Keyboard Layout And Durability

[yosh64]

hey

Looks pretty cool, haven't really read any posts and such. But what if you want to type with your fingers? how can you press the CTRL and ALT buttons? (I'm hoping I can type with me fingers somehow anyhows, hehe)

Something else I just thought of (not sure how well it would work with software), that is to have each direction of the dpad set to a different mode (character set) instead of ALT/CTRL/FN.

cyas

 

[peca]

Peca, what are the shoulder buttons? Are they behind the LCD on the "spine" (or how to call it) - the back or Pandora? Are there two of them? I thought that clicking on the touchscreen will be done by just touching the surface. Does it mean that clicking on the screen is done by pressing those two buttons?

Shoulder buttons are on Pandora's backside. They aren't on back of LCD, but on Pandora's bottom part. The same buttons are usually on common gamepads, sometimes pair of them (two on left and two on right side).

Kagato, you have said that shift-Backspace is DEL. I very good idea. But it is not obvious from the current lauout, because DEL is printed in white color.

It is due to shifted chars are on top and smaller then unshifted ones which stays in middle and are larger.

Would mind changing the color of all "shifted" symbols, and the color of "shift" itself? Just like Fn is blue and all FN-ed symbols are blue.

Maybe. It up to Pandora's developers, but think:
- more colors are more expensive.
- on common keyboards is not different colors for shifted chars.
So rather not, even if it can make some "cool look".

Oh, and an asterix '*' on 'I' key is too small. It looks like a dot, could you enlarge it?

It's has same size as other symbols, but it is not a problem. I guess that it is too small too.

What is the 'BkTab' key?

Back Tab. It's acronym for Shifted Tab, but I can't type Tab symbol on my keyboard

Could you manage squeezing somewhere the SysRq and Pause keys? Pause may be useful for pausing games, and SysRq is very useful for recovery from kernel oopses/bugs (linux hacking). I use it rarely, but when I do - this key really saves the day.

Oops. I take in to mind and then throw it away. But you are right SysRq is "must have" key, Pause can be ommited due to Menu/Select/Start trio (at least one of them make the same service as Pause). CraigIX make thread about one of them, but I don't remember about which - maybe Menu or Select.

I suggest make Menu/Select/Start clear without any overloading, but SysRq is so much important and so much system, as Menu/Select/Start, that I think about mapping SysRg to Fn-Select. What is you mind Kagato?

And we still have Ctrl/Alt+click issue. This may be done by mapping ctrl and alt to other keys if mouse mode activated. OR press and release Ctrl/Alt (sticky) then hold Fn and click (without entereng mouse mode). We even can double click by holding Fn.

I definitely guess that meta keys (Shif, Fn, Ctrl and Alt) must operate in both modes together (sticky and unsticky), so we can press and hold meta key and press other key OR press and release meta key and then press other key. Doe to keyboard size and number of buttons limitation.


yosh64: I guess that you can comfortably type by fingers (Pandora on table or knees) and still easy reach shoulder buttons.

(I thing that make keys from translucent rubber like material with some deep kind of imprinting chars will be excellent. I thing abut home made kbd backlit, but without keys translucency is backlit unusefull.)

 

[kagato]

Peca beats me to it again

But what if you want to type with your fingers? how can you press the CTRL and ALT buttons?
Something else I just thought of (not sure how well it would work with software), that is to have each direction of the dpad set to a different mode (character set) instead of ALT/CTRL/FN.

Remember this device is about the width of a CD case. You won't exactly be touch-typing on it
If you've got it flat on the table, you can still hold L and reach any key with your thumb. I don't think it will be that hard.

We can't map functions directly to the Dpad; we need it for the cursor keys.

Kagato, you have said that shift-Backspace is DEL. I very good idea. But it is not obvious from the current lauout, because DEL is printed in white color.

Did you have the same confusion with the F keys? Because they're labeled the same way...
Peca covered the other points.

Oh, and an asterix '*' on 'I' key is too small. It looks like a dot, could you enlarge it?

I'll resize the individual symbols once the layout is settled. They're all the same font size for now so it's easier to edit.

Could you manage squeezing somewhere the SysRq and Pause keys? Pause may be useful for pausing games, and SysRq is very useful for recovery from kernel oopses/bugs (linux hacking). I use it rarely, but when I do - this key really saves the day.

Oops. I take in to mind and then throw it away. But you are right SysRq is "must have" key, Pause can be ommited due to Menu/Select/Start trio (at least one of them make the same service as Pause). CraigIX make thread about one of them, but I don't remember about which - maybe Menu or Select.
Games will use Start for pause; it's the same on all the other handheld consoles.
Menu should be the system key; Select is whatever the app needs it to be.

QUOTE
I suggest make Menu/Select/Start clear without any overloading, but SysRq is so much important and so much system, as Menu/Select/Start, that I think about mapping SysRg to Fn-Select. What is you mind Kagato?

Sounds okay to me. You might not even need to label it, as only developers will use it, and they'll know.

QUOTE
And we still have Ctrl/Alt+click issue. This may be done by mapping ctrl and alt to other keys if mouse mode activated. OR press and release Ctrl/Alt (sticky) then hold Fn and click (without entereng mouse mode). We even can double click by holding Fn.

Here's an idea: in mouse mode, leave the shoulder buttons as Ctrl & Alt, and map the game buttons to the mouse instead. A is LeftMB, B is RightMB, Y&X are MiddleMB. If you really need PgUp/PgDn etc, press Fn first.

 

[peca]

Here's an idea: in mouse mode, leave the shoulder buttons as Ctrl & Alt, and map the game buttons to the mouse instead. A is LeftMB, B is RightMB, Y&X are MiddleMB. If you really need PgUp/PgDn etc, press Fn first.

+1

Now we are finished, I guess. Where is MWeston to beat as out? OK, I'll send him PM (past text for clearance):
QUOTE

Hi Michael!

Sorry to bothering you, but we wish you reaction in topic. We discus about best layout of keyboard with internationalization on mind and have some conclusion. But it is useless if you (and your team) have finalized something else and have other planes.

Please take look at last draft of keyboard layout and few following posts. Clear some questions about key material and necessary HW control:
- can be use (semi)translucent material for DIY adding backlit?
- how can meta keys act, can they act sticky and nonsticky, is this fully under SW solution or nothing needed and only system configuration will suffice?
- LCD has just only brightness or contrast control or both? It need to clear doe to mapping LCD controls to keys.
- I don't clearly remember about Menu/Select/Start trio, just have something about directly wiring to omap on mind, so I ask if Fn+Select can act as SysRq, or even if anything else can be mapped on this 3 keys. So they are so unique, as I recall or not?
- And at last if you can comment our linked design.

Thanks for your time,

best regards
Peca

 

[kagato]

Revised mouse button mapping
SVG source

 

[_VWV_]

My to cents here. Please make standard qwerty layout as default. Stickers + software reprogramming can solve any layout issue with any language. Why do we have to have an accent button mapped buy default? Is it that necessary to overload keyboard with 4 sings per key? You want to please non-English speaking people but is it possible?
Let's take Russian layout as an example. We know it's impossible to make a Russian layout that'll be comfortable to type. That is why some Russian-speaking-typing folks will prefer the default variant that devs might accept and some will dislike it. And it will be impossible to change it coz the letters will be engraved into keys.
Everybody accepts qwerty though there were some debates on this issue. But do you think it's possible to quickly work out a Russian layout that will be as widely accepted as qwerty? I think the answer is no for several reasons: because 3-5 persons (Russian-speaking population of this forum) can't speak for 140 million potential Russian Pandas users, because we don't have prototypes to try out the proposed variants, because of lack of time. Substitute Russian for any other keys-hungry language if you like.
So buy overloading the keyboard with unnecessary symbols like accent you'll please some Czech/Russian/whatever people but not all of them. Does it worth the pain?

 

[God Ginrai]

QUOTE
And we still have Ctrl/Alt+click issue. This may be done by mapping ctrl and alt to other keys if mouse mode activated. OR press and release Ctrl/Alt (sticky) then hold Fn and click (without entereng mouse mode). We even can double click by holding Fn.

Here's an idea: in mouse mode, leave the shoulder buttons as Ctrl & Alt, and map the game buttons to the mouse instead. A is LeftMB, B is RightMB, Y&X are MiddleMB. If you really need PgUp/PgDn etc, press Fn first.

Man, this would be so much easier if we still had stick click... *cough* *cough*

<.<


EDIT:

[...] because 3-5 persons (Russian-speaking population of this forum) can't speak for 140 million potential Russian Pandas users, [...]

LOOK OUT NINTENDO DS! HERE WE COME WITH 140 MILLION RUSSIAN CUSTOMERS!

-God Ginrai

 

[peca]

VWV: I guess that discused layout is quite qwerty standard. Yes there are symbols that are slightly moved due to lack of keys. Indeed, layout is designed with internationality in mind, but there none national symbol imprinted on keys - look at last Kagato's post. And internationality is made univerzal (I hope) for all Latin letters, not just for Czech and French

God Ginrai: Yes, meta keys needs to be sticky on thumb keyboard, not need to get flu. It mainly about simply and fast using. But before we take it to bare hands, we don't know it surely.

 

[fusion_power]

I hope, the Devs speak a clear word about the Layout soon, I get slightly Headaches from all this complex Keyboard-Layouts.

"KEEP IT SIMPLE" is OUT those days, right?

The funniest solution would be a slide in-Foil with custom Buton layouts. You put this sideways between the transparent Key-Caps and the Keyboard Hardware underneeth. Something like these Kids-education Computers with various Cards for various Button labelings, functions etc.

 

[Vladsharp]

I hope, the Devs speak a clear word about the Layout soon, I get slightly Headaches from all this complex Keyboard-Layouts.

"KEEP IT SIMPLE" is OUT those days, right?

The funniest solution would be a slide in-Foil with custom Buton layouts. You put this sideways between the transparent Key-Caps and the Keyboard Hardware underneeth. Something like these Kids-education Computers with various Cards for various Button labelings, functions etc.

Custom button layouts would be awesome! I wonder how easy it would be to create your own layout, or to get one made for you.. Perhaps if the devs commented on that, it would make everyone's minds easier about not having their favourite layout available on the pandora by default. Mine would be Colemak, but then again, that question has been raised and discussed long ago

 

[God Ginrai]

The funniest solution would be a slide in-Foil with custom Buton layouts. You put this sideways between the transparent Key-Caps and the Keyboard Hardware underneeth. Something like these Kids-education Computers with various Cards for various Button labelings, functions etc.

Sounds cheap. (Not in a good way)

-God Ginrai

 

[fusion_power]

Sounds cheap. (Not in a good way)

-God Ginrai

We could go the APPLE-WAY and make it expensive! :lol:

Well, at the end we have to accept, what the Devs give us and I'm sure they already have a final Keyboard layout and enjoy this Thread just for their pleasure.

 

[God Ginrai]

Sounds cheap. (Not in a good way)

-God Ginrai

We could go the APPLE-WAY and make it expensive! :lol:

Well, at the end we have to accept, what the Devs give us and I'm sure they already have a final Keyboard layout and enjoy this Thread just for their pleasure.


I put the "(Not in a good way)" so you wouldn't understand it as talking about price. I was talking about quality. Cheap can be used to describe bad quality.

-God Ginrai

 

[cosurgi]

I like the final proposal very much. But the L / Ctrl / LMB and R / Alt /RMB switching adds IMHO a lot of avoidable complexity.

IMHO it's simpler to:

1. replace BkTab with Ctrl
2. replace Accent with Alt
3. replace "mouse-switch" FN+8 with Accent
4. say that BkTab is Fn+Tab+Shift
5. remove Ctrl and Alt from L and R keys.

And so:
1. it will be possible to press alt+ctrl with single thumb OR any other finger
2. finger typing will be more comfortable
3. no need to switch mouse mode Fn+8 back and forth

This keyboard will work exactly the same without sticky keys. It's just a matter of software config. Good for me, becasuse I don't like sticky keys.

EDIT: Oh, and for clarity I'd delete all those red 'X'-es. But this decision is up to devs. What they will put there - cyryllic or what? I don't care. Maybe if there is a Pandora pre-order stage, you could say in pre-order which keyboard variant you want? This depends on how much printing different labels adds to the final cost...

 

[God Ginrai]

I like the final proposal very much. But the L / Ctrl / LMB and R / Alt /RMB switching adds IMHO a lot of avoidable complexity.

IMHO it's simpler to:

1. replace BkTab with Ctrl
2. replace Accent with Alt
3. replace "mouse-switch" FN+8 with Accent
4. say that BkTab is Fn+Tab+Shift
5. remove Ctrl and Alt from L and R keys.

And so:
1. it will be possible to press alt+ctrl with single thumb OR any other finger
2. finger typing will be more comfortable
3. no need to switch mouse mode Fn+8 back and forth

This keyboard will work exactly the same without sticky keys. It's just a matter of software config. Good for me, becasuse I don't like sticky keys.

You can't press Ctrl+Alt with that combination, so our "avoidable complexity" is very much necessary.

-God Ginrai

 

[cosurgi]

You can't press Ctrl+Alt with that combination, so our "avoidable complexity" is very much necessary.


Then how about exchanging everything between Dpad and ABXY keys? Then B = Ctrl, X = Alt. And all others swapped too.

 

[jmetal88]

I hope, the Devs speak a clear word about the Layout soon, I get slightly Headaches from all this complex Keyboard-Layouts.

"KEEP IT SIMPLE" is OUT those days, right?

The funniest solution would be a slide in-Foil with custom Buton layouts. You put this sideways between the transparent Key-Caps and the Keyboard Hardware underneeth. Something like these Kids-education Computers with various Cards for various Button labelings, functions etc.

Or like the overlays on the Atari 5200 and Jaguar controllers. :lol:

Though I actually like those.

 

[God Ginrai]

You can't press Ctrl+Alt with that combination, so our "avoidable complexity" is very much necessary.


Then how about exchanging everything between Dpad and ABXY keys? Then B = Ctrl, X = Alt. And all others swapped too.


That fixes that problem, but as far as ease of use is concerned, I believe that it would be a lot easier to use keyboard shortcuts if Ctrl and Alt were on the Shoulders.

-God Ginrai

 

[cosurgi]

That fixes that problem, but as far as ease of use is concerned, I believe that it would be a lot easier to use keyboard shortcuts if Ctrl and Alt were on the Shoulders.

I see. Heh, we can't say unless we get this into our hands and start testing it.

Also - is there a reason for not putting Ctrl, Alt on bottom left, below shift? Those two keys are really perfect for that. Well, yeah - there are 6 symbols ,<-.>` . But is it really worth it?

I know - finding place somewhere else for ,<-.>` is not easy, because the layout looks complete. But what is more important: ,<-.>` or conveniently placed Alt, Ctrl?

If Alt,Ctrl is more important we could try to find a place for ,<-.>`

 

[peca]

cosurgi: With all respect, I guess that thumb typing on device this size will be better. Ctrl and Alt on left bottom side kbd seems uncomfortable for thumb typing. I understand, you wish finger type but:

As far as cycle functions on unlabeled keys, it doesn't mater as everybody can change mapping as wish. BTW, don't mistake, L and R marks Left and Right shoulder and doesn't mean nothing while typing, so Ctrl and Alt on them are used unshifted.

If keys are sticky or not, can be configurable. At least when press and hold key and press other key, then act as nonsticky.

Last thing. As Tab and Shift+Tab (BkTab) are commonly used (or more often Alt+Tab and Alt+Shift+Tab), I supposed BkTab accessed trough less strokes (only 2, the same as Tab).

I still awaiting MWeston conclusion, as it can make fish tale from whole thread ;-)

Oh, and ,<.> is commonly used, so they are wanted to be easy accessed.