Just to let you know we're not dead (2011-08-16)

[Blue Protoman]

Dude, grow up a little. You've got a sweet bike and now you're complaining because your neighbour got an ATV. You want to take it back to the shop and demand an upgrade because it isn't good enough anymore?


The better units would not make yours any worse, it will continue to function as well as it did before, and will continue to do so into the future. Christ, it's the whole "I feel ripped off because I can only overclock to 700Mhz" argument all over again.

Bikes and ATVs, apples and oranges. One gives you man-powered exercise and transport, the other runs on gas and isn't always convenient (or even allowed) on roads. Now, if my neighbor got a bike with a more comfortable seat, or a frame that offered better stability... (And if I gave that much of a damn about the bike)


And it wouldn't make my unit worse, but it'd make me feel worse, knowing that I could have some more juice pumping Mupen, but don't. Human nature, jealousy, etc, etc. And remember that unlike PC components, this might not cost that much extra money. Sure, give the long-time-waiters the hypothetical new boards first. But remember the other half of us, and that we want them too. And as I've said, I'm all for these new boards if I can have one without buying a whole new unit. Getting it back quickly would help, too.


Oh, and before I forget, please don't compare this to the DS to DSi transition. The DSi came years after the original DS (the Lite did not change any fundamentals), and was worth upgrading for (especially since Gamestop had several offers for it). The Pandora isn't even fully out the door and there's talks of a potential new version. You do the math.

 

[Linopoly]

Oh, and before I forget, please don't compare this to the DS to DSi transition. The DSi came years after the original DS (the Lite did not change any fundamentals), and was worth upgrading for (especially since Gamestop had several offers for it). The Pandora isn't even fully out the door and there's talks of a potential new version. You do the math.

It's more accurate to think of the Pandora as years old, because the design is years old, whether it was shipped at that time or not. If upgrading the SoC is something they can do "on the way" to starting production in Germany, then why should the team deliberately cripple all of the future units they produce just because it makes early Pandora owners feel better? I really don't like that idea.


On the other hand, I think Caine shouldn't have made that comment about not supporting older hardware. Not all developers think like that - I know I would personally want to squeeze as much performance as possible out of anything I was working on if it would mean getting it working on all Pandora hardware out there.

 

[WizardStan]

On the other hand, I think Caine shouldn't have made that comment about not supporting older hardware.

I think he misspoke there. It's kind of hard to drop support when everything is binary compatible. He'd actually have to go out of his way to write his program in such a way that it couldn't run on the older CPU.


More than likely what he means is exactly what has already been going on with overclocking: not everything runs well at stock 500 or even 600Mhz, but developers are still releasing applications with caveats like "must overclock to 800Mhz to get good framerates". So too would it be for newer applications: they'd still run on the older CPU, but they may be slow. Where before a dev might say "this was a proof of concept and will never run respectably on the Pandora so I'm stopping development" now they can say "this is a work in progress: it'll never run respectably on the old CPU but should work well on the new one"


If a Saturn emulator came along but after testing the dev said it could only run on Pandora's that could overclock to 1Ghz (very few), would you applaud the effort and congratulate those lucky few that could use it, or boo the developer for even attempting?


When the choices are to get nothing, or get something that only runs well only on a subset of the consoles and poorly on the rest of them, I prefer option 2.

 

[Blue Protoman]

My thoughts in bold.

Oh, and before I forget, please don't compare this to the DS to DSi transition. The DSi came years after the original DS (the Lite did not change any fundamentals), and was worth upgrading for (especially since Gamestop had several offers for it). The Pandora isn't even fully out the door and there's talks of a potential new version. You do the math.

It's more accurate to think of the Pandora as years old, because the design is years old, whether it was shipped at that time or not.

True, but did most people have theirs years ago? Not knocking OP, I know what went on, just saying.

If upgrading the SoC is something they can do "on the way" to starting production in Germany, then why should the team deliberately cripple all of the future units they produce just because it makes early Pandora owners feel better? I really don't like that idea.

Neither do I, that's not what I wanted at all. I just wanna be able to join the ranks of beefier hardware without paying another $500.

 

[Invader Amoto]

Protoman, you are not entitled to anything more than what you paid for: A Pandora. That's it. You knew what you were preordering, and you got it. Just because there is a new version with better hardware (if it happens), you are not entitled to have one. You can choose to get one if you want, but acting as if OPT owes it to you is just ridiculous. You bought a product, and you got it. Many of us can't even say that much...


EDIT: And I am in FULL support of upgrading the hardware on the Pandora so long as software remains compatible across all versions.

 

[Blue Protoman]

Protoman, you are not entitled to anything more than what you paid for: A Pandora. That's it. You knew what you were preordering, and you got it. Just because there is a new version with better hardware (if it happens), you are not entitled to have one. You can choose to get one if you want, but acting as if OPT owes it to you is just ridiculous. You bought a product, and you got it. Many of us can't even say that much...


EDIT: And I am in FULL support of upgrading the hardware on the Pandora so long as software remains compatible across all versions.

I said I was willing to pay for it, even if upgrades aren't available until all the other preorders are finished.

 

[neko]

If a Saturn emulator came along but after testing the dev said it could only run on Pandora's that could overclock to 1Ghz (very few), would you applaud the effort and congratulate those lucky few that could use it, or boo the developer for even attempting?


When the choices are to get nothing, or get something that only runs well only on a subset of the consoles and poorly on the rest of them, I prefer option 2.

1Ghz really is about the minimum acceptable for running yabause. I suspect people will try to overclock the new CPU even more.

 

[milkshake]

you are not entitled to anything more than what you paid for: A Pandora. That's it. You knew what you were preordering, and you got it. Just because there is a new version with better hardware (if it happens), you are not entitled to have one.

Not on either side of this argument but what you said does not make sense since everyone ordered the same pandora (as advertised with the same specs).


This means everyone technically shuold receive the same pandora, you see when Blue Protoman ordered it the specs where the same as when joe bloggs ordered it, so do you think its 100% fair that just because blue protoman got his pandora first that he shuold have the inferior product even though both blue and the joe blogs who is still still waiting actually purchased the same device?


ill let you think about that for a while.


Also in regards to saving money surly the remaining SOCs purchased for the first batch should be used first.

 

[s33k3r]

For those that still don't have their Pandora, anyone knows if it's possible to move a first batch preorder to the second batch?

 

[Blue Protoman]

No.

 

[milkshake]

For those that still don't have their Pandora, anyone knows if it's possible to move a first batch preorder to the second batch?

this wouldnt make a difference as if the hardware upgrade becomes reality all those waiting for their pandora either batch 1 or 2 will receive the upgraded hardware.

 

[Invader Amoto]

you are not entitled to anything more than what you paid for: A Pandora. That's it. You knew what you were preordering, and you got it. Just because there is a new version with better hardware (if it happens), you are not entitled to have one.

Not on either side of this argument but what you said does not make sense since everyone ordered the same pandora (as advertised with the same specs).


This means everyone technically shuold receive the same pandora, you see when Blue Protoman ordered it the specs where the same as when joe bloggs ordered it, so do you think its 100% fair that just because blue protoman got his pandora first that he shuold have the inferior product even though both blue and the joe blogs who is still still waiting actually purchased the same device?


ill let you think about that for a while.


Also in regards to saving money surly the remaining SOCs purchased for the first batch should be used first.

My point is that he paid for a specific product, and he got one. I paid for that same specific product, I didn't get one yet. I am expecting the exact same thing that Protoman has, and I would be perfectly satisfied with that. But, if OPT decides to change the specifics of that product, they will tell me, and if I don't want it, I can cancel, or I can change my expectations of what I paid for.


A positive for me (better Pandora) is not a negative for you (original Pandora).

 

[milkshake]

A positive for me (better Pandora) is not a negative for you (original Pandora).

well to me it kind of is since we both paid for the same device when in fact you got the better product yet I was the first person to purchase the device?


but as I have said in other posts its not so much of an issue as long as OP gives existing owners the possibility of sending back the PCB to be upgraded to the new SOC (at cost of the customer of course and after all the pre-orders have been sent out).

 

[notaz]

In either case exactly the same pandora for future batches as older ones is impossible simply because some components went EOL and are impossible to get any more. It's probably possible to maintain the specs, but things like chip revision and likely RAM bank configurations will have to change.

 

[EvilDragon]

A positive for me (better Pandora) is not a negative for you (original Pandora).

well to me it kind of is since we both paid for the same device when in fact you got the better product yet I was the first person to purchase the device?

Don't forget there are still MANY people who ordered October 2008 waiting for their unit. They ordered at the same time as so many who already got their Pandora, but have to wait a lot longer.


Also, the price back than was way cheaper than nowadays, so you get a more recent version because you either paid more or waited longer than others.

 

[milkshake]

Don't forget there are still MANY people who ordered October 2008 waiting for their unit. They ordered at the same time as so many who already got their Pandora, but have to wait a lot longer.


Also, the price back than was way cheaper than nowadays, so you get a more recent version because you either paid more or waited longer than others.

of course i appreciate and undertsand all this ED but im sure alot of people would be narked about this, but I dont midn really, I would apreciate an upgrade option for existing pandora owners as that would apease and calm alot of people that might be upset/frustrated about this.

 

[gadgetoid]

Neither do I, that's not what I wanted at all. I just wanna be able to join the ranks of beefier hardware without paying another $500.

1. Sell older Pandora on Ebay.
   
2. Buy newer one.
   
3. ???
   
4. Profit.
   

 

[F_Slim]

of course i appreciate and undertsand all this ED but im sure alot of people would be narked about this, but I dont midn really, I would apreciate an upgrade option for existing pandora owners as that would apease and calm alot of people that might be upset/frustrated about this.

Since the cost of a new board alone makes 2/3 of the price (and I guess we are talking about the regular price, not the pre-order price), the upgrade would have to be as expensive though ... plus shipping.


Not sure if it's worth doing in that case, or if you might just as well get a complete second unit instead. But I fully agree that there should be such an option!

 

[Caine]

On the other hand, I think Caine shouldn't have made that comment about not supporting older hardware. Not all developers think like that - I know I would personally want to squeeze as much performance as possible out of anything I was working on if it would mean getting it working on all Pandora hardware out there.

Sorry for intentionally fueling the fire there, I should not have said it like that. Though, I regard the Pandora more as a tiny computer than as a handheld gaming console. Within the computer world it is very natural that later purchases get better hardware for the same money. I'm perfectly fine with having the Pandora's hardware specs vary like that of desktops.


Let me rephrase it a bit. Would I do some extra effort (e.g. add lower quality settings) to also make software run on older units? Yes of course, unless it requires insane amounts of effort. Would I hold back on making software which could only run on the newer unit? I.e. design for the least common denominator only. No, I would not.


You have nothing to worry about, I'm not a very active developer and all my software so far can run while underclocked.

On the other hand, I think Caine shouldn't have made that comment about not supporting older hardware.

I think he misspoke there.

Not really. I was in a mischievous mood and decided to phrase it more strongly then I really meant in order to make a point (the point being, that in my opinion we shouldn't fix the hardware specs). It was intended to start a discussion about this point. In essence, do we want the Pandora to be a handheld gaming console or a portable microcomputer? I opt for the latter though I fully understand the anger this move would cause for some.

More than likely what he means is exactly what has already been going on with overclocking: not everything runs well at stock 500 or even 600Mhz, but developers are still releasing applications with caveats like "must overclock to 800Mhz to get good framerates". So too would it be for newer applications: they'd still run on the older CPU, but they may be slow. Where before a dev might say "this was a proof of concept and will never run respectably on the Pandora so I'm stopping development" now they can say "this is a work in progress: it'll never run respectably on the old CPU but should work well on the new one"

Yes, that is a nicer way to phrase it, and that is most likely how it would work in practice.

I said I was willing to pay for it, even if upgrades aren't available until all the other preorders are finished.

You said you were entitled to one for a modest fee. I don't think a new board would be a modest fee.

 

[F_Slim]

I said I was willing to pay for it, even if upgrades aren't available until all the other preorders are finished.

You said you were entitled to one for a modest fee. I don't think a new board would be a modest fee.

In the other thread ED said it would have to be of the order of €200 ... so it depends on your definition of a "modest fee", compared to the pre-order price only you might consider it ridiculously high (almost double the price) ... if you consider that in total you'll end up at the current price (and you probably had fun with your unit for a year until it will be possible to finally make an upgrade) you might call it as fair as it can possibly get!