Marketplace For Openpandora Commercial Games And Apps

[mvickers03]

Yeah, i agree.. any console or OS that is open, can have some one who is clever enough circumvent the protection.. thats why PC software sales is down the pan. just saying the crappy protection used in DRM, AACS or what ever other protection is out there can be used on the pandora even if it can be reversed in good time!

look at windows 7 for example. thats been cracked already and its not even out yet!

 

[renwils]

I didnt say windows.. but please tell me why its not open platform?

When the source code of the OS is completely transparent, most software DRM schemes would be useless. Windows, despite the name, is quite opaque.

 

[mvickers03]

I didnt say windows.. but please tell me why its not open platform?

When the source code of the OS is completely transparent, most software DRM schemes would be useless. Windows, despite the name, is quite opaque.

Really?? i though that DRM protected tracks wouldn't play on anything apart from a DRM enabled player unless it was tampered with first

 

[Brandon72196]

I didnt say windows.. but please tell me why its not open platform?

When the source code of the OS is completely transparent, most software DRM schemes would be useless. Windows, despite the name, is quite opaque.

Really?? i though that DRM protected tracks wouldn't play on anything apart from a DRM enabled player unless it was tampered with first

He's saying that if the product has its source code out, people will find ways to hinder the DRM because they have access to all the code. Windows, and most games for windows, are not open source.
EDIT: But they still find ways to do it anyway h34r:

 

[droneb]

heh, then the whole thread goes to the dump.

if you really want to make a commercial games platform you will def need some kind of code copy protection or theres will be just some first sales until someone post the code over the net and every one else is going to download it and ...

bla bla bla.

then someone yells i wont do it!, then ill reply but someone will, bla bla bla. then after so much bla's i believe we will end with me abandoning the idea of any comercial games for the panda and the only type of games that are going to be made are either freeware abandonware or opensource ones.


ye yeah i time leapt thru time to avoid spendind that much time, unlucky for me that i cant leap more to the future to get my panda quickier

 

[WizardStan]

heh, then the whole thread goes to the dump.

if you really want to make a commercial games platform you will def need some kind of code copy protection or theres will be just some first sales until someone post the code over the net and every one else is going to download it and ...

bla bla bla.

then someone yells i wont do it!, then ill reply but someone will, bla bla bla. then after so much bla's i believe we will end with me abandoning the idea of any comercial games for the panda and the only type of games that are going to be made are either freeware abandonware or opensource ones.


ye yeah i time leapt thru time to avoid spendind that much time, unlucky for me that i cant leap more to the future to get my panda quickier

The World of Goo guys released with no DRM. They are proud to have released with no DRM. They flaunt their total lack of DRM as a marketing strategy. They are making money hand over fist!

 

[renwils]

heh, then the whole thread goes to the dump.

if you really want to make a commercial games platform you will def need some kind of code copy protection or theres will be just some first sales until someone post the code over the net and every one else is going to download it and ...

bla bla bla.

then someone yells i wont do it!, then ill reply but someone will, bla bla bla. then after so much bla's i believe we will end with me abandoning the idea of any comercial games for the panda and the only type of games that are going to be made are either freeware abandonware or opensource ones.


ye yeah i time leapt thru time to avoid spendind that much time, unlucky for me that i cant leap more to the future to get my panda quickier

I think there is a significant portion of this community who would buy a commercial game simply to support the idea. Games that run natively in linux have traditionally done relatively well(for linux, that is.) See Penumbra, or Neverwinter Nights. Since DRM is usually cracked within hours of release for PC, it ends up more as a deterrent to purchase than to piracy.

 

[Esn]

then after so much bla's i believe we will end with me abandoning the idea of any comercial games for the panda and the only type of games that are going to be made are either freeware abandonware or opensource ones.

I know companies that are releasing games online without DRM (for example, this one). But if you're that worried about it, follow the WoW model (in which "pirates" have nothing to play without paying you, anyway).

Anyway, you can be sure that any discussion of pirating Pandora games will be prohibited on all of the community forums. It was the same for the GP32 and the GP2X.

Another line of defense: make the name of your game really generic, so that people who try to find copies on Google won't have any luck (and even if they search for "Pandora" as well, "Pandora" is also a very generic name, so they probably still won't find anything).

But really, I think that most people here would agree that it's in bad taste to pirate from small developers from your own community. That's biting the hand that feeds you.

 

[droneb]

heh i knew about that proyect on the olde days of tower of goo 27.3 Meters! ahoo,chackmate,weeh.

but if you take into account the wii ver then you would get a somehow 3rd party copy protection (or some may misscall it DRM, because DRM is more than just Copy protect) or maybe just the embedded idea so no Copy protection needed.
and i remember some stats that the wii ver was much more popular than the PC ver(i will post that if i see it again).

anyway, if you really want a commercial place for a (actual)small comunity and you even want it copy protection free.
i want to see it happen then ill believe it.

PD: yes DRM its not only CopyProtection im only interested on CopyProtection, because DRM Suc*s

 

[Esn]

anyway, if you really want a commercial place for a (actual)small comunity and you even want it copy protection free.

You could start with the history of this very forum.

I'm not sure whether GP2X games were copy protection free or not (I wasn't around during that period). But I do know that non-boxed GP32 games were sold online in a central store by Gamepark, and they DID have copy protection. The copy protection didn't stop the existence of certain sites that hosted cracked versions of the games. However, discussion of this within the community was strictly prohibited (every so often, new members would start threads about it and promptly have them locked), and I remember that there was a general consensus that not paying for these games was not cool (because we all wanted Gamepark to succeed... it was a community). Out of curiosity, I even tried looking for one of those rumoured warez sites on Google once and didn't find it (I did find one later, years after the GP32 era was over).

My point here is that what really protected the games was not the copy protection, but the will of the community to play fair. Small communities are more likely than big ones to be responsible. It's the same with music. When you're "stealing" a game from a big, rich company, you may think that the company will still be rich even without your money. With a small company, you're more aware that they're dependent on you, and conscience comes into it. Especially if you're in the same forum with the developers and feel like you know them.

 

[danielliu88888]

Do you realize you stealing games effects us ALL? That GamePark can barely afford to stay in bussiness as it is, and does so only by our continued support? And if people download pirated copies of the games, they lose out on potential customers, putting them at even more of a loss, until eventually they cannot even hold their doors open and the GP32 becomes another discontinued handheld? Do you realize that? This isnt Nintendo we are talking about. A company that can take a big hit in sales and still push on. This is a small company that operates out of korea that is trying to stay alive.

A company where EVERY SINGLE purchase counts. As does every single loss of a potential customer because of piracy.

A company that is trying to get bigger and do more and has a schedualed europe launch to try and expand so they can provide us with more and better games and accessories. How do you think it looks to potential game developers, seeing pirated games floating arround unchecked? You think it makes them feel safe and secure in making more commercial games? You are not only screwing us when you download pirated GP32 games, you are also screwing yourself.

found it

 

[Esn]

@Xian Long: Yes, that's what I mean.

It's not like we had a very great respect for copyright laws - it was an open secret that most people used illegally-downloaded ROMS to play classic games on the GP32 emulators (even though linking to sites was forbidden). But it wasn't okay to do that for new, native games.

The vikings pillaged other countries, not their own homelands.

 

[El Jefe]

I guess steam does it in the best way...
checking the game online every time it is played...
and that is a pain in the ass...
a pain in the ass that has still been hacked...
DRM = not possible.
unless of course you make your software hella expensive and make people apply to buy it, like boujou (10 grand).

 

[valhalla]

Secure DRM would be impossible to implement on an open platform anyway.

Secure DRM would be impossible to implement anyway.

 

[lulzfish]

OP: Let's make a nice software repository
Forums: Dude DRM is not even possible b/c the Pandora is meant to be open so someone will always break it

wut

 

[El Jefe]

OP: Let's make a nice software repository
Forums: Dude DRM is not even possible b/c the Pandora is meant to be open so someone will always break it

OP: Let's make a nice app store, so people will make commercial games despite the fact that there are only 3800 potential buyers(no issues with this at all :rolleyes: )
Forums: Dude DRM is not even possible on closed source projects headed up by software giants, in a place where the market is so much smaller, and the hack savvyness per capita is probably much higher, it would be downright ridiculous to attempt to make money off software.
Fix'd

 

[Monk]

heh, then the whole thread goes to the dump.

if you really want to make a commercial games platform you will def need some kind of code copy protection or theres will be just some first sales until someone post the code over the net and every one else is going to download it and ...

bla bla bla.

The World of Goo guys released with no DRM. They are proud to have released with no DRM. They flaunt their total lack of DRM as a marketing strategy. They are making money hand over fist!

I am one of the people they made some of that money from. Pirated copies were certainly floating around the net before I bought - before I even heard of the game (it was THIS forum that alerted me to it. Well, this forum's predecessor).

I still bought it. I'm greatly enjoying the Good Old Games site too. The Indie games I've noticed in the last year (and trialed, and bought some of) were IMHO well worth buying.

I guess steam does it in the best way...
checking the game online every time it is played...
and that is a pain in the ass...

They do it best and it's a pain in the ass? Says something about DRM.

Secure DRM would be impossible to implement on an open platform anyway.

Secure DRM would be impossible to implement anyway.

Glad I didn't have to be the first to day that, but, yeah. And this debate has been going on for longer than the Internet has been globally popular - I remember when "Copy Prevention" (NOT "Copyright Protection", "Copy Prevention", which is not ACTUALLY the same thing, exactly) was a loud angry nasty tangle of debate for the ZX Spectrum circa 1982.

 

[juniorm33]

Think I'll add my 2pence to this.
DRM/Copy protection will be broken this is pretty much guaranteed.
If the software is
1. good
2. reasonably priced (cheap haha)
3. easy to get and pay for
then I think most people wouldn't have any problems paying for it.
A lot of companies try to fool people and themselves into believing otherwise. Like the assumption that if someone couldn't pirate the software it automatically means they would buy it and use it. No it doesn't mean that, just as much chance that they wouldn't buy it and would just do without.
Happen to read think it was a week or so ago about I think it was a Polish games development house who are against DRM, was interesting to hear their take on it, can't remember where I read it now though.....

Any reason why the PND Manager can't be expanded to take payments dflemstr, from what I've seen it's pretty well structured?

 

[Tenuki]

I see this discussion is mainly focused on "why DRM is bad" and "why DRM is impossible" on OpenPandora. This direction does not seem to be very fruitful so far. However two mentioned things might be important: community is small (someone mentioned ~3800 members) and have it's own sort-of "honor code".

I think most of you would agree that expanding community is a good thing. Cheaper to mass produce the hardware, more variety for software, support the open source platform idea. But how to do that? Creators of the console may work hard to add better hardware to the console, work on design - and I can only applaud current results. Yet it's not hardware what sells in the end - it's software. Hardware is useless to you unless you have something fun or productive to do with it.

My guess (I'm still new to these consoles - bear with me) current community is mainly hackers and noobs(in a good sense this time, read as "future hackers"). That is mainly people who can compile or port a good software from somewhere else and make it available for Pandora and others who will enjoy learning the console, but will be able to contribute little to the richness of available software for now. Currently I'm failing to find professional developers interested in the Pandora and that's my point where expansion of community (and consoles) stops. There might be some exceptions, but they are exactly that - exceptions.

I think that this hardware is too cool to die (be forgotten) in hands of less than 4000 people. I'm not expert in the field, but let me suggest two solutions that come to my mind:
1. The only marketplace of commercial software for OpenPandora. A place which would be either implemented or heavily supported by creators of the console. Significant percentage of software price would go back to console creators further supporting the whole idea. You may look at it as support to the creators while getting something (as a bonus) in return. This is unlikely to work if the marketplace is implemented by someone else. Each piece of software must be very cheap (~£1, ~1.5$) so people would not buy it if only they don't need it.
2. Final price of the console could be slightly increased, say by £10 ($15) to create a budget for professional software. Anyone can develop software (including porting and compiling) and put on the marketplace. Everyone by downloading and rating system could vote which software is more useful and more popular this way selecting percentage who deserves to receive more from the accumulated software budget. Again consider this as a competition where creators of better software wins.

Again, my main point of this thread is "how to attract professional developers" and not "how to slap someone who got something illegally". I have suggested a couple of ideas above, I'm sure you may refine them or maybe (likely) suggest something even more viable.

 

[Rockthesmurf]

2. Final price of the console could be slightly increased, say by £10 ($15) to create a budget for professional software.

Like the developer fund that I and many others have alreacy contributed too when purchasing our Pandora? Or something completely different?

Steve