Marketplace For Openpandora Commercial Games And Apps

[foxblock]

It's hard to draw a conclusion from this limited sample that suggests that DRM is good for publishers or honest customers, but it doesn't seem to be bad for pirates.

Oh I never heard me saying so...
You still got a point there (which I failed to highlight) - I was just pointing at some numbers (which basically show how rotten society has become, but well I don't want to get into that too much).
I still don't think DRM is a good thing, it's annoying at best...

 

[musicalwoods]

I'm against this shop idea because one of the best things about the Pandora is, although it's about £70 more expensive than many new handhelds, once you buy it everything else is free. The iPod's app store is quite good because the apps are not mega expensive, but almost everybody tries to make money from their apps (even a simple pong game costs a pound in some cases). Do we really want the Pandora to go down that route?

Yup, I'm young and inexperienced. I was just thinking about the Apple app store and how many useless apps are making money, and I didn't want that to happen to the Pandora.

the Apple App store is a closed system - the Pandora is open (software) right from the start - you can download oodles of free software without even approaching the file archive or an App Store, from the Amstrong repository and...well, the web to be honest. It's the open source nature of the software that makes it easy to pick up loads of good free software, not the presence or absence of commerce

Apple charges anyone that wants to create software in their closed environment, lending incentive to even the worst developers to try and recoup that cost.

Any ideas for a system that would let good developers sell their software, while still being fair?

Set a base price for a product in the application store, and if something becomes popular/unpopular, the price is adjusted accordingly.

Let me elaborate:
A developer sets a price for his/her product, which should be around $5 imo.
The developer then uploads the product to the app store with the price tag attached.
At first, downloading the product will be free, but using a simple algorithm that uses the download frequency, download count and site rank of the product, the price will be increased/adjusted.
There's no guarantee that the developer will get the amount of money he wants (the price specified is the "base amount"; only if enough people download the product will the price increase.
If the developer sets a price that's too high, nobody will download the product, and the price will fall. And so on.

You asked for a system, and you got one. It's not really practical but meh.

This is also known as the Amie Street method, just applied to indie games instead of indie music.

The theory is word of mouth sells games better than anything for an indie developer, so you give freebies away initially. Users who download on Amie Street are encouraged to blog or microblog about the product in return for more free/reduced-price product downloads.

 

[WizardStan]

for the another side, if they use a price per rate, it shoud be pulled backwards not like the more downloads the more expensive, that would end making the most used stuff so expensive the panda comunity will die, and everyone starts piracy again.

It would be impossible for stuff to get so expensive the community dies. It's a self balancing strategy. The popular stuff becomes worth more, until it crosses some magic threshold and is considered too expensive, at which point the sales start dropping as people migrate onto something cheaper. Then the previous popular thing is no longer popular, and the price comes down again. This is not the ideal solution, if you ask me. Just let people set their price and let people decide whether it's worth it or not. If the cost is more than what you are willing to pay for something, DON'T PAY IT! Find something that is cheaper or, even better, free! There are more than enough free games out there that you don't need to own all the pay ones unless you really want to.

 

[Near_Kstor]

In a thread I started some days ago, I was questioning if the pandora is capable of running the Android Apps.

My main reason for that was exactly the possibility of having hundreds of apps (some for free, some not) reunited in only one organized system: the Android Market.

Well, it would be even better if we could access both the Android Market and some kind of "Pandora Marketplace", both with free software and some charged, but with reasonable prices...

The main idea is to provide a great library of applications, so the Pandora would look more interesting to the point of view of possible newcomers.
OH, and of course, everyone could have lots of fun with hundreds and hundreds of apps for Android and some exclusive of Pandora.

 

[Monk]

You still got a point there (which I failed to highlight)

Oh, I was absolutely aiming to continue where you left off rather than contradict or correct you in any way

I was just pointing at some numbers (which basically show how rotten society has become, but well I don't want to get into that too much).
I still don't think DRM is a good thing, it's annoying at best...

The world can be a sad place, but poke your nose around enough corners and, if it doesn't get shot off, you can find some rather wonderful surprises. Like the Pandora!

DRM has always been flawed because the concept is flawed. The whole idea of copy protection is flawed. It costs the app developer, annoys the legitimate customer, and barely inconveniences the FIRST pirate... and none thereafter. Ther eIS one group of people who benefit from it though - the security software people, those who develop the DRM systems. That's it - they are the winners of this whole industry!

 

[Grench]

Actually... the Pandora has a DRM system built in, even if it was not intentional.

All SD and SDHC cards have it. It would be perfectly feasible for an application to be shipped on an SDHC card - and require the insertion of that card in order to operate. Yes, everything can be hacked/cracked - but lets not.

In an earlier post to this thread someone said something to the effect that the great thing about the Pandora is that once you buy it everything else is free. Although this is possible if you just wanted to play Tux games and surf the web at coffee shops, it doesn't exactly lead to bigger and better software development.

The advantage to an open platform is not that 'everything ever written for it is and will be free' but that 'everyone that wants to CAN develop for it without artificial limitations'. Yes, there will be free stuff. I also hope that there will be stuff released that is so good we all have to get out our credit cards and buy it - that may take a while.

A simple system of using an activation code and requiring the console to be web connected on it's first execution would be inconvenient, but I could see it working in the long run.

Another option may be to have the Pandappstore sell registered 16GB and 32GB SDHC cards - then let you download software that will only run with that registered card in the device.

Put away your rapiers and eye patches. Yes, the above can be broken. Should it be? IMHO doesn't matter. For many content providers, some sort of security mechanism is a prerequisite to providing content. This means that someone who shares/pirates/etc... the content has to make the active and knowing action of breaking it. I think the idea is that makes proving intent to distribute in court a whole lot easier.

I would -love- to see secured content providers for this kind of platform. Imagine Redbox or Netflix allowing downloads of pre-formated 800x480 movies via $1 per day rentals or 'cached streaming watch it now' where the content gets to the machine, but carries a shelf life. OK, that type of solution is likely years away.

The audio market is already flooded with low cost no-DRM alternatives (Yay!). Amazon.com's $.99 offering for MP3 downloads with no DRM is a great example. Maybe someday there will be the equivalent for movies.

Back to games - For games that can be played online or use online activation, a set of 32byte keys is an obvious solution. Atari's Neverwinter Nights uses this effectively. The first install requires the client to be connected to the internet - the keys are input and checked enabling the local and online functionality. Every time someone connects the game online, the keys are checked again to ensure that only one machine at that given time is using that given set of keys - perfect. Was this broken? Yes - annoyingly so since the crack generated some poor anonymous slob's CD keys to create the pirated copy and effectively locking out that anonymous other person. The pirates weren't stealing from the content provider - they were stealing from the content provider's legitimate customers.

DRM is not inherently evil. Heavy handed implementation of it (ex: Sony's root kit a while back) can be.

I realize that a lot of you are planning to use the console to play 'old ROMs'. Likely they are all going to be legally purchased ;-) nudge nudge. If the Pandora can somehow avoid a reputation as a pirate's console and attract content providers - all the better for all of us. Does this mean shelling out $$ for great software? I sure hope so.

 

[Monk]

Actually... the Pandora has a DRM system built in, even if it was not intentional.

Yeah, discussed at length elsewhere. Repeatedly.

All SD and SDHC cards have it. It would be perfectly feasible for an application to be shipped on an SDHC card - and require the insertion of that card in order to operate. Yes, everything can be hacked/cracked - but lets not.

There are problems with this, again discussed ad nausium elsewhere. A lot of people will want to download their content "NOW" (at time of purchase) and not receive it "some time in the future". They will also probably want to put many of their games on one large SD card rather than carry around a box or bag full of SD cards. SD card as a fixed non-copiable medium sucks, even if it IS considerably better than cartridges and CDs/DVDs of an earlier age. Backups, backups. Backups does NOT mean piracy, it means protecting your data from mishap. Including software that one owns.

And what happens when your SD card gets lost/stolen? Oh - do you buy the game again? I tried to get a copy of BBC BASIC the other month - the software has changed hands, original supplier gone bust, but I can buy the software again... (you'll be pleased to hear my original copy turned up, but not until after I told the author what I thought).

In an earlier post to this thread someone said something to the effect that the great thing about the Pandora is that once you buy it everything else is free.

Yeah, that irritated me a bit as well. I'd rather state it as something like "You don't NEED to buy anything else" whereas with most consoles you certainly do. That doesn't mean you'll get EVERYTHING for free, but maybe you'll WANT to buy a few programs if they're cheap AND good (there are numerous examples) or extra controllers or... whatever.

A simple system of using an activation code and requiring the console to be web connected on it's first execution would be inconvenient, but I could see it working in the long run.

Again, discussed at length and knocked down repeatedly. One major problem with it is that it either requires activation servers to remain in place perpetually (impossible) or that no Pandora ever dies thereby requiring a new activation code (impossible). Which means that an activation code that requires Internet authorisation is not software purchase, but software rental. I HATE software rental disguised as purchase. It's unethical, for starters. And rental should be bl**dy cheap by comparison with a purchase.

We're also talking about/in a community where nostalgia is an everyday topic. These people (mysefl included) love our old games. Why would we want to buy games that are actively DESIGNED to stop working in the future?

Put away your rapiers and eye patches.

Seriously? I have not checked the board rules so I don't KNOW the rules on swearing, which rather reduces my response range to that question to "I don't have an eye patch".

Yes, the above can be broken. Should it be?

No - it shouldn't be there to be broken.

IMHO doesn't matter. For many content providers, some sort of security mechanism is a prerequisite to providing content.

And for some customers, there is a prerequisite that we are innocent until proven guilty, and if we buy some software for our computers we want the software to do what we want. Not what someone else wants. I certainly don't buy software to spy on me on behalf of people I have paid money to.

The pirates weren't stealing from the content provider - they were stealing from the content provider's legitimate customers.

Therein lies part of the rub. From certain ways of examining the whole copy protection industry, the customer - the legitimate customer - is ALWAYS the one who is worse off. Sometimes (rarely) the developer suffers, but mostly it's the legitimate customer. Certainly not the pirates.

DRM is not inherently evil.

Yes, it is. DRM is inherantly evil. It inherantly restricts the usage by honest paying citizens, however lightly handled. There is lots of evidence to show it does little or nothing to stop the pirates.

I realize that a lot of you are planning to use the console to play 'old ROMs'. Likely they are all going to be legally purchased ;-) nudge nudge.

"ROMS" seems to be used so freely and inaccurately, but if you're going to include tape, floppy, and CD based games as used on the BBC Micro, spectrum, ZX81 etc. then - certainly, I have a shedload of them. Actually more like a partial loftload (since most are upstairs in the loft) plus of course numerous DOS games. I can't wait for a portable powerful enough to run my Windows games too. Does it opffend you that some people actually DO own the games they want to emulate? As in - REALLY? Crikey, I came across some of my old speccy and ZX81 games the other day. I wonder if they still play? (IIRC the only Spectrum we have is one of those new-fangled ones from Amstrad... I haven't even TRIED emulating a speccy on my desktop)

 

[Grench]

Yeah, discussed at length elsewhere. Repeatedly.

Thus my being brief when referencing it.

There are problems with this, again discussed ad nausium elsewhere. A lot of people will want to download their content "NOW" (at time of purchase) and not receive it "some time in the future". They will also probably want to put many of their games on one large SD card rather than carry around a box or bag full of SD cards. SD card as a fixed non-copiable medium sucks, even if it IS considerably better than cartridges and CDs/DVDs of an earlier age. Backups, backups. Backups does NOT mean piracy, it means protecting your data from mishap. Including software that one owns.

And what happens when your SD card gets lost/stolen? Oh - do you buy the game again? I tried to get a copy of BBC BASIC the other month - the software has changed hands, original supplier gone bust, but I can buy the software again... (you'll be pleased to hear my original copy turned up, but not until after I told the author what I thought).

This is where my idea of having OpenPandora directly sell registered 16GB and 32GB SDHC cards - anything you buy from their store could be linked to the card's presence. This is only if the content provider demands it - IMHO it is the content owner's decision. Being able to allow the content provider DRM if they choose might open things up a bit. If OpenPandora decide to sell games through a Pandorappstore or the like - they should leave it to the content owner whether or not they want DRM linked to the item being sold. I.e. if you develop a game and don't want DRM on it - more power to you. This is unlike the Apple store that, if I understand it right, places DRM on everything without choice.

Yeah, that irritated me a bit as well. I'd rather state it as something like "You don't NEED to buy anything else" whereas with most consoles you certainly do. That doesn't mean you'll get EVERYTHING for free, but maybe you'll WANT to buy a few programs if they're cheap AND good (there are numerous examples) or extra controllers or... whatever.

Cheap and good are relative terms that combine to mean 'high value'. I WANT someone to develop applications that are so good they make me grumble about spending $50 because I want them so badly. If someone develops something of that level of quality I would expect them to want to somehow protect it from unauthorized use.

Again, discussed at length and knocked down repeatedly. One major problem with it is that it either requires activation servers to remain in place perpetually (impossible) or that no Pandora ever dies thereby requiring a new activation code (impossible). Which means that an activation code that requires Internet authorisation is not software purchase, but software rental. I HATE software rental disguised as purchase. It's unethical, for starters. And rental should be bl**dy cheap by comparison with a purchase.

We're also talking about/in a community where nostalgia is an everyday topic. These people (mysefl included) love our old games. Why would we want to buy games that are actively DESIGNED to stop working in the future?

If the content providers demand DRM of some form, and we want their content, there will always have to be a compromise. If you have a better solution that doesn't drop the programmers and developers sweat and tears in the gutter for random people to pick up without paying for, I'm sure we'd all love to hear about it.

Seriously? I have not checked the board rules so I don't KNOW the rules on swearing, which rather reduces my response range to that question to "I don't have an eye patch".

Good for you. Kudos on keeping it civilized. Thank you.

No - it shouldn't be there to be broken.

Again, I see it as a personal property choice. The developers choose how and under what conditions they are willing to share the results of their labor. If they see it as necessary to have DRM + $$ or no DRM + $ or free, that is their choice. As long as OpenPandora does not require DRM for all programs on the console, it remains open. By allowing content providers to use DRM if the providers so choose, that makes it MORE open.

And for some customers, there is a prerequisite that we are innocent until proven guilty, and if we buy some software for our computers we want the software to do what we want. Not what someone else wants. I certainly don't buy software to spy on me on behalf of people I have paid money to.

Again, before opening a relationship with you, the owner of the content makes a decision about how they will market it. It is their property. When they sell/rent/other it with you, they are setting up terms and conditions that you either agree to (by buying it) or decline (by not buying it). If you choose not to, then they leave market share on the table and the opportunity for a 3rd party to create a similar product with licensing terms you can agree to. That's how an open and free market works anyway.

Therein lies part of the rub. From certain ways of examining the whole copy protection industry, the customer - the legitimate customer - is ALWAYS the one who is worse off. Sometimes (rarely) the developer suffers, but mostly it's the legitimate customer. Certainly not the pirates.

I agree with you on this. In a perfect world everyone would be a Boy Scout and DRM wouldn't be worth the effort.

Yes, it is. DRM is inherantly evil. It inherantly restricts the usage by honest paying citizens, however lightly handled. There is lots of evidence to show it does little or nothing to stop the pirates.

Right on the effect. But it leaves a trail of intent - that can sometimes catch the pirates. Very very rarely.

"ROMS" seems to be used so freely and inaccurately, but if you're going to include tape, floppy, and CD based games as used on the BBC Micro, spectrum, ZX81 etc. then - certainly, I have a shedload of them. Actually more like a partial loftload (since most are upstairs in the loft) plus of course numerous DOS games. I can't wait for a portable powerful enough to run my Windows games too. Does it opffend you that some people actually DO own the games they want to emulate? As in - REALLY? Crikey, I came across some of my old speccy and ZX81 games the other day. I wonder if they still play? (IIRC the only Spectrum we have is one of those new-fangled ones from Amstrad... I haven't even TRIED emulating a speccy on my desktop)

Wow. Nice shed. I have shelves full of old 5.25" floppies of DOS apps that I'm looking forward to fiddling with in DosBox on the Pandora myself. Fun stuff.

The crux of my argument is that a DRM solution should be made available to those content providers who demand it - It should NOT be required for all content. Give the property owners a choice so we don't have to leave any behind.

Cheers!

 

[juniorm33]

Snip

As been pointed out though, drm wouldn't stop pirates, in fact it probably gives them something to do instead of doing an emulator haha.
But I do except your point that they may want to use drm, regardless of how useful/useless it turns out to be in the end.

 

[WizardStan]

The crux of my argument is that a DRM solution should be made available to those content providers who demand it - It should NOT be required for all content. Give the property owners a choice so we don't have to leave any behind.

No. The argument should not be "DRM should be available", the argument should be "DRM should not be explicitly prevented." And it is not; there are a lot of ways they can go about implementing something, as has been brought up. If a developer wants to implement their own DRM in any one of these ways, that is their prerogative, just as it is my choice to not buy their product. That's how monetary democracy works: if enough people agree with me, they fail, and we start to see fewer DRM packages. So far, I am still a minority voter.
However, as soon as OpenPandora (the company, the devs) start considering how to implement a form of DRM for these developers, I no longer have a choice in the matter: resources are being diverted into a project I don't support, at which point, in order to remain steadfast to my own ideals, I would have to give up my Pandora or consider myself a hypocrite.

 

[Grench]

The crux of my argument is that a DRM solution should be made available to those content providers who demand it - It should NOT be required for all content. Give the property owners a choice so we don't have to leave any behind.

No. The argument should not be "DRM should be available", the argument should be "DRM should not be explicitly prevented." And it is not; there are a lot of ways they can go about implementing something, as has been brought up. If a developer wants to implement their own DRM in any one of these ways, that is their prerogative, just as it is my choice to not buy their product.

I thought the point of this discussion was how to set up a "Marketplace For Openpandora Commercial Games And Apps". The owners of high quality Commercial software will most likely expect Openpandora to provide the DRM management for applications that Openpandora licenses, ports and sells through any form of application store. I see two ways for this to happen, either through registration codes or utilizing the DRM handles on SDHC cards. If OpenPandora were to sell a branded OpenPandora Vault card that they maintain the keys to, then all software that required DRM and sold to you from the store could be linked to this one SDHC card. How to deal with lost cards - that is a question of service level. Maybe have the customer purchase a new card, but have all of the licensed DRM applications be transferred to the new card in the process. Open to scam, maybe - but if the DRM content shows up on a warez forum later they would at least know where the source was.

That's how monetary democracy works: if enough people agree with me, they fail, and we start to see fewer DRM packages. So far, I am still a minority voter.
However, as soon as OpenPandora (the company, the devs) start considering how to implement a form of DRM for these developers, I no longer have a choice in the matter: resources are being diverted into a project I don't support, at which point, in order to remain steadfast to my own ideals, I would have to give up my Pandora or consider myself a hypocrite.

Don't get me wrong - I don't particularly care for DRM from a consumer perspective. It's annoying - and I use my 80GB iPod as a big thumb drive because I have no intention of subscribing to Apple's lock 'em in DRM policies. However, I don't have an issue with purchasing a $50-$60 PC game that requires license codes or registration in order to use it.

Owning a Pandora in a world where OpenPandora offered some DRM for software from companies that required it won't make you or OpenPandora hypocrites. DRM isn't going away - big software and content providers won't let it. At least not until there are viable alternatives available without it. OpenOffice.org is a great example - It wasn't the presence of Linux that let me switch, it was the presence of OpenOffice.org. I now no longer use any MS OS at home on a regular basis. I have XP on a drive I can swap into my laptop just so I can load maps to my 5 year old Garmin iQue 3600 device. If someone makes a sub $200 package (including receiver and software with -good- street and terrain maps and turn by turn etc...) for the OpenPandora, I could wipe that XP drive. However, I'm also enough of a realist to know that anyone who is going to put out a $200 package like that is going to want to lock it down tight to protect their investment. To encourage development of that level of application, I believe there MUST be a DRM solution provided to developers to use if they choose. Point of note - TomTom is working with Apple to do just this application.

To keep it as manageable and unobtrusive as possible, I think having OpenPandora sell SDHC cards that function as software keys is the best solution. (For the technical - in my vision the encrypted code on the SDHC card would act as your public/private key) If you don't want to buy the high end commercial software, then you don't have to buy an SDHC vault card. By making the cards 16GB and/or 32GB you can put the DRM stuff AND whatever else you want to on it. Since the DRM software is checking against the card's DRM keys, the rest of the programs you put on it won't care.

Apple didn't build the iPhone to sell hardware. The OpenPandora team would have to be idealistic to a silly degree if they aren't going to sell programs and content for the Pandora. If they have dreams of getting others to provide big $$$ content for their platform, I don't see any way around having some form of DRM available for that kind of application.

Apple and Tapwave (RIP) both coded the DRM directly to a security code on the handheld. I'd rather see this linked to an SDHC card that I can pull out and put in another OpenPandora device to get my software back if I manage to drown the first one rather than have to get all of the content moved from device A's DRM to device B's DRM. Better to have the DRM on a removable card if it has to be there at all.

Oh, I also think that OpenPandora should get a bigger cut of the $$ from any software that they have to maintain DRM for to help cover the headache of migration for lost vault cards etc... Make the $$ big enough to act as a DRM disincentive for stuff that shouldn't need it anyway.

The above is all In My Humble Opinion - I don't think either of us is going to change the other person's mind on this. But its pleasant to discuss it politely with someone who can put forward a good argument.

Thanks!

 

[WizardStan]

The owners of high quality Commercial software will most likely expect Openpandora to provide the DRM management for applications that Openpandora licenses

No one expected Microsoft to implement their DRM for them*. Why should they expect OpenPandora to do it? If a company wants to restrict access to their game, they can go right ahead and do so, exactly the same as they can on a PC.

(*) specifically within the realm of gaming. Vista audio and video drivers implement the various hardware DRMs in an attempt to prevent copying of licensed movies and songs, which had the (un)intended effect of screwing over legitimate users. But within the gaming industry, each house has their own copy protection scheme, or they use one of the existing third party ones: Windows has no specific built in game locking mechanisms, and the Pandora should not either.

 

[Monk]

This post needs some trimming, so I'll try to cut to only what I want to reply to, leaving anything I agree with or that's been covered well enough by others (like WS) on the cutting room floor...

This is where my idea of having OpenPandora directly sell registered 16GB and 32GB SDHC cards - anything you buy from their store could be linked to the card's presence. This is only if the content provider demands it - IMHO it is the content owner's decision. Being able to allow the content provider DRM if they choose might open things up a bit. If OpenPandora decide to sell games through a Pandorappstore or the like - they should leave it to the content owner whether or not they want DRM linked to the item being sold. I.e. if you develop a game and don't want DRM on it - more power to you. This is unlike the Apple store that, if I understand it right, places DRM on everything without choice.

I admit it's an interesting idea, sortof, but still with some of the evil inherant in all forms of DRM deeply embedded within it - and I really do mean evil. For example, SD card failure. Or you buy a 16GB card from OP then end up with 17GB worth of games...so you need to buy two SD cards or buy a new 32GB card and arrange to be able to transfer the license and... you end up with OP having a very proprietary and essentially non-open scheme that is open to both abuse and simply cessation of service. Oh - and having to pay again if/when the card dies (which SHOULD be less likely on a card you almost never write to... unless of course they get written to a lot by the applications) and... it's a mess.

I'm with Stan in that there's a difference between allowing developers to use DRM if they so choose (and suffer the costs with seemingly no commercial benefits, so far as we can determine) and actively promoting a single core OpenPandora-provided DRM. I'm not QUITE as militant as Stan in as much as I'd still buy the Pandora (probably), but I would be quite unlikely to buy any of the DRM-protected software, just because it leaves a bad taste in the mouth. It also tells me something I don't like about the developer when they charge me (as part of the development costs of the game I buy) to limit my freedoms. to me, personally, it doesn't speak highly of their intelligence or their attitude. It's like... OK, it's like drug pushing IMHO. Drugs don't do my kids any good, and they cost money. I equate encouraging OpenPandora to get invovled in managing DRM for publishers very much to encouraging someone to become a drug pusher.

And I'm more easy going on the topic than some! LOL.

Cheap and good are relative terms that combine to mean 'high value'. I WANT someone to develop applications that are so good they make me grumble about spending $50 because I want them so badly. If someone develops something of that level of quality I would expect them to want to somehow protect it from unauthorized use.

I think Pandora MAY be the wrong platform for that, for a simple reason that my wife loves about my GP2X F-200. When we got it, I was shopping around for something that would let me play games anywher eI like - ideally some newish games and some older, emulated games. Favourites like "Frak!" and "Exile" and my beloved Asteroids game (it was called "Meteors" on the Beeb) and so on and so forth. A PSP was a serious contender, esp. with a new AVP game due out around that time IIRC, as was a DS I suspect, but we looked at the games available, the price of the console and games, and went for the GP2X. Not because it was cheaper outright (I honestly don't recall) but because we considered the cost of the console PLUS a years worth of games for each solution. Since for the GP2X I already had most of the games I intended to play, and the remaining software was free or cheap, the game costs were minimal. So it is with the Pandora. OpenPandora are being critisised elsewhere for producing a console which is too expensive, because it's being compared to a PS3 or a PSP or whatever - but OP don't knock out the hardware cheap to make their money back on the software (for the most part) - they are hoping to make profit on the hardware itself (eventually).

A Pandora plus games will cost me more than a GP2X plus games mostly because I hope there will be more commercial software for it (I'm tempted to buy a Pandora version of another of my old favourites, for example, QWAK). But the moment it starts looking like the games are the same cost as for a PSP, it's lost its competitive advantage (or a whole bunch of it) and really WOULD start to look expensive.

The Pandora convinced me it's worth $330 (or whatever I paid for it - including spare battery and dev fund donation and carry case and whatever else) partly because in essence I'm "pre-buying" some free software.

Yes, I made a blind dev fund donation too. It wasn't much, and it's to a good cause - people writing software for my hardware. This isn't primarily a "pirate site" AFAIK, but a homebrew/retro/emulation site (yes, I know a LOT of the emulation must be on dodgy ground, but I can't be the ONLY boy scout left in town!). To me, the very existence of the dev fund - and that multiple people have donated to it - spells out a huge difference between this community and an "eMule" or "torrent" or (whatever) community. This isn't about "file sharing" or any other way of avoiding saying "piracy" - it's about some smashing retro gameplay (before gloss took over from gameplay, for a few years) and homebrew. Homebrew... where many people in "the biz" started out.

Undoubtedly there is a significant percentage here that download ROMs illegally - but there's also, I truly believe, a significant percentage of folk who "do the right thing" - and if "paying forward" by donating money before you even know what software will result isn't a sign of a difference between here and a file sharing community, I don't know what would be!

I am not, for example, entirely sure that a BBC emulator will be available for the Pandora from day one. If it isn't, I shall be sad for a bit, but that's life.

If the content providers demand DRM of some form, and we want their content, there will always have to be a compromise. If you have a better solution that doesn't drop the programmers and developers sweat and tears in the gutter for random people to pick up without paying for, I'm sure we'd all love to hear about it.

No need for a compromise - and vendor who insists on DRM is free to develop it. But if you want an alternative...

Not a problem. Based on numerous bits of research I've read over the years (and being in the "IP industry" myself), quite simply, don't develop, buy in, or use DRM. This will lose very few if any sales, cut costs, and so increase profitability. Unless your game appeals to people like Stan and I, in which case they'll also get extra sales which means even MORE profitability. Their products will also be AT LEAST as stable/reliable, AT LEAST as fast, and take AT MOST the same time to download and AT MOST the same amount of hard drive space to store... but from experience they will tend to be more stable, faster, and smaller.

That's simply it. The whole solution. Don't do dru... erm, DRM. They can embed my like a watermark into the binary they send me if they like. Easier still, they can provide me with a "key" which acts agsint my name to unlock the game (and each "key" works only agains the customers name as provided by the software vendor, to avoid duplication) and so on and so forth. I have no problem with that if they want to - it might even help catch the occasional pirate. Provided it's robust and doesn't rely on something that will later be removed (like an activation server) or install rootkits or the like we should be fine. But time and time again it has been demonstrated that DRM (the new fancy and extended version of Copy Prevention) does not prevent piracy. It does not stop criminals. It does NOT excuse treating customers as criminals first, assumed guilty because they want to pay for software.

They can pay me half what they save in not using DRM and I'd be a happy man

Again, I see it as a personal property choice. The developers choose how and under what conditions they are willing to share the results of their labor. If they see it as necessary to have DRM + $$ or no DRM + $ or free, that is their choice. As long as OpenPandora does not require DRM for all programs on the console, it remains open. By allowing content providers to use DRM if the providers so choose, that makes it MORE open.

I'm a TAD confused because software authors can use or not use DRM as they see fit. They don't need us (or OpenPandora) to tell them to do it, or provide a way, or promote it as something we should embrace/allow/aide and abet. The built-in SD DRM measure is available to them regardless, as is the option to write their own or pay for some of the commercial rubbish. I agree completely that it's their choice to do so - but I see no need for OpenPandora to get their hands dirty with it. They don't have to sully themselves with it, at all!

Therein lies part of the rub. From certain ways of examining the whole copy protection industry, the customer - the legitimate customer - is ALWAYS the one who is worse off. Sometimes (rarely) the developer suffers, but mostly it's the legitimate customer. Certainly not the pirates.

I agree with you on this. In a perfect world everyone would be a Boy Scout and DRM wouldn't be worth the effort.

But since you seem to agree that it's usually the legitimate customer who suffers (and I HAVE lost some "Imagine" titles for the speccy due to inability to backup the tapes before they died, and lost work due to crappy PACE DRM software killing the app I was producing work with) how is DRM ever "worth the effort"?

Oh - and I DID join the Boy Scouts as a kid. I think I went for about a week before I decided it wasn't for me they were too clean and squeeky (actually, oddly enough, it was the first church visit that did the boy scouts in for me!)

Yes, it is. DRM is inherantly evil. It inherantly restricts the usage by honest paying citizens, however lightly handled. There is lots of evidence to show it does little or nothing to stop the pirates.

Right on the effect. But it leaves a trail of intent - that can sometimes catch the pirates. Very very rarely.

You can probably do that without running any DRM software. Details would likely be as specific and complex as for DRM, but there's a huge difference between marking files to catch thieves and running software on my computer that is to my detriment. But even if we forgoe it, I don't find "Software House X's" ability to catch a pirate very, very rarely to be worth DRMing every one of their legitimate customers.

Wow. Nice shed. I have shelves full of old 5.25" floppies of DOS apps that I'm looking forward to fiddling with in DosBox on the Pandora myself. Fun stuff.

I can't find my 3.5" "Lemmings" floppies yet. I've found some 5.25" ones (the box reveals it came with both!) but I don't have a 5.25" drive to hand. I'll sort it though, eventually! Probably by installing a 5.25" drive. There should be a copy of "Stellar 7" around somewhere too though... more hunting to do! I've probably got FAR too much stuff in the loft to be honest - it's a bit of an Alladin's cave full of books, software, computers (ones too old to have in the main house based on size/functionality ratio) jigsaw puzzles, packing material. Well, it can't ALL be good stuff!

The crux of my argument is that a DRM solution should be made available to those content providers who demand it - It should NOT be required for all content. Give the property owners a choice so we don't have to leave any behind.

No - no, it shouldn't. No-one (least of all OpenPandora) should spend time developming a DRM solution for game vendors - they are free to develop it for themselves, for any platform. On the Pandora, they can use the SD DRM if they want to (and lose sales to people who are anti-DRM - which I warrant is a fair proportion of this crowd, at present). Most of the titles you'd recommend as good example sof "WOW" games - do they happen to be PC titles? Who developed the DRM? I'm pretty sure it wasn't IBM, or even the PC manufacturer. Probably either the software house that wrote the game, or someone like PACE. Who sell DRM products like Interlok, that was used so successfully in the "Poser 5" product that customers were downloading cracked copies so that they could use Poser - because the DRM made it quite flakey. DRM was removed from Poser 5 (and AFAIK hasn't been reintroduced to the product line since) as a "stability upgrade".

 

[WizardStan]

I'm not QUITE as militant as Stan in as much as I'd still buy the Pandora (probably)

Oh, I'd probably still keep mine as well, I'd just feel a little guilty about it. Like finding out your favourite soda brand donates to a charity or cause you don't agree with: do you stop drinking it, or do you suck up the fact that 0.00001 cents of every can you drink goes to help people you don't agree with? My dignity is worth more than 0.00001 cents, so while I'll feel bad about it, I wouldn't give it up, but I'd consider it, same as I would if OpenPandora announced they were actively working on a DRM scheme.
Of course, there is one caveat: if OpenPandora themselves license a game, and choose to (or as part of the license, must) implement a DRM scheme. In this case, they are developers of the game, and (in theory) using the (future) profits from the game to implement that DRM. I can be (reasonably) comfortable that the money paid for a Pandora did not go to directly support the DRM scheme, or so I could convince myself.

 

[Monk]

Oh, I'd probably still keep mine as well, I'd just feel a little guilty about it. Like finding out your favourite soda brand donates to a charity or cause you don't agree with: do you stop drinking it, or do you suck up the fact that 0.00001 cents of every can you drink goes to help people you don't agree with? My dignity is worth more than 0.00001 cents, so while I'll feel bad about it, I wouldn't give it up, but I'd consider it, same as I would if OpenPandora announced they were actively working on a DRM scheme.
Of course, there is one caveat: if OpenPandora themselves license a game, and choose to (or as part of the license, must) implement a DRM scheme. In this case, they are developers of the game, and (in theory) using the (future) profits from the game to implement that DRM. I can be (reasonably) comfortable that the money paid for a Pandora did not go to directly support the DRM scheme, or so I could convince myself.

My apologies for overstating your case then

To be honest, I feel a bit dirty just discussing it. I've seen, FAR too often, how program developers (not just games, sadly) get sucked into believing it's "A Good Thing (TM)" and I've seen it only do harm to the actual application developers and the end users. I've never once seen copy-prevention techniques help an end user (the guy footing the bill) and very rarely the application developer (though it does have to be said that sometimes things happen in the world that I do not, personally, witness). I was shocked in my post above at how closely I can relate DRM to drug pushing - there's that same greed on the part of the pusher, and the promise of good things that ultimately lead to ruin - financially and otherwise. I hadn't realised that DRM had impacted me THAT badly over the years, to view it quite as distastefully as I do.

And I didn't even mention the whole "graffitti" aspect to it. There will be people who want to pirate software, not because they want to pirate the software, but to show how clever they are. DRM, to them, is more of an enticement than any kind of threat or obstacle. It screams "challenge!".

There are some techniques I'll tollerate - having a pass/key combo is annoying but a sign of the times, especailly when we're talking about electronic delivery of binary goods. but locking software to hardware (and I don't see locking to an SD card as being an improvement on locking to a specific Pandora, personally) is bad. Evil. Locking to an external resource like an activation server on the net is even worse

There are plenty of programs on the net for Windows that have their own registration/serial-no/whatever system - I REALLY don't see a need or a use to centralise a single Pandora-specific scheme that will make it easier for crims to crack because every DRMed program uses the same trick.

 

[Grench]

I'm with Stan in that there's a difference between allowing developers to use DRM if they so choose (and suffer the costs with seemingly no commercial benefits, so far as we can determine) and actively promoting a single core OpenPandora-provided DRM. I'm not QUITE as militant as Stan in as much as I'd still buy the Pandora (probably), but I would be quite unlikely to buy any of the DRM-protected software, just because it leaves a bad taste in the mouth. It also tells me something I don't like about the developer when they charge me (as part of the development costs of the game I buy) to limit my freedoms. to me, personally, it doesn't speak highly of their intelligence or their attitude. It's like... OK, it's like drug pushing IMHO. Drugs don't do my kids any good, and they cost money. I equate encouraging OpenPandora to get invovled in managing DRM for publishers very much to encouraging someone to become a drug pusher.

No need for a compromise - and vendor who insists on DRM is free to develop it. But if you want an alternative...

I'm a TAD confused because software authors can use or not use DRM as they see fit. They don't need us (or OpenPandora) to tell them to do it, or provide a way, or promote it as something we should embrace/allow/aide and abet. The built-in SD DRM measure is available to them regardless, as is the option to write their own or pay for some of the commercial rubbish. I agree completely that it's their choice to do so - but I see no need for OpenPandora to get their hands dirty with it. They don't have to sully themselves with it, at all!

The crux of my argument is that a DRM solution should be made available to those content providers who demand it - It should NOT be required for all content. Give the property owners a choice so we don't have to leave any behind.

No - no, it shouldn't. No-one (least of all OpenPandora) should spend time developming a DRM solution for game vendors - they are free to develop it for themselves, for any platform. On the Pandora, they can use the SD DRM if they want to (and lose sales to people who are anti-DRM - which I warrant is a fair proportion of this crowd, at present). Most of the titles you'd recommend as good example sof "WOW" games - do they happen to be PC titles? Who developed the DRM? I'm pretty sure it wasn't IBM, or even the PC manufacturer. Probably either the software house that wrote the game, or someone like PACE. Who sell DRM products like Interlok, that was used so successfully in the "Poser 5" product that customers were downloading cracked copies so that they could use Poser - because the DRM made it quite flakey. DRM was removed from Poser 5 (and AFAIK hasn't been reintroduced to the product line since) as a "stability upgrade".

All of the above arguments seem to assume that a "Pandorappstore" would simply be posting links to the owner's of "Commercial Games And Apps" web sites for the content owner to sell directly to you. IMHO this is not a likely scenario.

Tapwave handled the DRM for items it sold in it's store (albeit few). Microsoft DOES handle DRM for titles that it licenses the rights to from other companies then sells direct. Pitfall is a good example of this. Apple handles the DRM for items in it's app store. Sony handles the DRM for items in it's download catalog. Palm handles the DRM for items for the Pre. The precedent has been set. If you plan to be the point of sale and download for electronic delivery, you also get the DRM headache.

I'm working under the assumption that having a "Pandorappstore" with big name titles would be the result of OpenPandora cutting a deal with the content owners to receive the source code, recompile it for ARM with controls specific to the Pandora console, package it and sell it under license. In this case OpenPandora would likely be responsible for handling any DRM that is required to get that license. Tapwave did much the same thing with TonyHawk, Doom II, Neverwinter Nights*, Tomb Raider* and others. The games were properly adapted to the console, ran well AND people paid real money for them with the DRM handled through Tapwave (RIP). (* = did not see release before Tapwave died)

I guess I'd rather see OpenPandora have an option for DRM rather than simply taking a pass on good stuff that it -could- do if there were a DRM option. I see SDHC cards as providing a key into that option without forcing it on those who don't want it. I also see this as a critical key if we're going to have any chance of this console going from 10,000 to 250,000 units based on the perceived value of the applications available for it.

Homebrew is good fun stuff. Take a good look at the companies that took Homebrew and got big on it though and the majority of them are using DRM of some form - even if the first 3 levels (or whatever) are freeware. Activation codes, etc... Having homebrew apps in a Pandorappstore is only part of the solution though. Some kinds of software require big production houses, large amounts of content, cost big $$$$$$$ to produce and demand $$$ prices - for those lack of a DRM option is an instant death.

So, no, I don't think we need a cluttered room full of DRM. I do think that if the OpenPandora team is going to take what they built seriously and want to be the sales point for big name software to go on that console - then they're going to have to give the content owners assurances that can't be made without it. Because those content owners are not going to just port these things over to an unknown console without DRM just to see what happens.

 

[Bagera]

The problem I see is that the Pandora is such a small platform (not formfactor) that developers won't even bother if the OP team don't help them. That said I'm not sure it will be worth it. I don't expect many great games being ported anyway.
Did I mention I'm an optimist

 

[Grench]

The owners of high quality Commercial software will most likely expect Openpandora to provide the DRM management for applications that Openpandora licenses

No one expected Microsoft to implement their DRM for them*. Why should they expect OpenPandora to do it? If a company wants to restrict access to their game, they can go right ahead and do so, exactly the same as they can on a PC.

Microsoft was not recompiling, repackaging and selling those applications under license from it's own application store. If you want to wait for premium content providers to recompile 5 year old packages to fit our specific device, I hope you don't hold your breath.

(*) specifically within the realm of gaming. Vista audio and video drivers implement the various hardware DRMs in an attempt to prevent copying of licensed movies and songs, which had the (un)intended effect of screwing over legitimate users. But within the gaming industry, each house has their own copy protection scheme, or they use one of the existing third party ones: Windows has no specific built in game locking mechanisms, and the Pandora should not either.

This I can agree with you completely on. The whole video drivers, HDMI, locking out capture from audio card drivers, is a cluster F. PC hardware manufacturers should be ashamed of themselves for doing it. Their end customers didn't want it - but they did it anyway.

It IS a great example of DRM going over the top. I hate that I have to re-plug in my HDMI cable between my Samsung BluRay player and my Samsung TV because they missed a handshake and made my TV go blank. Way overkill - and of course ineffective.

I'm not talking about removing capability from the device through driver castration. I'm talking about giving the option to the content provider to use a key based DRM solution or not based on purchase through a centralized application store.

Yes, it is entirely possible to go over the top on DRM. Personally I trust the OpenPandora team to do this within reason if it can get us great content as a result.

 

[Monk]

All of the above arguments seem to assume that a "Pandorappstore" would simply be posting links to the owner's of "Commercial Games And Apps" web sites for the content owner to sell directly to you.

Not one does.

IMHO this is not a likely scenario.

Hehee! We agree on something!

If you plan to be the point of sale and download for electronic delivery, you also get the DRM headache.

There are examples of that, but I do not beleive that it necessarily follows. It's a little like...

Nellie is pink.
Nellie is an elephant.
Elephants are pink.

The conclusion you're arrived at isn't supported by the stated facts. It's not disproved or disputed by them, but not proved by them either. There's plenty of DRM on physical media sold through Game (who don't get invovled with the DRM) and HMV (who don't get involved) and... and so on. IMHO the store does not HAVE to manage the DRM.

I'm working under the assumption that having a "Pandorappstore" with big name titles would be the result of OpenPandora cutting a deal with the content owners to receive the source code, recompile it for ARM with controls specific to the Pandora console, package it and sell it under license. In this case OpenPandora would likely be responsible for handling any DRM that is required to get that license. Tapwave did much the same thing with TonyHawk, Doom II, Neverwinter Nights*, Tomb Raider* and others. The games were properly adapted to the console, ran well AND people paid real money for them with the DRM handled through Tapwave (RIP). (* = did not see release before Tapwave died)

Note - not a shining example of success either, then!

You seem, very much, to be seeing the Pandora as exactly what OpenPandora keep saying it is NOT - a PSP competitor/killer, with OpenPandora as a SONY competitor. Would they like to be in that position? Sure, why not? But they've specifically stated they aren't there, and aren't aiming at that (at least right now). There are things they could do to improve their chances and sales and therfore future, sure, but you seem convinced that to be a success they have to be a poor SONY-alike rather than a better GamePark-alike. To me, that sounds like to be a huge success in the financial world one has to be a "Lehman Brothers" clone. Not only are there other avenues to go down and be a success, but emulating a rotten system isn't necessarily the best way forward.

I REALLY love some of the so-called indie games I've been seeing (not "mere homebrew" IMHO) and indeed many "Good Old Games" that I've been seeing re-released. For me, the Pandora knocks the spots off a PSP the day it arrives... to make the Pandora more like the other consoles could only be a retrograde step. DRM is extremely popular in the games software industry, and passing around toxic debts is still extremely populr in the financial market. That doesn't make either a good idea.

I guess I'd rather see OpenPandora have an option for DRM rather than simply taking a pass on good stuff that it -could- do if there were a DRM option.

Are there any software developers who: cannot write their own DRM, use the existing SD card DRM, Or buy in some DRM and (crucially) would bring such *terrific* new content to the Pandora? I struggle to imagine that the only way we'd get these packages is if OpenPandora provide the DRM for them.

I see SDHC cards as providing a key into that option without forcing it on those who don't want it. I also see this as a critical key if we're going to have any chance of this console going from 10,000 to 250,000 units based on the perceived value of the applications available for it.

This I think is where we actually part, as I don't see it as critical at all. I actually see it as a negative rather than a positive. It's based on a flawed philosophy and is, well, actually evil. We seem to see Pandoras as fundamentally different things, and the Pandora marketplace as fundamentally different, at a very basic level. Where you see Pandora as "another game device like the PSP and GameCube and iPhone", I see it as an extention of the Open movement, pushing into a (comparatively) new space, one not yet occupied by SONY and Nintendo and Apple and Microsoft. I see DRM not as something that it has to have for success, but as a selling point for it NOT having (or at least, using).

Homebrew is good fun stuff. Take a good look at the companies that took Homebrew and got big on it though and the majority of them are using DRM of some form - even if the first 3 levels (or whatever) are freeware.

I'm trying to think of the companies that provided DRM for their software vendors and got big on it. Apple and Microsoft were already big beforehand, for example. Tapwave(RIP) don't seem to be a good example. These are the people you are suggesting OpenPandora equate to/behave like... but they didn't get big by/for producing DRM for other companies. Stem, presumably?

Having homebrew apps in a Pandorappstore is only part of the solution though. Some kinds of software require big production houses, large amounts of content, cost big $$$$$$$ to produce and demand $$$ prices - for those lack of a DRM option is an instant death.

You mentioned OpenOffice - I imagine that has a largeish production house? And no DRM? Or Smith Micro / the current owners of a program called "Poser"? Poser had DRM in version 5. The company that wrote and sold that version went bust (like Tapwave did?) and Poser has serial numbers, but no longer any DRM code hidden in it. Smith Micro isn't a one man band AFAIK.

The point I'm trying to get across seems similar to the one people failed to get across to the banks until the crisis hit, and one I'm not sure you'll really "get" since you made the statement "DRM is not evil". No software project needs DRM, except a DRM project. That is the only project that benefits from DRM. Moving headlong, willfully, deliberately into that market is like reviewing the financial crisis and then deciding to offer NINJA mortgages to the buying public as your first financial market product offering.

Or... it's a bit like saying to someone involved in Ubuntu - "Hey, you know what? No-one will take you seriously until you operate just like Microsoft does". I'm sure Canonical feel that their path is BETTER than the Microsoft path, at least for them right now. I beleive that a non-DRM path is better than a DRM path, and I beleive that indie games are actaully better than big content-heavy all gloss and no heart/innovation games from larger houses.

I beleive that OpenPandora can do better by being the best OpenPandora that they can be, rather than being a poorer SONY.

 

[Monk]

The problem I see is that the Pandora is such a small platform (not formfactor) that developers won't even bother if the OP team don't help them.

There is that. The whole chicken/egg scenario - will the Pandora be a success without big software names? Will big software names port their products over to the Pandora unless it's a success? The Pandora must be the chicken AND the egg!

That said I'm not sure it will be worth it. I don't expect many great games being ported anyway.

Oh, I don't know. It depends on what you think is a "great game". In the last year or so, my son has discovered various "great" games - from he Doom games to World Of Goo to Quake 1 to Galcon to Judge Dredd to Lego Chess to Lego Star Wars to The Incredible Machine to ~Heretic to QWAK and... what makes a "great game" is extremely flexible, and some of them have already been ported to the Pandora

Others (like QWAK) I have high hopes will be ported to the Pandora, although that isn't one of the huge sprawling "heavy content" games, more one of those "fun to play" games. Still great. I must checkout the website again and see if there's been any change.

Did I mention I'm an optimist

Pfft, optimisim is overrated. An optimist goes through life being constantly dissapointed that things didn't turn out as well as they'd expected. A pessimist goes trhough life getting frequent pleasant surprises