Logo twerking

[comradekingu]

Thats one way to look at it, yet its comparing apples to oranges. The pandora isnt the ds, for more than one reason.  The DS is very good at being the DS. The market the pandora is in, is a different market mostly, its catering to the hardest gamers, and the most nerdy people. Coming to terms with this means one doesnt try to outdo nintendo at what it does well, but rather stick with succeeding at what ninendo and the rest do very badly at.

Also the DS demographic is kids and the pandora is adults, targeted or not, thats the reality.  When i say there is more sales in something that isnt gaming, i mean _for the pandora_ not for anyone else. The comparison for the case of argument stops at both being able to do DS.  The computer aspect is however the selling thing, and that is fully featured on its own. Moreso with the pyra than the pandora.

To cater to business type minds is exactly where linux|gnu, 3g modem, security, enough vertical screen realestate, small with hardware keyboard, is at right now. It would be silly to miss out on it just to have a lid design thats more game centric.  The big game console makers havent had good visual profile since sega left, and its working for them, no?  In my opinion  not turning people away is crucially important, moreso than going from 90% to 95% for whoever for the case of argument is getting it anyway.  PDA, mini-mini laptop was and to a small degree is a thing of its own. Selling 20000 units to that market is considured a huge fail for whoever was in that market earlier. However for the pyra selling 2000 of those units is a huge win, because it means additional units to what is the audience right now.

Thats +1700 with imaginary math, easily.  Just because it wasnt called a game console, just because the logo wasnt too silly for mr. wichtig.  Game console, for however much i love them, means limited. And thats very much artificially limited these days. Being different is what its about. The gp2x was a game console, and was made a gaming device. The pandora was a gaming device and became a laptop.  The pyra can be every good device there is and then some, all in one.

Im just trying to contribute to it as best i can, playful things might not be my thing. I have the skills im able to aquire and what that produces is what it is. That is tangible, its right in front of you. Asking the obvious polar opposite to every logo that meets a set bold guideline means it all goes towards mediocrity, and no consensus is made.

Think in a broader sense, its not the pyra game console, its the pyra handheld. What you want it to be is what that is.

 

[God Ginrai]

I gotta agree with Natsu here, a lot of what comradekingu just said sounds like prejudice. ("most game consoles cater to children, or people who aren't smart enough to use a PC.") And that's not the kind of reasoning that should be defining any important decisions on this project.

Also, I think the concept of something looking like a toy, and thus losing buyers is a bit overblown. There have been some people who have talked about not using colored buttons because it would "make it look like a toy", but even those people didn't say that they would refrain from purchasing the device over so simple a decision. To assume that there would be some large amount who would not purchase the device simply because of the logo would be absurd.

-God Ginrai

 

[comradekingu]

The only reason artificial limits are ok is because people are "dumb enough" to accept it. Less so because they harm themselves with the power a real PC gives. For handheld game consoles, being supereasy to use makes sense, because children cant figure out inept desktop environments all by themselves. And speaking of game handhelds, last i checked sony wasnt doing so good, so that leaves nintendo, which is struggling, even with what it does best, which is rake in cash by  being in the sweetspot for children and moreso and with the respect to the former than or people who cant use a pc because then they need to ask their mum about things.

Spoiler

(And why is that, its because desktop interfaces are very taxing to get into, either not intuitive, or empirically different to how most people leant the hard and wrong way. I didnt make the rules and im sure for how good you find game consoles to be, you dont appreciate all the limits. For however many things you thought "why is", there is now a pattern in your brain at the ready to tackle those hurdles.  I call that smart, yet it isnt, yet it is.)

What that means is there are two handhelds and three audiences, following this axis.

children, less competent people, nds                                                  then lots of people who dont have one,                                                    and then there is the pyra&pandora, nerds, freedom, hackery and most everything the nds isnt.

Selling pyras to people with 3ds-es in the sense that its a better 3ds when you are ok with the 3ds is not a huge market, because it isnt. Selling 3ds-es to pyra owners is probably flying off the shelves more than nintendos own market, but again, the pyra owners dont register with nintendo, because they arent many compared to the sale figures nintendo needs to keep the train rolling. And the train rolls on nintendo ead street, it costs money to develop stuff for yourself at the caliber nintendo does.

I probably am a bit obnoxious, and appologize for the language, but to me there isnt a single reason left why I would buy a modern game-console of any sort, and that isnt because i dont like games or what have you, its because i dont like those games, and those rules, and those controllers so on. If im smart enough to meet my needs on a fully free computer then good for me, i dont think thats for everyone. What i mean to say is that the PC is, at its most, what you can utilize it for most, and thats the most freedom. Who learnt the right thing the hard way and want and can reap the benefits of that? Same right side demographic from above, the pyras&pandoras dont do their computing on game consoles...

Convenience, dumbed down, is done very well on consoles. Its not so much an IQ problem as it is habitual, which in turn means people dont learn, not even the wrong way what semi-good is. When i learn to be smarter i get more out of my PC, you could just as easily say computing for however small you want to thread the needle, isnt for me. And thats true, it isnt. There are people everywhere that are much smarter than me, (even at the things i do well).   The point is, that similarly the <10k people with a pandora is a fairly small percentage of people, and a very technically minded audience. Realizing that means more sales and better devices, because its all about meeting the demands of the extrordinary. I want the lid design to be different as well, to reflect that.

 

[rygD]

To some people it might not be. It is enough of a game console to be one, but for different people its different things.

I think the target audience here is 16+. We all probably like nintendo, but not so much being seen with our nds-es in public. Most game consoles cater to children, or people who arent smart enough to operate a PC.

We arent that, and i sure enough own enough silly handhelds from before.

Enjoy games, by all means. Consider this though, to people for which it isnt a game console, its a handy tool.

That market is vastly bigger than game console, and it commands more money. People looking at it like a get business done type device are going to be deterred if it looks too playful, or, as sentiment is, "like a toy."

I fall into both categories at different times.  I still carry around game boys from time to time, and don't care if a seem like a freak.  When I use my Pandora it is often thought to be a DS.  I think the LED lit logo will help avoid that with the Pyra, which is why I care about the logo so much.  Plus it might inspire more people to ask me what it is instead of assuming it is a DS.  Lately I haven't been playing as many games as I had hoped, but LibreOffice keeps the Pandora with me.  Show me someone using that on their DS.

rygD: can you draw it. Im not understanding how that can be done and still retain a box in the middle. Were it a font logo then i would understand, but it isnt. The letters are readable because they adhere to latin script, that cant be avoided while  still retaining readability.  Everything serves a purpose, and there is a reason for it all. I cant move anything without breaking the whole thing, so i dont understand whats wrong, nor what can be done, nor how to do it.

Ok, I understand what you were doing better now, and there is no way to do what I was suggesting while maintaining the box.  Basically what I was suggesting is making your inner lines curvy like those in the poll, which gets rid of the box, but might appeal to those who love number 1 in the current poll.  I still think your designs look pretty cool, although they might be too different for most people.

 

[God Ginrai]

comradekingu, if you think that Sony struggling in the handheld market has anything to do with how easy the device is to understand, then you don't understand the handheld market at all. The handheld market is built on the foundation of short experiences. Sony, by attempting to enter into this market with a device that used UMDs, (basically tiny CDs) was never going to secure a foothold in that market. This introduces load times into the experience, which is not acceptable when you are only looking to play in short spurts. That's why Sony switched to cartridges with the Vita, but by that point, the damage was already done. Everyone could trust Nintendo to do it "right", and the 3DS was backwards-compatible with the DS.

Oh, and Nintendo is not struggling at all in the handheld market. They are basically printing money right now with the 3DS. Their problem, is that the money they are making for the 3DS is having to be spent paying for the losses on the Wii U.

-God Ginrai

 

[FaeMinx]

You make fair points. I won't argue with them.

However, it appears to me the counter arguments presented to you (while not obviously clear on this point), revolve around one thing - personality.

The people who don't really like your logo for the device aren't liking it not because they fail to see the logic behind it, but because it clashes with what aesthetically appeals to them.

So far you've seemed to imply (but not overtly so) that it's because they aren't 'intelligent' enough to appreciate true workmanship.

Wether you meant that or not is irrelevant... the simple fact is that this community comprises individuals of above average intelligent, AND a fairly diverse range of skill sets / interests / preferences.

I myself have an affinity for natural organic designs (as it also appears a slight majority of this community do based off the votes in the logo thread... though admittedly there are too many unknown factors to make that a definitive assumption).

Now the interesting thing to consider is that a 'perfect' organic shape or logo would also be mathematically balanced as is evidenced in the supposed 'natural' world.

The perfect logo would appeal to both you and I...

The question is there someone in this community skilled enough and 'balanced' enough to recreate nature and thus produce a logo that is in essence... perfect.

This could all be moot, as Ed has already placed limits on the direction we can go with this.

 

[comradekingu]

Well it seems i can do no right. That isn't what I'm implying at all. I only make what i make, if people/ED don't like it, no difference does it make, and in the bin it goes. If there is any value to it, its that its (edit: somewhat) consistent, which is why changing it to accommodate everything everyone likes everywhere isn't a road to success. I can understand trying to help it along and focusing on its weak points, but the only thing i firmly believe in is that whatever value there is, is lost by not also accounting for its strengths. I understand it myself, but thats as irrelevant as anything.

At the end of the day i don't think there exists a perfect lid design, nor logo for everyone. And that peoples differing taste is also a part of the variety that exist in the natural world. There are simply too many boxen to check if some of them are mutually exclusive. Starting with the name alone, one can only make something so connected, meanwhile readable, yet aesthetically pleasing.

Many a time its come to a point where i think, "well it would look nice if i could just insert a "#!" - char here" or similar, which is to say deciding the name in retrospect isn't the most holistic approach. Similarly when i do make or find something i think make sense, its so apparent to myself that i don't think it needs, nor do i really want, to explain it. FZERO understands me somehow, and while his workmanship is truly great, it takes little but myself and my skillset to be able to hone the same idea into nothing in going wrong with it. Then again half the battle is a losing one, so its part of the victory to suffer defeat at what isn't the right path to go. Arguably i only make mistakes and the mistakes of defending them, only welcoming those who agree, and their opinions.

At the very core my workmanship is irrelevant to anyone but me, I believe in what I do, and should think I'm too good a critic at ripping apart myself at times. My sense of workmanship is mine; What I make is truly connected with me, what I am, what I'm worth.

I don't think any sentiment is more or less intelligent, but it does boil down to what something is on account of itself, rather than to someone, or in relation to something it isn't. At the end of the day maybe i enjoy consistently bad logos, or that FZERO has worse taste than I do, or has some sort of sympathy to help. I am in no way impartial, just as much as one can make arguments to support what something is, based on itself or what is truly aesthetically pleasing. The truth lies somewhere, and its fast approaching difficult to find, enjoy or explain; The sum of all of what one likes. Evidence strongly suggest nature enjoys its ways, or is at least hellbent to repetition, the mastery of a sword that is sharp at both edges. The way of nature is brutally honest, yet fantastically impartial in the nature of its making.

It feels like blindly finding something, in order to lead the blind, only to be blinded by the regressiveness of what is not expected nor known in return, which is the blind leading the blinded, guided by one mans blind and irrevocable faith. Design by committee is both a flawed concept, and the most truthful endeavor.

Trying meanwhile to see how much of this process that can be trusted and replicated, only to repeat it. Its a learning process, but i think if anything is a more solid answer to what works where, its a inclusive vote which can be double-checked against a control.

 

[Løra (Lolla)]

I'm failing to see what the problem is here.


The logo is nice, and it's a different interpretation and variation of logo #1 (hence the "tweaking).


What's the problem?

 

[_wb_]

Here are some more tweaking ideas for the dP logo.

A distorted version of the above could also be fun. It's still an ambigram, but it's no longer rotationally symmetric so you can still use it to find the side where the lid opens:

 

[FaeMinx]

@comradekingu (fellow moon)

Just to clarify: there is nothing wrong with your logo.

.... from a certain philosophical perspective, there is nothing wrong with anything....

... but as we've both stated... it's not going to appeal to everyone.

Is there any way you can simplify it, bring in more curves, and try to find a halfway mark between what you have here and the no1 logo?

Must you have a box?

What about a waveform... I.e. one side of a dna strand (so that if you flip one side of the ambigram, the lines will overlap creating a short dna sequence)...

This hidden symbol could then be related back to the spiral vortex which is basically the symbol for everything, from particles to black holes, to the fractal nature of the universe itself.

 

[FaeMinx]

Here are some more tweaking ideas for the dP logo.

A distorted version of the above could also be fun. It's still an ambigram, but it's no longer rotationally symmetric so you can still use it to find the side where the lid opens:

Can you thin your lines? Imho they are a bit too chunky...

I like the distorted one the most, but don't think it looks nice upside down.


Edit: Actually, I like the middle one the most.

 

[Natsu]

I don't like any of them, especially the 3rd one.

 

[Saber]

Here are some more tweaking ideas for the dP logo.

A distorted version of the above could also be fun. It's still an ambigram, but it's no longer rotationally symmetric so you can still use it to find the side where the lid opens:

Can you thin your lines? Imho they are a bit too chunky...

I like the distorted one the most, but don't think it looks nice upside down.


Edit: Actually, I like the middle one the most.

The first and second with a scimitar edging to the tips, maybe. They both look great to me though.

 

[ZXDunny]

If I might just butt in here -

I bought the Pandora as a gaming console, first and foremost, and that's what I still use it for. That's what I'm buying the Pyra for too. Games, Games, Games.

Also, you guys are aware that the abbreviation "DP" means something very, very different on the internet at large? Surely you are?

D.

 

[TrashyMG]

Also, you guys are aware that the abbreviation "DP" means something very, very different on the internet at large? Surely you are?

Shh.. it's why I'm silently wanting it to win..

 

[FaeMinx]

Oh there are loads of *ahem* ... unpleasant word combos to choose from...

Spoiler

D**ks and Pu***es


Do**le Pen*****ion


Disgu**ing Pe**phile


Dir** Perv**t


Dr**k Pasto*s


Devi**t Pu*ks


Diabo***al Pass**ns


Etc...

Edit:


And before anyone thinks I was swearing there...


The first one is refering to Ducks and Puppies....


<.<


>.>

 

[God Ginrai]

Also, you guys are aware that the abbreviation "DP" means something very, very different on the internet at large? Surely you are?

If anything, that would net EvilDragon more sales to hipsters who are trying to be ironic.

-God Ginrai

 

[Natsu]

Also, you guys are aware that the abbreviation "DP" means something very, very different on the internet at large? Surely you are?

It means something different, only if your mind is already in the gutter.

 

[WizardStan]

Also, you guys are aware that the abbreviation "DP" means something very, very different on the internet at large?

Yeah! Go Danny Phantom!

 

[Løra (Lolla)]

@FaeMinx: I just wanted to say that I think the box in comradekingu's logo is quite important because of the "box" in "Dragonbox". His logo seems to have incorperated everything relevant (i.e dragons, wings, box, fire etc).