Marketplace For Openpandora Commercial Games And Apps

[Prometheus]

I can't add a lot here, as Monk and WizardStan have summed up similar thoughts to my own most eloquently, but I do have a couple of things to say, if I may.

Firstly;

(yes, I know a LOT of the emulation must be on dodgy ground, but I can't be the ONLY boy scout left in town!)

You certainly aren't the only one. Though I think in my case I'd have to re-word that to "Girl Guide" instead. :lol: (I wrote a big long article and a brief follow-up about my point of view on this stuff on my not-updated-very-often sig-blog a while ago. )

Also, I'm rather drawn to services like GOG.com - I bought my first game from there a few days ago. It was Freespace 2, for the record - the lack of DRM, and the availability of a cross-platform engine to run it on were what swung it for me, as both of these things mean that I can play my purchase as I wish, on any of the machines that I own. There's a lot of value in that - and that brings me on to my second point...

Secondly;

In all this talk about DRM, I see a lot of mentions of "content providers", but fewer mentions of customers... To paraphrase Sean Malstrom, if you're in the business of content, you're in the business of customers. (In particular, see parts of this article, which touches on both digital distribution - which, in the context of this article and others that mention it, is partly referring to games that are DRM'ed - and on respecting customers, amongst other things. This one also covers similar towards the end of it, though to a lesser degree as those parts are in bullet-point form. ) That content doesn't mean much if customers aren't being treated well.

Note that I'm in no way against game developers making a living or protecting their stuff as they see fit (I'd never dream of pirating stuff at all, and never have). It's just, without the customers, that living isn't even there.

 

[Jourdy288]

Crap. I couldn't read all of the above. I'm smacking my poor, n00b head on my hard, wood desk. I read enough. All I must say is that I have nothing against commercial games on the Pandora, but I prefer to get the game free, and then have perhaps an ingame advertisement play or something, but as a rule, it can't be obnoxious.
Perhaps during updates, it uploads how many times the ad was seen? It's a small price to pay, but well worth it. I wouldn't object to something like that.

As regards DRM, I wrote a little about it here:

http://thestuffiread.blogspot.com/2009/09/it-wasnt-too-long-ago-that-i-remember.html

I don't think DRM on games is a good idea. I think we should just have an honor system, really. If you're willing to rip off a little person who is probably more honest than you and is trying to make a living, fine. You're just not welcome.

 

[Tenuki]

Important fact of life is that paid software is not limiting your freedoms, but quite opposite - it's actually expanding. Please allow me to prove that:

* There are OpenPandora hardware team, free software creators and free software consumers. If someone would decide to release something and ask money for that - first three mention parties would be OK with that. If paid software unit would be crap - consumers would ignore it and nothing would change (effect equal to someone releasing a unit of crappy free software). If paid software would be good, consumers would buy it. Additional option of quality software would attract more consumers, which in turn would produce more sales of OpenPandora, which in turn would make development costs lower and sale price of each unit lower as well.
* You don't Have to buy software if you don't want to. The fact that there is limited free software for PSP and NDS are not existance of paid software, but the fact that it costs a lot of cash to release Any software for those platforms Legally so in turn developers Have to charge for whatever they are releasing. Did anyone noticed that there is Linux available for PC? Do you know there are literally million of different paid software for PC? How come free software lives where there are millions of paid software options? Because free software does Not Care about paid software.
* When I consider each paid software I have bought, I can't find decent free alternative for not a single one of them. I do use Linux (Ubuntu), because I like provided safety and customizability. I also own Vista, because it supports better new gaming hardware and the games I own. I'm happy that I can choose between Linux and Windows for different tasks as elimination of either of them would make me "sad panda".

I did not wanted to go into "DRM is baaad, mkey" flame, but I feel it's inevitable to clear some points. If developers are left with "you may implement your own DRM if you want to and selling your software is your problem":
* Minority of developers might implement their own DRM in effective way. Customers will be happy. Half of developers will do it in a wrong way, scaring off customers from buying quality software or maybe even worse - paying for software and getting it in a pervertedly protected way. Last half of developers would release their software without any protection, which would result in heavy piracy and very poor revenue making those developers very "sad pandas".
* Well implemented unified DRM system has a lot more potential to be of higher quality and easier to use by both developers and customers.
* Piracy have it's good and bad sides. Yet lately it does more bad than good. If you want to buy a new PC software, you have no single place to go to get reliable opinion about it. Safest way is to get pirated version to try it "before you buy". Piracy also allows people with low income to get high cost software before they can afford it. I know a lot of game development studios use 3DMax illegally before they grow up and can finally afford it. Yet bad side of piracy is that it very drastically reduce income of developers. With all PC piracy, even being most popular platform, it looses developers and fast. Anyone played Patapon on PC? Or maybe latest Final Fantasy? Yay! We have freedom! (I'm being sarcastic here)
* You, "I'm for free software" guys don't have to pay for DRM, unified Marketplace or any similar implementation. Why? Because software is paying for hardware not the opposite. Current consoles are sold cheaply because Creators of the consoles are making money from sold games.

If you are Really "fighter for Open software" and you want Pandora to succeed, I would vote for paid software and attraction of professional developers as in return, more console units will be sold, stronger will be developers of Pandora, better designed, more powerful and cheaper will be future _OPEN_ consoles! I dear to say that more units sold would even encourage more hackers to compile more good free stuff. They do that _Illegally_ for PSP and NDS already, where it was a lot harder than it is on Pandora.

Summary is:
* Attracting professional developers is essential for Pandora to grow big and become very popular.
* Open software guys lose nothing if there is paid software available.
* Piracy is your enemy assuming you know a single reliable place where you can check quality of the software before you buy it. (and later is more like optional, only to prevent scamming)
* To achieve above (look summary), my suggestion, we need unified Marketplace for paid software. Or similar alternative to attract professional developers, minimize and discourage piracy. Your ideas are very welcome in This direction.
* To achieve my idea (optimized by you), I don't see other way but a total support by creators of OpenPandora.
* To get their support, we need to all (most) of you guys to agree on this and focus on how to improve this rather than flaming in random directions.

----------
Now back to useful stuff:

Regarding usage of SD card as DRM - that's best idea so far and sounds very interesting. My thoughts to battle mentioned weaknesses:
* "What if I lost SD card". We could bind paid software to SD card and it to specific consumer. If consumer reports "I lost/damaged/etc my SD card, here is my new one" there should be an option to get all paid software to the new card. I see no problem here. If the server lives as long as all Pandora creators company - that's fine with me.
* "What if I run out of SD card space". Consumer should be able to purchase a software to any single SD card (or transfer to another SD card - look above), effectively having unlimited number of cards with any mix of paid/free software. Having in mind that Pandora has two SD card slots, dedicating one to paid software does not sound too radical and also having so rich paid software options available that total size of bought software in gigabytes would exceed the ease of switching SD cards is a bit hard to imagine scenario for me.

What do you think?

 

[Gary13579]

So, has anyone stepped up to making this or are we still arguing about DRM? I skipped the past few pages, on purpose.

I would love to make this, but I see a few problems... namely, is the PND protocol finished, is it a final choice for applications on the Pandora, or could I rewrite it? And how should I handle it running on both cpa's GUI and E17?

I'll probably set up Qemu soon and try to get a copy of the current GUI to see where that stands.

 

[dflemstr]

So, has anyone stepped up to making this or are we still arguing about DRM? I skipped the past few pages, on purpose.

I would love to make this, but I see a few problems... namely, is the PND protocol finished, is it a final choice for applications on the Pandora, or could I rewrite it? And how should I handle it running on both cpa's GUI and E17?

I'll probably set up Qemu soon and try to get a copy of the current GUI to see where that stands.

1. PND is not a protocol
2. The PND and PXML formats are finished (but I agree that they are unomtimal; I've worked on them and it's a mess sometimes)
3. There is no standard for repository information
4. You find the source for everything at http://git.openpandora.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=pandora-libraries.git; the main library is called libpnd.
5. I've tried to create an online management application for PNDs but I've kinda given up (lack of time); you'll find the source for it at http://github.com/dflemstr/pndmanager (It's in Scala and Javascript; use Maven 2.10 to build+run it)
6. There's really no point in rewriting the PND format since it can't really be made to be better. It's an archive of files with sparse metadata; how much more simple can it get?
7. Don't make PNDs into something similar to DPKG/IPKG/RPM packages; they are not supposed to be similar.
8. Don't start working on anything before having discussed it in the forum, or you will have wasted your effort most probably.

 

[Grench]

Now back to useful stuff:

Regarding usage of SD card as DRM - that's best idea so far and sounds very interesting. My thoughts to battle mentioned weaknesses:
* "What if I lost SD card". We could bind paid software to SD card and it to specific consumer. If consumer reports "I lost/damaged/etc my SD card, here is my new one" there should be an option to get all paid software to the new card. I see no problem here. If the server lives as long as all Pandora creators company - that's fine with me.
* "What if I run out of SD card space". Consumer should be able to purchase a software to any single SD card (or transfer to another SD card - look above), effectively having unlimited number of cards with any mix of paid/free software. Having in mind that Pandora has two SD card slots, dedicating one to paid software does not sound too radical and also having so rich paid software options available that total size of bought software in gigabytes would exceed the ease of switching SD cards is a bit hard to imagine scenario for me.

What do you think?

Whew... Thank you - for a bit I thought I was in a small minority on this issue.

Keep in mind that any SD card based DRM checks would only have to check if EITHER of your cards has the magic code on it. You could actually put the purchased software on either one or even in on board flash if it would fit IMHO.

Expanding the idea...
If the application store (I still like my Pandappstore name for it) were to sell the cards in large sizes (32GB) it negates any issues of 'loosing space' to the app card. The way I picture it is you purchase the card (your choice of size 8,16,32) when you buy your first game/app/??? that has a DRM requirement. OpenPandora registers the card to you and ships it to you. It comes with nothing on it - OpenPandora doesn't even have to write a thing to it, just read the DRM code and record it to your account. You can then download your game/app/??? that will be usable any time that card is in your Pandora. All future purchases you make from the Pandappstore are linked to that same card you will already have. As long as it is in the machine when the application is launched, it shouldn't necessarily need to be installed to that exact card.

Loose your card? Purchase a new card and register the old one as lost/destroyed - OpenPandora sends you a new card and you re-download all of your games/apps that are now tied to the new card.

Need the space and delete a game? Re-download it - since it should be on your Pandappstore account linked to your card.

Want something that isn't a DRM application on that same card? Go for it - nothing stopping you.

Run out of space on your DRM card and want more paid DRM apps? Just install them on your 2nd card - the DRM check is looking to see if an SDHC card with your code is in a slot, it doesn't have to be the one with the software on it. In this vision you should never need more than 1 registered SDHC PandaCard.

Marketing it... Make cards available in 8GB, 16GB and 32GB (larger if we can get SDXC working). Credit the cost of the first 8GB card towards the first game purchase from the DRM side of the store. Sell the other sizes at near cost or at least competitive with a normal quality SDHC card minus the cost of the 8GB with the first purchase - don't make the card purchase a deterrent to app purchases. Silk screen or ink stamp the Pandora logo on them.

Use high quality cards - don't skimp on them. Something with a durable casing so they're less likely to crack and with a high re-write rating.

 

[WizardStan]

All of the above arguments seem to assume that a "Pandorappstore" would simply be posting links to the owner's of "Commercial Games And Apps" web sites for the content owner to sell directly to you.

Not one does.

IMHO this is not a likely scenario.

Hehee! We agree on something!

Actually, I do, more or less. If you read the Commercial titles thread, OpenPandora was considering buying ONE (1) license to build and sell. The profits from the sale would be entirely theirs (less potential royalties, depending on license agreement)
They cannot afford to buy a whole bunch of licenses, take the time to rebuild them, and then sell them.
The most likely scenario IS that some developers see potential in the market, build their application for ARM, and then sell it on their terms. At the most, OpenPandora may host the binaries on their servers, accept payment, take a small cut for themselves, and then send the binary. Profits are then passed back to the developer, not unlike the Apple app store.

 

[Monk]

Agreed, more software = more choice.

So - you can't find decent free equivalents of software that you buy, then you immediately quote a decent free equivalent of software that you've paid for? (Windows and Linux)

There isn't always a decent free equivalent of things that you pay for, which is why I mentioned "restraint". There isn't a decent free alternateive to smoking - I gave up smoking.

I did not wanted to go into "DRM is baaad, mkey" flame, but I feel it's inevitable to clear some points.

Since quite a lot has been said already, I intend to limit myself here only to points where I strongly disagree.

If you want to buy a new PC software, you have no single place to go to get reliable opinion about it.

This is not caused by piracy. There never was a single place to get reliable opinions on software just like there never was a single place to get reliable opinions on music or movies - if only because reviewers have different tastes and criteria to users.

Yet bad side of piracy is that it very drastically reduce income of developers.

You REALLY don't want to go that route. this supposed causal link does not exist, and has been disproven repeatedly. There is also cause to suspect that piracy improves the income of developers for the very reasons that you've outlines - the "try before you buy" route, where you have successfully demonstrated that people/companies try first and then buy later. However, I'm not sure that this is reliable proof in and of itself that piracy increases income any more than the rumour that piracy reduces the income of developers. You should additionally be aware that products are priced to take piracy into account, just like real stores ar aware of the level of shoplifting and the price of goods is placed to take shoplifting into account. It's DRM that reduces the developers income - and the costs of that get included in the software too, so it's end users that pay. Piracy would only reduce income if numerous factors (some unmentioned) were not already in place.

* You, "I'm for free software" guys don't have to pay for DRM, unified Marketplace or any similar implementation. Why? Because software is paying for hardware not the opposite. Current consoles are sold cheaply because Creators of the consoles are making money from sold games.

You may have got lost here somewhere. Aside from the fact tha tmost of us are perfectly fine with pay-for-software, software is not paying for Pandora - and this is the Pandora forum. The whole concept of the Pandora is for the hardware to pay for itself, and to be an Open project (hence the "Open" in the company's name).

If you are Really "fighter for Open software" and you want Pandora to succeed, I would vote for paid software and attraction of professional developers as in return, more console units will be sold, stronger will be developers of Pandora, better designed, more powerful and cheaper will be future _OPEN_ consoles!

Curiously, I have been.

* Attracting professional developers is essential for Pandora to grow big and become very popular.
* Open software guys lose nothing if there is paid software available.

I disagree, but it could help certainly.

* Piracy is your enemy assuming you know a single reliable place where you can check quality of the software before you buy it. (and later is more like optional, only to prevent scamming)

Huh? I have no idea what this means, but piracy isn't MY enemy. Even though software of mine has been pirated in the past, I seriously doubt that there was any way of avoiding piracy beyond not releasing the software.

* To achieve above (look summary), my suggestion, we need unified Marketplace for paid software. Or similar alternative to attract professional developers, minimize and discourage piracy. Your ideas are very welcome in This direction.

Already given in bucketloda in other threads!

* To achieve my idea (optimized by you), I don't see other way but a total support by creators of OpenPandora.
* To get their support, we need to all (most) of you guys to agree on this and focus on how to improve this rather than flaming in random directions.

Done!

* "What if I lost SD card". We could bind paid software to SD card and it to specific consumer. If consumer reports "I lost/damaged/etc my SD card, here is my new one" there should be an option to get all paid software to the new card. I see no problem here.

I do, and there are lots of them. Really, seriously, plenty of reasons. Tell me if you really need them all pointed out again.

What do I think? I think you've missed the difference between "paid for software" and "DRM". The two are not ideantical, and I have decades of DRM causing problems because DRM is designed to prevent the use of software. There will ALWAYS be instances where it decides to do so incorrectly, so the person who suffers will ALWAYS be the honest paying customer.

 

[Tenuki]

software is not paying for Pandora

Yes, and that's side effect of the problem. Everyone would like Pandora to be cheaper while providing same range of possibilities. I can guess it's not a problem for current forum users to afford Pandora almost regardless of the price, but this is definitely an issue for casual customer.

If you so deeply convinced that DRM is bad - so be it. Yet please provide a better alternative. My point is that currently Pandora is not attractive to professional developers. Maybe it's designed to be like that and there are no plans to change anything - I do not know. Maybe current community of less than 4000 members is big enough to stimulate further development of next console. In my eyes it will be unexploited potential. Sadly.

 

[WizardStan]

My point is that currently Pandora is not attractive to professional developers.

If your argument is "it's not attractive to professional developers because it doesn't have DRM" then I counter with "neither does Windows, and it is a very attractive platform for professional developers"
If your argument is that it's not attractive because the market is too small, then we agree, and you should just pretend I never said anything.

 

[Monk]

software is not paying for Pandora

Yes, and that's side effect of the problem.

err...no. No, it isn't. You might want to research a bit about the product you're talking about.

Everyone would like Pandora to be cheaper

Err... no. I think it's cheap enough, thanks, for what it does. So, it seems, do a few other people.

I can guess it's not a problem for current forum users to afford Pandora almost regardless of the price, but this is definitely an issue for casual customer.

I'm not a Linux guru (FAR from it) or a hardcore gamer (ditto). I came in through this route by being a reasonably casual customer looking for a gaming device (my previous console - still in use actually - is an original X-Box. Not a 360, the first one. Still in use). Preferably one I could pick up and put down with ease but which woould be engrossing enough that I didn't really WANT to put it down. That lead me to the GP2X F-200, which included advertising for the Pandora in the box - and here I am. So AFAICS I'm one step removed *at most* from the people you're talking about - because I got here one generation earlier. Otherwise, I'm them. I'm the "causal customer" that you're claiming will find the Pandora too expensive. Pandora is my choice largely because it's cheap for what it is. Oh - and being a forum member here does NOT require or imply riches.

Unless you mean tha tpeople want it to be cheaper just in the general sense that we'd all like to be paying less for everything - taxes, bread, beer and so on. In which case yes, of course... but what's your point?

If you so deeply convinced that DRM is bad - so be it. Yet please provide a better alternative.

I have, repeatedly. I guess you are not listening.

DRM does not prevent piracy. Fact. Even illustrated in this thread.
DRM does cause aggro for legitimate users. Fact (although badly done DRM is worse than well done DRM, well done DRM is aggrovation waiting to happen).
DRM is not inherantly required for a central software repo. Fact.
DRM costs money and/or time to develop and impliment. Fact.
Development costs of practically anything are passed on to users in retail pricing. Fact.

Provide a better alternative? Easy - no DRM. It costs developers less, which means they can charge customers less for the same return, which means they can get more sales which mean they can make more money. Which part confuses you?

My point is that currently Pandora is not attractive to professional developers.

How many have you asked?

And personally, I can cope without any software developer who doesn't understand the above DRM points and/or insists on trying to sell me software which includes "restrictionware".

Maybe it's designed to be like that and there are no plans to change anything - I do not know.

Try researching. Seriosuly. Know your topic beforehand.

I have not argued anywhere that DRM should be prevented, or that all software should be open, or that all software should be free. I intend to pay for some software I believe is coming, I may pay for more once I find out about it, I may well donate (again) for software that is "free" but accepts donations, simply because I like it and value it and the developers (we'll have to see what the software is like, and what my paypackets will allow). I don't want to pay anyone to develop a technique to prevent me using my Pandora any way I feel like using it. That isn't something I want to buy. You do - so you are their market. If there's enough of you, great - they'll sell loads, I'm sure. I don't mind them selling to you, but I'm not keen on this rather insidious attempt to move OpenPandora away from being an "Open" based company towards being a "closed, DRM, evil" based company. the whole ethos of the Pandora is open-ness - inclduing being SO open that developers are free to use DRM if they want to. But OpenPandora providing DRM would be a contradiction IMHO.

Maybe current community of less than 4000 members is big enough to stimulate further development of next console. In my eyes it will be unexploited potential. Sadly.

Sorry - who says there are less than 4000 members of the "community"? I've been a me,ber of the community for longer than I've been a forum member, or a Pandora owner.

It is almost certain that the Pandora will not compete with the likes of SONY or Nintendo. It isn't REALLY intended to, at least if you pay attention to what the developers have said. That doesn't mean that it cannot and will not sell in serious quantities. Sometimes these things snowball, and relatively good products by relatively small groups of people can and do burts out into larger markets. Sinclair, for a while, made more computers than the whole of Japan, yet they were a fairly small company - probably not much larger than OpenPandora in many ways. Pandora has the potential to be much more than the effective precursor - but that isn't a GameBoy or a PSP - it's the F-200 that rests not 5 feet from my right knee as I type. Could it do better than that machine did, in sales? I really think it could, and if the team behind Pandora stick to what they seem to be planning then it has every chance to go to a new level.

Going head to head with SONY or Nintendo at this stage would be suicide. SONY could give their hardware away, for free. OpenPandora can't and that isn't because of a "side effect" of the way they have set about making the machine - it's psrt and parcel of the whole concept. They need to differenciate in order to get a good grip on a marketplace - not dive into a well established marketplace full of more powerful, rich competitors and shout "Bet we can do better than you!"

 

[dflemstr]

Am I speaking the truth when I say that the Pandora is less attractive for professional developers because of the sole reason that it's running Linux? Because that's what I think is the largest factor in the equation.

I mean, think about it:

1. Linux is a "strange platform" and no professional developers know how to program for it
2. Even if developers wanted to implement some kind of copy protection for their applications, it would be more difficult to do in Linux because:
   • You can't make a lock-in driver for Linux because all Linux kernel drivers have to be GPL
   • You can't create shared library hooks for copy protection systems because there aren't any standard shared libraries that are used in every game (â la DirectX)
   • Because of the above, and because of Linux' unpopularity, there aren't any plug-and-go copy protection systems readily available for developers (except for, maybe, PunkBuster; they have a port)
3. Nobody even KNOWS about Linux (yet), so they can't make a game for it

I think that it would be much more likely for a professional Pandora game to happen if there was some kind of Pandora-API that resembled some other API, like the PSP-API or NDS-API etc, so that it would be easier for developers to port games and get into the system, and so that developers wouldn't have to embrace the whole suite of gazillion libraries that you normally have to use in order to create something practical in Linux.

And yeah, as if that's gonna happen...

Anyways, it isn't about the DRM or about the lack of an "appstore"; the only reason why I would want to have an "appstore"-like system would be that it would be easier for ME to get software for my Pandora; developers wouldn't be part of the reason at all.

 

[Monk]

+1 to evreything dflemstr just wrote.

 

[Tenuki]

I'm totally failing to explain my point. Let's try one last attempt before I give up.

Theoretical example:
Let's say you have £100,000 in your bank account and a small team of developers (number and specialties of your choice) ready to do anything you wish them to do. Now choose any available platform and/or console where you feel there is a potential to create new high quality software. After choosing one or more platform(s)/console(s) please briefly explain your business plan, what software you would create and how to you expect to get your money back and hopefully make some profit out of it?
(You may assume that Pandora is already out if that's important)

Just to be sure you understood me correctly: in this example you are not trying to "lose" money or "give it to charity" or "just to support a good cause", your goal - to be professional and make money for your company.

So what would you do? Please do convince me that Pandora is attractive console for an theoretical professional studio.

 

[WizardStan]

So what would you do? Please do convince me that Pandora is attractive console for an theoretical professional studio.

It isn't right now. The market is too small to spend even $100'000, let alone £100'000. Even if you assumed that every single person was going to buy, you'd still need to charge $25 above cost.
Any studio that spends more than $20'000 is guaranteed to lose money on the Pandora at the moment, and even those that keep it under $20'000 are still pushing their luck.
What does any of this have to do with DRM?

edit: ok, I've thought about it. Let's assume that the market isn't 4000, it's 100'000. How to prove that the Pandora is a viable platform:
Pandora:

• Libraries: Free
• Licensing: Free
• Deployment: Negligible
• Profit: 100%

DS/PSP

• Libraries: not free
• Licensing: not free
• Deployment: costly
• Profit: significantly less than 100%

If we're looking at a 5% saturation, that's 2000 sales on 100'000 units, at $20 a piece, that's $40'000 gross, and the only cost is developer time.
If the suits say "what about pirates?" and DRM becomes a necessary evil, I point out that 256 meg SD cards can be purchased, written, and locked for pennies in large quantity, and contrast that with the cost of building a DS cart. This increases our deployment cost, but hey, suit wants a false sense of security, suit gets a false sense of security.

 

[Monk]

I'm totally failing to explain my point. Let's try one last attempt before I give up.

No, your point is coming across but you seem not to be seeing the point/s from "the other side". Your point is understood, it's just invalid. It's the equivalent of the 2pink elephant" example I gave above, somewhere.

Here's another attempt at it - a slightly blunter one.

Nellie is Pink / Big software houses make popular games
Nellie is an elephant / Big software houses use DRM
All elephants are pink / OpenPandora must start selling DRM software

See, it doesn't matter how true the first two lines are, they do not lead to the third line - even if it looks like they should.

Pandora is in a different game to the PC, the Playstation, the Wii, the DS.

 

[Tenuki]

What does any of this have to do with DRM?

I don't know. I was not talking about DRM - you are. I get the impression that you only see Pandora popular by using DRM. You deeply hate DRM. So other options are not even considered. I'm looking at each option and try to compare them, looking which one would benefit Pandora most.

Now back to my example.
If Pandora sells 100,000 copies, 5% of people are interested in software, and each copy is sold at $20 per unit, you think developer would earn $40,000. Right?
Actually considering "World of Goo" case - piracy for games like this is about 90%. Which means, developers would get only about $4,000 instead of $40,000. Now it is a bit tricky having estimated $4,000 revenue (not profit) to create a software, which sells at $20 per unit. Agree?
("World of Goo" case, two guys, two years, would end up being about 2 * 2 * 40,000$ = 160,000$ in salaries only, assuming it's Pandora only sales. Porting would be a lot cheaper)

Obviously the more units Pandora sells, the higher will be revenue of developers regardless of anything. Yet how many Pandora units you need to sell for your plan to become profitable (look calculations above)? This is not solving the problem. This is ignoring the problem.

Do we agree that current platform is not attractive to professional developers?
Are we ready to consider other options without prejudice?

 

[Monk]

Umm...

What does any of this have to do with DRM?

I don't know. I was not talking about DRM - you are.

Err.. you WERE. For that one post you didn't mention DRM, but you said you were attempting to clarify what you'd tried to say previously - and your previous posts in the thread mentioned DRM. So it's fair to assume you had DRM somewhere in mind, I think, and to wonder how your clarification related to DRM.

I get the impression that you only see Pandora popular by using DRM. You deeply hate DRM. So other options are not even considered. I'm looking at each option and try to compare them, looking which one would benefit Pandora most.

I don't read WizardStan that way at all. I can't red his mind, but I don't see him thinking that the Pandora can't be popular without DRM. I'm sure he's very happy to consider things that are not DRM. I don't see Pandora needing DRM to be popular either, so I am quite happy to see Pandora with no DRM. It doesn't worry me at all.

Or do you mean something more specific by "popular"?

Now back to my example.
If Pandora sells 100,000 copies, 5% of people are interested in software, and each copy is sold at $20 per unit, you think developer would earn $40,000. Right?
Actually considering "World of Goo" case - piracy for games like this is about 90%. Which means, developers would get only about $4,000 instead of $40,000. Now it is a bit tricky having estimated $4,000 revenue (not profit) to create a software, which sells at $20 per unit. Agree?
("World of Goo" case, two guys, two years, would end up being about 2 * 2 * 40,000$ = 160,000$ in salaries only, assuming it's Pandora only sales. Porting would be a lot cheaper)

No - not "5% of people are interested" but "5% market saturation". That's purchases. So from 100,000 Pandora owners you would get 5,000 SALES (and 45,000 pirated copies using the 90% piracy rate).

That 5,000 SALES at $20 a pop would indeed be about what, $100,000 gross?

Also - why would major gaming developers develop games that are unique to the Pandora? With so many other Linux devices out there - including other ARM devices - wouldn't it be a good idea to develop for Pandora "and other devices"?

I mean - how many desktop Mac-only games are there?

This is ignoring the problem.

OK, let me try another angle too - which problem? If you think that not having FIFA 2010 and so on is a problem, I humbly suggest you are looking at the wrong machine.

Do we agree that current platform is not attractive to professional developers?

Well, I can see that sure

Are we ready to consider other options without prejudice?

Other options for... what? To achieve what? And what other options to DRM? Huh? Is this thread a mystery in an enigma in a platformer?

 

[WizardStan]

Now back to my example.
If Pandora sells 100,000 copies, 5% of people are interested in software, and each copy is sold at $20 per unit, you think developer would earn $40,000. Right?
Actually considering "World of Goo" case - piracy for games like this is about 90%. Which means, developers would get only about $4,000 instead of $40,000. Now it is a bit tricky having estimated $4,000 revenue (not profit) to create a software, which sells at $20 per unit. Agree?
("World of Goo" case, two guys, two years, would end up being about 2 * 2 * 40,000$ = 160,000$ in salaries only, assuming it's Pandora only sales. Porting would be a lot cheaper)

You misunderstood what "market saturation" means. Fortunately Monk corrected you. Also corrected my maths: 5% of 100'000 is 5000 units, not 2000, which makes it even more attractive.
And who here has ever, at any time, said anything about exclusive Pandora only sales? It's been mentioned several times that sales would be from ports of existing games, or cross platform. You will notice that there are very few exclusive Playstation and XBox games these days. That's because developers have noticed they can sell more when they develop for a larger audience. If the Pandora gets commercial games, they will be part of a sweep of "get this game on everything we can", and $100'000 of pure profit (less man time) is almost guaranteed to make someone say "YES, do that!"

 

[Jourdy288]

Tenuki, your intentions are noble, I can see that, but you have to understand: we need to build ourselves up first. If you would really like to help us, your best bet is to buy a Pandora, tell your friends, etc. If you own a store, buy some Pandas en masse, sell them. Just use the butterfly effect. I'm sorry, I'm not in my right mind ATM and I'm not writing as well as I usually do but having massive companies dev. for us isn't the right choice ATM. Just flap your wings
You'll cause a hurricane at the other side of the globe.
If we do it, eventually, the massive companies will be waiting on us, we won't be begging at their ankles.