoretical interface maximum. Not impossible, but will be much more expensive I think. I don't think eMMC exists yet that can reach the theoretical interface maximum in all possible scenarios (e.g. for random small writes they're more likely to get only 10MB/s or so).

And the combo-Ports are thicker, we are currently testing whether we could even include it without making the case thicker.

This is a relevant point, if it would make the case thicker then forget it. I don't see how it can be that thick though, e.g. compared to the thickness of full-size USB ports that we already have.

Additionally, I had 4 or 5 (out of 8 or 9 I owned) MicroSD-Cards dying on me, but have never seen a NAND that died on the Pandora (some were broken from the beginning, but that's something different).

This is something that also needs to be checked. From my experience, MicroSD Cards tend to die a lot.

You do know that MicroSD cards are also NAND? There are different types of NAND (SLC, MLC, TLC) that have a different reliability, density, and cost / GB. Cheap NAND is less reliable than expensive NAND. At least if it wears out, you can replace it.

I would rather choose the faster eMMC than the bigger one, so speed for me is definitely important.

So if there is a fast 16GB eMMC or a 32GB slow eMMC for the same price, I'd use the 16GB one.

OK, but maybe other people rather have more capacity and less speed. It's nice to have choices.

BTW: I never boot my Pandora from SD Card because it feels too slow for me (often not responsive or snappy).

 I always boot my Pandoras from SD cards and I feel no difference

 

[Pritchy]

So mostly this poll will just to lead a nice pattern of horizontal bars of differing length, but not much else.

...like most of the polls on the boards, then?

I thought that was how all bar charts worked 

 

[Grench]

Maximum speed still is half as fast when booting from an eMMC on an OMAP5.

Maximum theoretical speed on the bus yes. Each brand and type of eMMC varies from 20MB/s through 160MB/s, and speeds all a question of money. I found references to Kingston's eMMC, but could find no benchmarks on it's actual performance. http://www.kingston.com/us/flash/emmc
Only the very fastest and most expensive eMMC is actually faster than the bus on the microSD.

Today's fastest MicroSD is already approaching bus saturation.

And the combo-Ports are thicker, we are currently testing whether we could even include it without making the case thicker.

According to the Kingston spec on their eMMC above, there are two 16GB parts11.5x13x1.2mm

12x16x1mm

A stand alone microSD socket is

12?x14.05x1.28mm http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/503398-0891/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvix4Kz%252byXAvY8l7qWUhbAP

So - even if the microSD were a stand-alone feature on the board the space requirement vs eMMC is pretty much a wash.

Additionally, I had 4 or 5 (out of 8 or 9 I owned) MicroSD-Cards dying on me, but have never seen a NAND that died on the Pandora (some were broken from the beginning, but that's something different).

This is something that also needs to be checked. From my experience, MicroSD Cards tend to die a lot.

I've noticed a lot of brand to brand differences in quality on SD cards. I have those in many sizes and flavors. I have five 16GB Sandisk microSD cards in use for several years without issues. I also have three 64GB Sandisk microSD cards in use over the last 1.5 years (2 phones, 1 tablet). I've never had an issue with the Sandisk microSD cards. I have had a few failures in cheaper brands of SD media (Kingston, Transcend) and no longer buy those.
The modern cards are far faster and seemingly far more durable than even those from 2 years ago. From what I can tell, cheap eMMC is -slower- than similarly priced microSD media.

The theoretical max transfer speed on the OMAP5 is 100MB/s for SD and 200MB/s for eMMC. The speed you get with a particular SD card or eMMC component of course depends on the price you're willing to pay for it: faster is going to be more expensive. Since price is obviously an important concern, if we use eMMC, we may very well end up with an eMMC that is slower than the fastest µSD cards. Not to mention that we're stuck with the eMMC speed/size/price of today, while µSD will continue to evolve and become cheaper, faster and larger over the years.

I would rather choose the faster eMMC than the bigger one, so speed for me is definitely important.

How fast is fast enough? Will the Kingston eMMC you've referenced be faster or slower than 100MB/s?

So if there is a fast 16GB eMMC or a 32GB slow eMMC for the same price, I'd use the 16GB one.

Good, but fast and slow are relative here. 'Fast' could mean 80MB/s and 'Slow' could mean 20MB/s.

I've switched all my notebooks to SSDs and they boot five times as fast compared to using harddisks.

I've done that too. I even put two 500GB Samsung SSD drives in RAID 0 in my primary desktop. Getting a real 525MB/sec read rate is wild. That is in a category far outside of what you're going to squeeze out of the eMMC.

Having the OS with all the needed libraries on a fast storage is very important, but for pictures and videos even slow SD Cards would suffice.

I don't think you understand just how fast modern SD cards have gotten. Current cards can saturate the SD bus on the Pyra (100MB/s) at well over 200MB/s from the cards.

BTW: I never boot my Pandora from SD Card because it feels too slow for me (often not responsive or snappy).

Not surprising, but that was more a reflection of the Pandora's SoC limitations than the media.The CC Pandora's eMMC was @ 30MB/s.

The 1Ghz Pandora's eMMC was @ 50MB/s.

The Pandora's combined SD bus saturated at 20MB/s.

Assuming the OMAP 5, the eMMC bus theoretically would top out at 200MB/s. There are no eMMC available to support that yet. The fastest I've seen is 160MB/s, but they're very expensive. Normal 'fast' eMMC is 60-80MB/s.

Still assuming the OMAP 5, the SD bus theoretically would top out at 100MB/s. There are -inexpensive- high quality microSD cards that sustain reads at 96MB/s (Toshiba Exceria).

The Pandora's 20MB/s theoretical cap (17.6MB/sec actual) on the SD ports doesn't reflect the speed of modern media. It -would- reflect the power drain though, which from what I can tell is likely a wash.

Between shipping with 16GB of 160MB/s eMMC and shipping with 16GB of 95MB/s microSD, I think that the price is a wash, features are a wash (faster vs removable). However, if the eMMC is the 'normal fast eMMC' and tops out at 80MB/s sustained read, then I have to favor the microSD approach.

Do you have any benchmarks on that Kingston part?

If I send you the $12 for an 8GB Toshiba Excera 95MB/s microSD card would you test it?