Marketplace For Openpandora Commercial Games And Apps

[borgqueenx]

Make a app store, and dont put nuch effort in securing apps and games from being cracked. People will crack it no matter what anti-crack method you have.

I really like the idea of an app store.

 

[AireTamStorm]

I was planning on doing something like this with POND, which will be all based on Jabber.


I don't think DRM should be implemented, or even that there should restrictions on redistribution (of binaries and source code, at least). A store which is a Hybrid between our current app site and a donation area, and other services is what I kind of envisioned. You could for instance, add a plugin to the App Server/Client to allow Amazon MP3 searches and purchases from the same store as the apps. The best store would bring several 3rd party stores together in one way or another, making it easier for the user to access content already available while easing users into a model where they get used to paying for small transactions. This will work much better than providing an optional closed source client which locks the user into some frustrating installation and access model that prevents them from doing anything with their purchases. The key to success in the open source market is to be a benefit to your users, not a frustrating, unavoidable cost.

 

[droneb]

i guess it will that way,
anyway i was guessing pnd sure looks great but is it going to be java friendly?

 

[WizardStan]

i guess it will that way,
anyway i was guessing pnd sure looks great but is it going to be java friendly?

No reason it can't be. It just mounts as a file system and executes stuff inside it. The files inside it can be JARs, and the executable can be Java. Easy peasy.

 

[mindlord]

On my Ubuntu install, .jar files can be marked as executable and they just work like any other linux executable.

 

[dflemstr]

i guess it will that way,
anyway i was guessing pnd sure looks great but is it going to be java friendly?

No reason it can't be. It just mounts as a file system and executes stuff inside it. The files inside it can be JARs, and the executable can be Java. Easy peasy.

...or you just either execute JARs directly which is possible with the correct binfmt flag in the kernel, or use a small start script that uses the Pandora built-in JVM to launch some JARs. It's not recommended to include an actual JVM in the PND, because those extra 20 MiB could be used for something better.

 

[geckojsc]

I'm against this shop idea because one of the best things about the Pandora is, although it's about £70 more expensive than many new handhelds, once you buy it everything else is free. The iPod's app store is quite good because the apps are not mega expensive, but almost everybody tries to make money from their apps (even a simple pong game costs a pound in some cases). Do we really want the Pandora to go down that route?

I'd rather have all the applications as donationware, or have it so that the most epic developers and big companies are allowed to sell their software.

 

[WizardStan]

...or you just either execute JARs directly which is possible with the correct binfmt flag in the kernel, or use a small start script that uses the Pandora built-in JVM to launch some JARs. It's not recommended to include an actual JVM in the PND, because those extra 20 MiB could be used for something better.

I didn't say to include the JVM, just the JARs (and necessary data files). I meant set Java as the executable: "/bin/java game.jar"

 

[WizardStan]

I'd rather have all the applications as donationware, or have it so that the most epic developers and big companies are allowed to sell their software.

So you suggest that big companies are allowed to charge money, but indie developers should release their software for free and donations only? I respectfully disagree. If someone, anyone, wants to charge money, they should be allowed to do so. You are then free to not pay, not get their game, and instead play any one of the hundreds of other games that will be free.

 

[dflemstr]

...or you just either execute JARs directly which is possible with the correct binfmt flag in the kernel, or use a small start script that uses the Pandora built-in JVM to launch some JARs. It's not recommended to include an actual JVM in the PND, because those extra 20 MiB could be used for something better.

I didn't say to include the JVM, just the JARs (and necessary data files). I meant set Java as the executable: "/bin/java game.jar"

Not possible, for security reasons.

(Or if skeezix has MADE it possible, it was a very bad move IMO)

Because, imagine setting "gksudo rm -rf /" or something else as the executable line. The unsuspecting user might suffer greatly from it. It is of course true that you could accomplish the same thing by creating a script in the PND that executes the same command, but you at least remove one security factor by blocking external commands in the PXML.

Also, "/" in the PND means the PND root (again, unless skeezix has decided to treat it differently), because a PND is just an ISO image, and internal ISO paths can only point to contents of that ISO. There would thus have to exist a file inside of the PND in the "bin" folder with the name "java" for your command to succeed.

 

[juniorm33]

I'm against this shop idea because one of the best things about the Pandora is, although it's about £70 more expensive than many new handhelds, once you buy it everything else is free. The iPod's app store is quite good because the apps are not mega expensive, but almost everybody tries to make money from their apps (even a simple pong game costs a pound in some cases). Do we really want the Pandora to go down that route?

I'd rather have all the applications as donationware, or have it so that the most epic developers and big companies are allowed to sell their software.

App store, donation links, whatever. I think it'll be hard for someone to want/expect/charge £1 for a pong game because it's not worth it with all the other free pong games that will be out there, so no one would buy it Now if it was a few pounds for a n64 emu....
This is an open platform so people will generate quality software for free of charge(I'm including donations) just for the 'fun' of it and for the thrill of others finding use out of it. To charge for something you'll have to bring something special to the table, and if you feel you have then why not charge for it? It'll just be harder to charge silly money.

 

[geckojsc]

I'd rather have all the applications as donationware, or have it so that the most epic developers and big companies are allowed to sell their software.

So you suggest that big companies are allowed to charge money, but indie developers should release their software for free and donations only? I respectfully disagree. If someone, anyone, wants to charge money, they should be allowed to do so. You are then free to not pay, not get their game, and instead play any one of the hundreds of other games that will be free.

Yes, I see what you mean... I just don't want to end up paying for everything I want to use.
From another forum:

geckojsc:
It's a lot of money, but if you think about it, in the long term it's actually cheaper than a DS or a PSP, because once you buy it, everything else is free since most of the software is homebrew or ports (otherwise you'd end up paying £30 for every game you wanted).

OpenCoder:
fair point, i've pumped over £500 into my DS in 2 and a half years, so....
Edit: continuing from your point about the games being free, i would love this, because then any rubbish games you get won't have cost you anything if you don't play them. Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, i'm looking at you....>

Any ideas for a system that would let good developers sell their software, while still being fair?

 

[dflemstr]

Any ideas for a system that would let good developers sell their software, while still being fair?

Set a base price for a product in the application store, and if something becomes popular/unpopular, the price is adjusted accordingly.

Let me elaborate:
A developer sets a price for his/her product, which should be around $5 imo.
The developer then uploads the product to the app store with the price tag attached.
At first, downloading the product will be free, but using a simple algorithm that uses the download frequency, download count and site rank of the product, the price will be increased/adjusted.
There's no guarantee that the developer will get the amount of money he wants (the price specified is the "base amount"; only if enough people download the product will the price increase.
If the developer sets a price that's too high, nobody will download the product, and the price will fall. And so on.


You asked for a system, and you got one. It's not really practical but meh.

 

[WizardStan]

Any ideas for a system that would let good developers sell their software, while still being fair?

You seem to be thinking that, as soon as people are allowed to charge, everyone will. If the PC indie scene has proven anything, it's that there will always be free games. And even once money does start changing hands, that doesn't mean it's no longer fair. Check out XBL: there are many awesome games to be had for just $1. Have faith in the community, man, and it will take care of you.

 

[geckojsc]

You seem to be thinking that, as soon as people are allowed to charge, everyone will. If the PC indie scene has proven anything, it's that there will always be free games.

Yup, I'm young and inexperienced. I was just thinking about the Apple app store and how many useless apps are making money, and I didn't want that to happen to the Pandora.

 

[Monk]

You seem to be thinking that, as soon as people are allowed to charge, everyone will. If the PC indie scene has proven anything, it's that there will always be free games.

Yup, I'm young and inexperienced. I was just thinking about the Apple app store and how many useless apps are making money, and I didn't want that to happen to the Pandora.

the Aplle App store is a closed system - the Pandora is open (software) right from the start - you can download oodles of free software without even approaching the file archive or an App Store, from the Amstrong repository and...well, the web to be honest. It's the open source nature of the software that makes it easy to pick up loads of good free software, not the presence or absence of commerce

 

[foxblock]

heh, then the whole thread goes to the dump.

if you really want to make a commercial games platform you will def need some kind of code copy protection or theres will be just some first sales until someone post the code over the net and every one else is going to download it and ...

bla bla bla.

then someone yells i wont do it!, then ill reply but someone will, bla bla bla. then after so much bla's i believe we will end with me abandoning the idea of any comercial games for the panda and the only type of games that are going to be made are either freeware abandonware or opensource ones.


ye yeah i time leapt thru time to avoid spendind that much time, unlucky for me that i cant leap more to the future to get my panda quickier

The World of Goo guys released with no DRM. They are proud to have released with no DRM. They flaunt their total lack of DRM as a marketing strategy. They are making money hand over fist!

They also posted a statistic which showed that around 90% of the players did not pay for the game (link) - though they also state (through another source), that preventing 1000 piracy attempts results in only a single additional sale (which supports the decline of any kind of DRM)

Anyway, I think a central place (like the file archive, but maybe a bit modern and up-to-date) would be great for developers and also for uses, so you only have to go to one place to get all you want. (But that's not a new idea.)
I don't think it's worth to create (you also have to code it, which is not trivial if you want accounts, ratings, reviews and secured purchasing) and establish a completely new marketing system with the current maximum user base of 4000 people as that is the number of first batch Pandoras.
That number will increase after the 2nd and 3rd batch are out, but it's some time until then.

In general a shop would be a good idea imo, as for example the iPhone and Steam have proven that this system works and alse generates some revenue for indy developers.
It's no miracle thing though which will make the Pandora super famous and all developers uber-rich and it also has to be built and maintained.

But for the current user base a convenient, central file archive without any shop would be the better way to go.

foxblock out

 

[dflemstr]

A system similar to http://www.haikuware.com/ would be really nice; I think that they have managed to create a system that's really good while still being conservative and non-Web2.0.

The file archive needs a definitive replacement however, as you say, because it's really outdated and lacks vital features (such as file semantics)

 

[Monk]

if you really want to make a commercial games platform you will def need some kind of code copy protection or theres will be just some first sales until someone post the code over the net and every one else is going to download it and ...

bla bla bla.

The World of Goo guys released with no DRM. They are proud to have released with no DRM. They flaunt their total lack of DRM as a marketing strategy. They are making money hand over fist!

They also posted a statistic which showed that around 90% of the players did not pay for the game (link) - though they also state (through another source), that preventing 1000 piracy attempts results in only a single additional sale (which supports the decline of any kind of DRM)

They also state that the piracy rate for a game that WAS "protected" by DRM - ricochet infinity - was estimated (using similar techniques) at 92% (at the same link above, or more directly at http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17350 )

It's hard to draw a conclusion from this limited sample that suggests that DRM is good for publishers or honest customers, but it doesn't seem to be bad for pirates.

 

[droneb]

^ thanks for posting those stats i was talking about.

anyway, going back to the topic,
if we think this much more further, if we start with a commercial site right now, i believe most of the efforts to code for the panda will lead towarsd that way so the next emulator/game etc. will end up costing x amount of money and just start adding, it is just useless for a console just growing up.

for the another side, if they use a price per rate, it shoud be pulled backwards not like the more downloads the more expensive, that would end making the most used stuff so expensive the panda comunity will die, and everyone starts piracy again.