Keyboard Layout And Durability

[peca]

Accessing accented chars by pressing AltGr+Char is pointless. Some langs use more then one accent for the same basic char. Ie Czech and Slovak (á, ä, č, ď, é, ě, í, ĺ, ľ, ň, ó, ö, ô, ř, ŕ, š, ť, ú, ů, ü, û, ý, ž - really plenty) and if add Poland, Germany, Hungary (our neighbors) and French, Spanish, Latvian and other Europeans, you simply can't get all accented char on one keyboard layout.

Only good solution, that I see, is use accent key and then char key. Accent key can be accessed by pressing Fn key or separate AltGr key. I'l glad to see symbols (!@#$%^&*()+-=[]:;{}/?<>) on keys too. So we need some key for symbols and other key for accent marks OR make layout where all needed symbols and accents fit.

Other way is don't make any internationalization and user just choice where to map few accent marks that are needs. Ie Czech needs ´ˇ°¨ and ¨ can be omitted, ˇ and ° merged due to ° is only used for ů and u with hook can't be typed on Czech kbd (on some layout be "ˇ"+ "u" typed as "ů"). I don't know if any language using Latin chars need more then 5 accents, so 5 keys without symbols, as reserved for accents, may be enough.

 

[CoMiKe]

Even if I'm spanish, I think the best would be to only label the punctuation signs common to all Roman languages.

That would be the most used, I think. So no accents, diacritics and no other alphabets, IMHO.

 

[cloud858rk]

Keep the keypad simple. If you look at all the pictures of keypads with Cyrillic, they're cramped and confusing looking. I vote for the layout in the renders or something similar.

 

[realyst]

Keep the default Roman layout, please. I'm french but don't need the extra accent(I remember alt codes quite well).

Worse case someone can come up with an aftermarket overlay+ software remapping solution.

 

[hrsimoes]

I would go for CoMiKe's minimalist/clean approach (with the corrections pointed out by cosurgi and Chip).

I have been using the U.S. Extended layout (which I prefer for coding) in software (it doesn't match my laptop physical layout) ever since I got an iBook a few years ago, and it works for me.
Whenever I forget the location of some seldom used symbol and want a quick way to find it, I use the Keyboard Viewer application (a similar app can easily be developed for Pandora).

If I want a custom layout (and I probably will) I would be against having misplaced labels, since it tends to difficult remembering the correct location (looking at a symbol while having to press some other).
This is why I would prefer having labels only where everyone would sensibly agree.

 

[AireTamStorm]

Q: what language is this forum in?
A: english!!

Thats the kind of attitude that gets America on the hatelist for many countries.
Person A: "If you wanna come to our country, speak our language!!!". The problem being, that same person will think it is unreasonable to learn some French before they go to France, or some German before they go to Germany.

On topic, I like CoMike's minimalist design as well, but some symbols would be nice. I don't believe I even saw a period on that layout.

I do not have a problem with other language layouts on the keyboard itself, but I believe it is simply bad design to cram too many functions on each individual key.

/.,<>?;'":[]{}\|!@#$%^&*()_+=-

 

[cb88]

don't get me wrong there i have no such attitude.... i was pointing out that everybody even on this forum or involved with the pandora can indeed get by with an English keyboard

did you not even read teh rest of my post I SPEAK PORTUGESE and i even learned a good bit before i went to brazil for 5 years

also i agree too many functions on a tiny keypad is just ridiculous especially after printing out a mock up....

 

[zaoin]

I like the minimalist aproach but some special characters can be useful.

Perhaps people can write their most used characters in their idiom.

Here mine:

Catalan(spanish keyboard from spain has these characters yet):

àèòùáéíóúüïç·

 

[kagato]

I'm going to assume that most users won't usually need to enter characters for more than one language at a time, so rather than stack up the modifier keys, why not just overload the AltGr button instead? Repeated presses cycle through the input alternatives for that key:
Fn-AltGr turns on the first charset, and stays on. After typing, Fn-AltGr turns it off again.
To select a different charset, cycle through with Fn-AltGr-AltGr-AltGr... (there should be on-screen feedback)
The order of the alt character could be configured in the localization setup.

I haven't bothered to label the alt characters, but you can see 3 possible positions on the relevant keys. (maybe just two positions for readability)

I've moved all the punctuation characters onto the main keys; if you're typing I don't think you'd want to move your thumbs up to the number row unnecessarily.
Fn then Shift gives you caps lock; Shift then Fn gives you Fn lock.

This layout shows two possible positions for Ctrl & Alt, and two positions for AltGr.
I think AltGr on Space is more consistent with other thumb keyboards.
Start & Select for Ctrl & Alt probably makes sense, as any application that uses them is unlikely to also use Start & Select; you could skip pressing Fn first in those cases.
That leaves they 2 - 8 keys for special functions (brightness, contrast etc)

 

[CoMiKe]

Beautiful! I think you should share an empty keyboard template.

Anyway, I think that only the most basic and common signs should be labeled on the keyboard.

I believe that we will learn the non-printed characters earlier than if they were printed, as you will have to make a little effort to remember them.

 

[Pleng]

Beautiful! I think you should share an empty keyboard template.

Anyway, I think that only the most basic and common signs should be labeled on the keyboard.

I believe that we will learn the non-printed characters earlier than if they were printed, as you will have to make a little effort to remember them.

OK How about - standard keyboard with a plastic crylic overlay?

Personally I like the cluttered look. Maybe that's because I have a Thai keyboard. I understand however that to many people it looks cluttered, especially with small keys. So why not include an overlay that fits flush with the unit and has the crylic symbols?

 

[kagato]

Beautiful! I think you should share an empty keyboard template.

Your wish is my command. pandora_keyboard.svg
Best edited with Inkscape. (You can edit the text without touching the rest of the layout.)

QUOTE
I believe that we will learn the non-printed characters earlier than if they were printed, as you will have to make a little effort to remember them.


Does that rule apply for standard punctuation characters as well?
I don't really want cluttered labels, but given the small production run for the Pandora and its international market, they do need to cater for a wide audience with the standard product.
If the alt characters are printed in a subdued colour, they shouldn't be too in-your-face but still readable for those who need them. (Red on black seems to work ok, for example see this pocket keyboard)
However:

OK How about - standard keyboard with a plastic crylic overlay?

I don't think the keyboard will have room for any sort of overlay.
But if the keys are silkscreen printed, then there's a possibility they could produce customized keys for different regions (provided the sales numbers made it economical). The major expense on case production is in the tooling; different printing should be a minor cost.
I'd keep the standard punctuation & function keys the same across all regions, and just change the alt characters.

 

[Hotcooler]

Kagato - I like that layout. It's pretty good and it will cover all the needed chars for most languages.

P.S. It may be a good Idea how to change layouts. Not just cycle them but press FN-ALTGR and a specific key. For example Fn-Alt-A for arabic e.t.c.

 

[MilanC]

I like the idea having to press accent key (Fn + something?) then letter for most accented characters.
By the way, I think Ctrl and Alt *must* have dedicated keys. (Alt and AltGr can be on same key, though - Alt = Fn then AltGr)

 

[Dutch_Cap]

There's already too few keys to represent a basic US keyboard. I think the pandora should ship with basic US qwerty characters mapped onto the keyboard as well as possible.

I don't like the idea of using stickers. Rather, if you have set a non-US keymap, if you press any of the special keys, I think a picture of the keyboard should appear on the screen. The keys on the screen should display the character to be typed if the key is pressed along with the special key. (Of course you should be able to turn this feature off.)

Edit: It should be possible to replace the keyboard, maybe someone could sell international keys/keyboards for replacing the original.

 

[Pleng]

Edit: It should be possible to replace the keyboard, maybe someone could sell international keys/keyboards for replacing the original.

The keyboard is solderd directly to the motherboard IIRC

 

[emil10001]

I don't think that the keyboard is soldered to the motherboard, but the contacts are on the motherboard, and the keyboard hits those contacts. So, the layout is fixed, but not necessarily the rubber (or silicone or whatever) keyboard.

I don't really like the idea of a keyboard showing up on-screen outside of a 'keyboard config' menu, as it eats up too much valuable screen space.

I really like the layout that Kagato did. It has lots of possibilities without looking too cluttered. I do think that each possible selection per key should have its own color, and there should be corresponding colored function type keys that allow you to select those. And actually, I know this might sound a little extreme (and possibly not doable), but maybe a multicolor LED to signify which colored function is chosen.

- Just some thoughts.

 

[peca]

Repeated presses cycle through the input alternatives for that key: Fn-AltGr turns on the first charset, and stays on. After typing, Fn-AltGr turns it off again.
To select a different charset, cycle through with Fn-AltGr-AltGr-AltGr...

Please no. Multiple pressing is (IMO) not good idea. I think that press 3 keys is maximum acceptable for common characters and 4 for less frequented ones. So basic Latin letters is on 1 press and 2 for upper case, but then 3 for unshifted (4 for shifted) AltGr chars (Fn, AltGr, Chr) !

As more time thinking about it, I don't want AltGr, but accents usermapped and accessed by Fn key. I can reach wanted char by pressing [Shift,] Fn, Accent, Char. So if there are 5 free keys (I mean without Fn alteration) for mapping accents, I'll be happy (as I usually need only 3 accents, but often 2 over the same char).

Ctrl and Alt would be on separate keys, if they should be.

 

[TaG]

Looking at the pics real size, using Arialia's simtgscreen, I think the 'international' options do look a little 'busy', and I prefer the current render. To be fair though, the choice of colours make a big difference.

Chip's argument has many valid points, but my reservations are the clutter (which is also uncool) and most importantly that it stands no chance of satisfying everyone especially those that do not use the QWERTY version of the Latin keyboard.

As to using stickers, I have been very sad today inspecting laptop keyboards at work :blink: and stickers are the norm.

I think one of he most important aspects is getting some of the principal keys correctly posiioned - Fn, Alt, Ctrl for example.

 

[peca]

My try.


I no have idea about better place of Ctrl and Alt, so I let it be. Accent should be mapped on Fn + keys 4 to 8 by user. Comments?