Keyboard Layout And Durability

[realyst]

I think the keyboard should support Portuguese, French, Chinese, Japanese, English, various scripts from India, Klingon and Esperanto....

I'm all for having pride in your mother tongue(heck, the French practically invented being rude to non-French speakers ), but PLEASE stop cluttering up the keyboard!

26 letters, punctuation marks, white space and tab buttons, math operators and a return key should be sufficient for any basic computer operation in any language.

Custom remapping can be done in software.

There are too few keys and far too little room to try to make this the United Nations of Keyboards.

And before you go all "That's why we all hate Americans", I'm a French Acadian Canadian with some Irish in me. And I sure don't want to have to go looking for my bloody letter and punctuation keys or tap on the Fn key like some obsessive compulsive, crack addicted, coffee salesman with Parkinson's.

 

[kagato]

Ha ha, you beat me to it Peca! We had similar revisions in mind.
A few differences though:

I swapped Tab to Fn-Space, so that it's possible to shift-tab... though it requires some fancy software juggling of meta keys.
(Fn then Shift released is caps; Fn then Shift held is shift-Fn on the next key(s) until released?)

Lots of replies below:

There's already too few keys to represent a basic US keyboard.

You think so? Sure, you can't give everything its own key, but I don't see anything missing from my layout. (PrtScn/SysRq, ScrLk, Break; but they're legacy keys anyway)

Edit: It should be possible to replace the keyboard, maybe someone could sell international keys/keyboards for replacing the original.

The keyboard is solderd directly to the motherboard IIRC
You can't change the keyboard layout, but you could (potentially) change the keycaps. If they're printed it ought to be reasonably economical; if the letters are molded into the key plastic, probably not -- too expensive to retool.

I do think that each possible selection per key should have its own color [...] maybe a multicolor LED to signify which colored function is chosen.

I'd use no more than 3 colors for readability.
Shift is standard, so that's the base color; 2nd color for Fn, 3rd color for AltGr. Multiple AltGr characters would still be mapped to the one meta key (somehow), so the color should remain the same for all IMO.

To select a different charset, cycle through with Fn-AltGr-AltGr-AltGr...
Please no. Multiple pressing is (IMO) not good idea. I think that press 3 keys is maximum acceptable for common characters and 4 for less frequented ones.
That suggestion was for switching to another charset, not single characters. eg. Fn-AltGr switches to latin accents, Fn-AltGr-AltGr switches to Cyrillic, etc. (with on-screen feedback to you know which mode you're in), and stays that way until you press Fn-AltGr again.

QUOTE
As more time thinking about it, I don't want AltGr, but accents usermapped and accessed by Fn key. I can reach wanted char by pressing [Shift,] Fn, Accent, Char.

That works for accented characters, but not for alternate character sets (Greek, Cyrillic, asian characters etc.)
My JASJAM does accents by typing the base character, then pressing Fn-Space to cycle through the possible accents for that character. That could be another way of doing it.
On my diagram, AltGr is moved up to Fn-2 (to change charset), and Shift-Space is now Accent (to toggle accent for the last typed character). You can hold Shift and keep tapping Space until you get the one you need.

Now accent characters don't even need printing on the keys, and the AltGr graphics can be reserved for unique character sets.

 

[peca]

Ha ha, you beat me to it Peca! We had similar revisions in mind.

Sure, I start from it.

A few differences though:
I swapped Tab to Fn-Space, so that it's possible to shift-tab... though it requires some fancy software juggling of meta keys.

Hmm, I made Shift-Tab as BkTab (see my image) by pressing Fn followed Space due to less keystrokes. I stiil assume that keys are sticky, not simultaneous as on big keyboards.
Next, I left three system keys (Select, Menu and Start) without any other function. IIRC they are wired directly to CPU and makes HW interupts. And even if not, then I think that keep it only for system purposes are better, then using they for typing.

(Fn then Shift released is caps; Fn then Shift held is shift-Fn on the next key(s) until released?)

I don't guess, if this is good idea, due to not know, if keys are sticky or not. So we need some MWetson comments About supposed layout, key stickiness and if LCD has brightness and contrast controllable. MWetson, write stand-point for as please.

That suggestion was for switching to another charset, not single characters. eg. Fn-AltGr switches to latin accents, Fn-AltGr-AltGr switches to Cyrillic, etc. (with on-screen feedback to you know which mode you're in), and stays that way until you press Fn-AltGr again.

I see. Any way, its can be done by pressing any combination of keys, as Fn, Shift, Shift, Fn or Fn and shoulder button or any other. OK, its cleared I think.

QUOTE
As more time thinking about it, I don't want AltGr, but accents usermapped and accessed by Fn key. I can reach wanted char by pressing [Shift,] Fn, Accent, Char.

That works for accented characters, but not for alternate character sets (Greek, Cyrillic, asian characters etc.)
accents for that character. That could be another way of doing it.

I fully understand issue nonlatin charsets, but it is unsolvable without reprinting keys. One for Cyrillic, other for Greek, another for kana and so on.

My JASJAM does accents by typing the base character, then pressing Fn-Space to cycle through the possible accents for that character. That could be another way of doing it.

Wohoo, it seems good. For me (Czech) it is realy usable, as I must press Fn and Space usually once and occasionally twice (rarely more time). Just initial user configuration for every language may be needed. It will be boring if nonwanted accents cames first and it will be different for different languages. But really good idea.

On my diagram, AltGr is moved up to Fn-2 (to change charset), and Shift-Space is now Accent (to toggle accent for the last typed character). You can hold Shift and keep tapping Space until you get the one you need.
Now accent characters don't even need printing on the keys, and the AltGr graphics can be reserved for unique character sets.

Again, AltGr is now irrelevant, but can be made this way, and again we do not know nothing about key stickiness - maybe it's programmable (I guess it is programmable for sure).

If you may look at my layout, you spot that I change some Fn chars in bottom line and <, > chars move to the left bottom keys. But It really doesn't matter, they could be as you designed. I just use <> more often than ~`.

And last thing. Good idea about laying LCD controls on Fned keys 3 to 7, just don't know, if both, brightness and contrast, are needed (if they are both HW supported, maybe just one of them). And, if I may ask, make new template in SVG with cursor keys mapped on directional control (just for clearance) and mouse control to the analog pads (if you agree).

I guess we have good base keyboard layout. So just developer agreement needed

 

[kagato]

Hmm, I made Shift-Tab as BkTab (see my image) by pressing Fn followed Space due to less keystrokes. I stiil assume that keys are sticky, not simultaneous as on big keyboards.

Probably better that way too. The accent shift should be a non-alpha key so that shift is unmapped... Space was good for that, but Enter isn't mapped yet. I was trying to keep it clear, but do you think Shift-Enter is acceptable for accents?

Regarding stickiness -- with devices I've used, keys are sticky if pressed & released; if you press & hold,

QUOTE
I fully understand issue nonlatin charsets, but it is unsolvable without reprinting keys. One for Cyrillic, other for Greek, another for kana and so on.

It's up to MWeston and crew to decide what markets are big enough to warrant the extra attention. Obviously they can't cover every language, but Russian seems popular. I think most Asian languages have efficient romanized input, so minus accents, perhaps Cyrillic and maybe one other character set is enough.

QUOTE
If you may look at my layout, you spot that I change some Fn chars in bottom line and <, > chars move to the left bottom keys. But It really doesn't matter, they could be as you designed. I just use <> more often than ~`.

I'm not particularly fussed on the layout of the punctuation characters, but yeah they should be optimized for typing efficiency. For the two keys at the left, it's just depends if Shift-Symbol is preferable to Fn-Symbol.

QUOTE
And last thing. Good idea about laying LCD controls on Fned keys 3 to 7, just don't know, if both, brightness and contrast, are needed.

Probably not, PSP only has brightness. So that would free up two more Fn keys.

I'll make a couple more changes, and update the SVG.

 

[peca]

...The accent shift should be a non-alpha key so that shift is unmapped... Space was good for that, but Enter isn't mapped yet. I was trying to keep it clear, but do you think Shift-Enter is acceptable for accents?

I feel strange about mapping enter to anything else. Enter was always just Enter, only other mapping I know is Ctrl+Enter, that send message in various messaging and emailing clients. But what about mapping Tab and Shift-Tab to Fn-Right and Fn-Left or Shift-Right and Shift-Left (on DPad)?

 

[kagato]

But what about mapping Tab and Shift-Tab to Fn-Right and Fn-Left or Shift-Right and Shift-Left (on DPad)?

Good call! Done.

Improved font size a bit, dropped alt-char spaces to two (if used at all), and a few other changes.

I've labelled the mouse functions as suggested, but I'm not sure it's necessary. The touchscreen should do the job for mouse input, and apps may want to use the analog sticks for other purposes...

SVG source has been updated.

 

[DXR_13KE]

i have an idea of it working more or less like we see on mobile phones, you have the "a" key and the "alt gr" key, when you press the "a" key several times with the "alt gr" activated (it could be any trigger) a small list would appear on the screen showing firstly the most common accents on your predefined language and then the accents on other languages, it would then organize the list according to the amount of time a certain accent was used.

press the cursor keys and it will appear in a matrix or table for fast selection of the accent or letter you want.

i hope you understand what i mean.

edit: when i say alt gr i mean any other key that can be used as a modifier.

 

[peca]

Fn-Up and Fn-Down on DPad (yet clear) can be used as AltGr (known as Switch To Next Language Layout) and "Next Accent Variation" (which is on Shift-Space now). This let clear Fn-2, Shift-Space and get language functionality to similiar control.

I still rather put Ctrl and Alt to other key then on three middle, which are dedicated to system functionality. May be Fn-2 and Fn-3. Even if AltGr and Accents left out of DPad, as AltGr can be on yet unused Fn-4.

i have an idea of it working more or less like we see on mobile phones, you have the "a" key and the "alt gr" key, when you press the "a" key several times with the "alt gr" activated (it could be any trigger) a small list would appear on the screen showing firstly the most common accents...

I don't know if i fully understand you but it seems quite difficulty for common typing on relatively comfortable keyboard, opposite to phone's 12 (or so) dialing pad. And IIRC you assume modification of used applications or universal system patch that assist typing, which is quite difficult and complex (IMO).

My suggestion of using analog pads for driving mouse comes from experience with Palm when I'm too lazy to draw stylus if just buttons can be used. If I imagine as I type on Pandora, I think that using analogs is more comfortable then reaching screen by fingers or by stylus. But maybe much more useful to use just one analog for mouse and second for sliding desktop, so desktop can be over-sized to screen or zoomed in. ThinkPad (IBM/Lenovo notebooks) has only one clitoris thing for driving mouse and working good.

 

[TaG]

I still rather put Ctrl and Alt to other key then on three middle, which are dedicated to system functionality.
I agree. Given how much ctrl-c ctrl-v ctrl-z ctrl-t and ctrl-n get used, it would be nice if ctrl could be single touch, especially where the comma is in the latest pic. What about:
ctrl where , is
shift+ctrl = alt
shift+. = ,
fn+Dpad up = >
fn+Dpad down = <

 

[ssys]

Hi, I've had a look in this thread for quite a while, and so far, I believe (disclaimer stuff goes here) that while the keyboard layouts proposed by Kagato and peca are good, they are not adapted to the "internationality" that goes with the Pandora. It was mentioned earlier that the Pandora could not have localized keyboards, so a good layout is a layout that would match a wide variety of letters.

I have made my own layout as an example, and it is probably not the best, but I can type in French on it ...

Three things I liked from previous layouts:

1. The Brightness and Contrast keys
2. The use of the joysticks and the D-Pad
3. The accessible standard punctuation ( . and , )

Three things I disliked in the previous layouts:

1. The accent keys are on the top of the space key, and there is no "é" letter
2. The keyboard is cluttered by symbols which could be put on the same key using a second modifier (Alt)
3. I admit that I really do not understand the point of having F1 to F12 keys on such a small keyboard, and that I expect the symbols " !@#$%^&*() " (this is an enum, not swearing ...) to be the Shifted numbers. Secondly, the number keys are even smaller than regular keys, and when there is 9, F9 and F11 on the same key, I believe it becomes overcluttered.

My ideas:

1. We could use accent keys that are activated by a modifier. In real life: Look at the Palm 5-row keyboard accent system. You press the modifier (in my example, Alt) and the accent key, release all then press the letter you want to be accented ...

2. By using a second modifier (Alt), we can put three (letter || symbols) per key. This means that { and } can be on the same key, as well as <>, and [ ].

3. Get away from the F-keys. Put the !@#$%^&*() (this is an enum, not swearing ...) symbols where I believe they belong

4. We should put other currency symbols on the keyboard for international users.
5. We should make some Fn+something keys do useful functions (copy, cut and paste gets to dev/human/mind ...), this will provide common keyboard shortcuts, but will spare a key for punctuation.
6. The D-Pad should be used for the up, down, left and right keys (not shown on layout because of missing space)

I do understand that I have made the comma less accessible, but I believe that some sacrifices must be made

Feel free to share your opinion !

As an example of the system, here is an example of keyboard layout:

P.S.: This is a fast made version of the layout I thought (from Kagato's excellent template), please do not take this as 1:1 representation of the keyboard's physical surface.

 

[peca]

TaG is right about ctrl, there is plenty of ctrl+key combinations. So I suggest place ctrl on left and alt on right shoulder button. Mouse buttons can be Fned or Shifted. And just note that "dimmed" labels don't be really printed.

edit: svg source

 

[peca]

Hi, I've had a look in this thread for quite a while, and so far, I believe (disclaimer stuff goes here) that while the keyboard layouts proposed by Kagato and peca are good, they are not adapted to the "internationality" that goes with the Pandora.

I don't know if you read all our posts, but layout is made designed especially with i18n (internationalization) in mind.

1. The accent keys are on the top of the space key, and there is no "é" letter
2. The keyboard is cluttered by symbols which could be put on the same key using a second modifier (Alt)
3. I admit that I really do not understand the point of having F1 to F12 keys on such a small keyboard, and that I expect the symbols " !@#$%^&*() " (this is an enum, not swearing ...) to be the Shifted numbers. Secondly, the number keys are even smaller than regular keys, and when there is 9, F9 and F11 on the same key, I believe it becomes overcluttered.

1. This is due to misunderstand. Accent key (Fn-Space or Shift-Space) modify just typed char. Ie type a and then cycling by Shift-Space and get á ä å (and other accent variations, that I can't type) in order defined by user or predefined differently for different languages. So you can access é by typing e and pressing Shift-Space.
2. I don't like that idea due to frequently used various combinations in various SW. Thing, this is not Palm, this is full Linux OS. Ie Emacs use many ctrl and alt key combinations.
3. I understand your wish to place according symbols on numbers, but amount of keys are limited and we trying our best. Topmost row will be better for system function. Byt sure, contrast can be mapped on Fn-(game button).

I don't comment remaining part of you post, because I guess that I just only repeat previous words.

 

[ssys]

Well, thanks for the clarifications ! I did follow the thread, but it is 8 pages long :unsure: ... Sorry, misunderstanding here ! Besides, I am not meaning that the previous layouts were all crap (they were not), but I wanted to share some (maybe too weird) ideas ...

As for the accent shifting, I actually happen to think it is a good idea, but it should be made clear when shipping (if shipping this way, and I hope it will ), because it could result in misunderstanding. Secondly, I admit I do not know much of Emacs, preferring mcedit to it (I happen to like it's text ui). ... Are you really serious about Emacs ?

However, I still believe that cut, copy and paste could be Fn+... keys because they are quite standard, but I do admit that some other software will use different key combinations to do the same thing.

Lastly, I do not know about it, but the firmware should be equipped with a configuration "something" to configure the letter represented by each key. Is it already equipped in a similar way ? Besides, standard keymap would be good too.

Finally, good old USB mini-keyboard saves the day (to type long documents, etc. ) !

@peca: You sparked interest toward emacs

 

[cosurgi]

Wow, I wouldn't guess that this topic would grow so much I should remake my proposal using Kagato's great .svg template.

TaG is right about ctrl, there is plenty of ctrl+key combinations. So I suggest place ctrl on left and alt on right shoulder button.

Peca, what are the shoulder buttons? Are they behind the LCD on the "spine" (or how to call it) - the back or Pandora? Are there two of them? I thought that clicking on the touchscreen will be done by just touching the surface.

Does it mean that clicking on the screen is done by pressing those two buttons?

 

[kagato]

3. I admit that I really do not understand the point of having F1 to F12 keys on such a small keyboard, and that I expect the symbols " !@#$%^&*() " (this is an enum, not swearing ...) to be the Shifted numbers.
The Pandora keyboard has a large separation between the numeric and alpha keys. The punctuation symbols were moved to the alpha keys because they are used frequently during typing, and you'd want to avoid moving your thumbs from the typing row up to the numbers unnecessarily. All the standard punctuation characters fit perfectly on the main keys.

Lots of Linux apps use the function keys, so for maximum compatibility with desktop Linux it's important to have function key support.

QUOTE
2. By using a second modifier (Alt), we can put three (letter || symbols) per key. This means that { and } can be on the same key, as well as <>, and [ ].
Doing that would preclude valid Alt-<key> combinations sued by apps; Alt-E, Alt-A, Alt-S etc wouldn't be useable with your layout. (Fn-<key> is okay, because Fn is not a standard meta key)


Peca: Shoulder L & R are perfect for Ctrl & Alt in my opinion. People for some reason weren't keen on it in earlier threads, but I think we've shown it's better than all the alternatives. (I don't know why I didn't do it on my diagram )

As long as users don't mind not having labeled keys for shifting accents & charsets, Fn-Up & Fn-Down seem good to me. (If not, Fn-2 & Fn-3 could be used instead, but the dpad seems more comfortable.)

Instead of Fn-L & Fn-R for mouse buttons, maybe there could be a "mouse mode" toggle (perhaps Fn-8). If enabled, L & R are mouse buttons and the analog sticks move the mouse/scroll; if disabled, L & R are Ctrl & Alt and the analog sticks are joy1 & joy2. (Of course, this means you can't Ctrl-click using button controls alone, but you can still do it using the stylus on the touch screen.)
Fn-L & Fn-R could toggle to the opposite mode's behaviour for a single press. Fn-Space for middle click?

I wonder if it's worth swapping the Shift key and [,<] so that Shift is easier to find with your thumb?

Other than that, I think we've got a pretty good layout!
(Now we just need to work out the AltGr labeling )


cosurgi: Yes, there are two shoulder buttons just below the screen hinge, like the Nintendo DS. Peca is proposing that the analog sticks can also be used for "no touch" mouse operation, in addition to the touch screen.

 

[God Ginrai]

TaG is right about ctrl, there is plenty of ctrl+key combinations. So I suggest place ctrl on left and alt on right shoulder button. Mouse buttons can be Fned or Shifted. And just note that "dimmed" labels don't be really printed.

edit: svg source



With that method, you can't double click unless you have Fn-locked. How about Fn+some combination enables "Mouse mode" where L and R are left and right mouse buttons, and some other buttons are middle click and scroll, forward, and back buttons. Then you can press the same Fn+some combination to go back to a more keyboard-directed mode.

-God Ginrai

 

[PSyMastR]

What ever the damn template is. Make sure it isn't butt ugly. With 4-5 alphabets on a small number of keys, it will just start to look cluttered and unappealing. Also, keep a dedicated backspace key. For web browsing/chatting its a must. Considering this device has wifi, maybe games will have text/voice chat we well. Backspace will be greatly needed.

 

[kagato]

Also, keep a dedicated backspace key.

Top-right button. ← is Backspace. I think it's present on all proposed templates.
(Current suggestion also includes Shift-Backspace as Delete, Fn-Backspace toggles insert mode.)

Another thought: for the common international currencies, €, £, ¥ could be mapped to Fn-2, Fn-3, Fn-4.

 

[kagato]

OK, latest revision. This time I used blue for the Fn labels, just for kicks

I've inverted the hardware control labels, like you might see on a laptop.
For reference, Fn-5 & Fn-6 adjust LCD brightness, Fn-7 toggles external display mode(s), Fn-8 toggles mouse mode for the joysticks and shoulder buttons.

I've reduced the AltGr space down to a single character set.
I'm hoping MWeston will be able to do a different print for specific regions; that would let them usefully cater to a wider market than a single multi-language print could anyway.
(Should a second AltGr character be needed on the keys for some languages, the Fn labels can be shifted back to the left for that set; but I think this is the better layout for general use.)

I tried Shift on the bottom row; didn't feel right. This seems good to me.

Here's the diagram without unprinted labels, and here it is without AltGr characters (US release).

I've cleaned up the SVG and put everything on its own layer.
SVG source

-----

Suggestion for AltGr operation:

(A) To activate AltGr Mode for the whole keyboard:

• Press & release Fn (sticky mode), then press Dpad-Up.
  This switches to the alt charset defined in the localization settings. (You can reconfigure for another language, but of course you'll be typing blind...)
• Press Fn then Up again to deactivate AltGr.

(B) To enter a single AltGr character:

• Type the standard roman character first.
• Press and hold Fn, and press Dpad-Up.
  This changes the previous character to the first AltGr symbol bound to the key.
• Pressing Fn-Up again advances the character to the next AltGr symbol (if any); repeated presses cycle back to roman again.
  You can enter single roman characters when in AltGr Mode this way.

Accents can be added to characters the same way as (B) by pressing Fn and Dpad-Down.
(Using sticky Fn would behave the same as (B) for accents.)

 

[cosurgi]

Kagato, you have said that shift-Backspace is DEL. I very good idea. But it is not obvious from the current lauout, because DEL is printed in white color.

In fact looking at that layout I was wondering how you did squeeze both white backspace and DEL on the same key.

Would mind changing the color of all "shifted" symbols, and the color of "shift" itself? Just like Fn is blue and all FN-ed symbols are blue.

EDIT:

Oh, and an asterix '*' on 'I' key is too small. It looks like a dot, could you enlarge it?

What is the 'BkTab' key?

Could you manage squeezing somewhere the SysRq and Pause keys? Pause may be useful for pausing games, and SysRq is very useful for recovery from kernel oopses/bugs (linux hacking). I use it rarely, but when I do - this key really saves the day.