GPD Win (x86 Computer / Palmtop)

[Alperoot]

@Chip : Then I can't follow you... I thought that the main point of Win 10 was the ability to be used as a real PC but portable, and that require precision, but you tell that the main usage will be with touch interfaces ? Then what's the point ? Android is better with that...

@Alpibrine28 : Plug in a keyboard ?

I mean mouse

 

[EvilDragon]

What about all those games that were designed for mouse speed and precision? I guess that mostly related to older games though, with modern AAA PC games tending to be much more pad friendly.

True, but while the Intel SoC is fast for a mobile CPU, it is still about as fast as PCs were 2008.
So you will mostly be playing a bit older titles.

Then just plug in a mouse?

Well, not very practical when sitting in a train.

Call to Power 2 is perfectly playable on the Pandora, e.g., but the buttons are too small to hit them properly with a capacitive screen.

About the touchscreen:
It doesn't make sense calling one superior over the other.
Both have advantages and disadvantages.

A capacitive one is more sensitive, but you can't use it with thin styluses.
The resistive one is more accurate here, works with any cheap stylus, but the picture quality is decreased (because of an additional foil).
A capacitive one has multitouch, but you can't use it in the rain (as any raindrop confuses the touch).

So there's no better or not better, there is only a better suited or not better suited one.
I think for PCs and desktop systems, a resistive is better suited, for mobile phones (which you often hold in one hand and only use one finger), capacitive ones are far superior.

For the Win? I would choose a resistive one, but they're harder to source, it's more work these days.
Yes, Win10 is touch optimized, but not most of the games / apps you want to run with.

But that's subjective. It doesn't make sense to say one is better than the other. If you want to compare them, you need to do it properly, objective.
Write down what's good and what's bad.

 

[lukey]

I want to do Stuff like this:
This is simply not possible with an capacitive Touchscreen. I tried it with an Note2 but the Stylus was trash an the Wacom Technology that was used only had half of the Screen resolution.

 

[Chip]

I guess we just have to agree to disagree. For my purposes - specifically as little as I would use the touch function at all - the tradeoffs of resistive aren't worth the precision. Not by a long shot.

As far as gaming performance on the Z8500, there's a few devices already using the chip that can give you a pretty good idea of what to expect. Specifically, the Asus transformerbook T1000HA has the same SoC, same 4GB RAM, and nearly the same display resolution (1280x800). Here's some videos of that device playing (relatively) recent/modern games:

• CS:GO, Dota 2, Skyrim, TF2, COD:MW3
• Burnout Paradise
• Minecraft
• LoL
• Dolphin Wii (on a slower Z8300 w/ 2GB)
• PCSX2 (on an old bay trail atom)

This chip isn't a gaming powerhouse by any stretch of the imagination, but with the settings turned way down, it will play most games at a reasonable framerate. Maybe not every AAA titles from the last year or three, but most games will run. That gives the win a pretty massive game library to draw from.

 

[Exophase]

They've actually officially stated they'll be using Z8550, which is a little faster.

 

[ThinkPad]

This is simply not possible with an capacitive Touchscreen. I tried it with an Note2 but the Stylus was trash an the Wacom Technology that was used only had half of the Screen resolution.

If you ask some professional artists/designers, you will find out that all of them are using WACOM products.
It is far more easy to draw on a Samsung Note, or any other WACOM device, just because their stylus is active with multiple pressure levels.
The stylus of N900 is just a piece of plastic.

 

[lukey]

Yeah i have an Wacom Tablett, but the Note 2 was just horrible. Resistive Touchscreens also have multiple pressure levels. MyPaint on the Pandora can also make use of it.

 

[EvilDragon]

If you ask some professional artists/designers, you will find out that all of them are using WACOM products.

Yes, the professional ones, which cost about as much or even more as the Note 2 did cost.
The Note 2 was (as the name says) mostly meant to be used for notes, so they made it cheaper but less accurate than their big tablets.
Which is more than enough for taking notes

It is far more easy to draw on a Samsung Note, or any other WACOM device, just because their stylus is active with multiple pressure levels.
The stylus of N900 is just a piece of plastic.

The Pandora has a pressure sensitive touch (255 levels, AFAIR) and that's actively being used by MyPaint.

 

[vcoleiro1]

There are many fine tip active styluss (non bluetooth) on the market now that work with plain capacitive screens.

Just look up fine tip capacitive stylus and focus on the non bluetooth variety on YT

 

[rygD]

This is a response to WizardStan from the other thread.

It's actually that last part that has me worried here because there's already several forum posts contrasting the Pyra with the GPD Win, but that's a topic for the other post

Yes, but since you brought it up: as I mentioned in whichever thread, it is a concern of mine as well. Other than those of us here that are vocally supportive of the Pyra over the Win, how big is this niche? We can't count lurkers here or the people that are waiting for a prototype or actual release of the Win to jump on that bandwagon. Just consider the number of preorders for both so far. Honestly, I would back the Pyra even without game controls and cellular module, because it is a Linux palmtop. Those two extras make it pretty irresistible for me, but I think that some others only want a pocket sized computer with keyboard. Win will probably get most of those in Japan and those that care more about price or Windows in the rest of the world (although the current numbers seem really small). Pyra is probably going to get those that want Linux, more freedom, long term support, upgrades/hackability, mobile data (and possibly calls and messages), or a thought out keyboard with backlight. Are there really only around 1500 of us altogether left?

The upgradable CPU, the replaceable battery, the resistive screen, etc.
All features most don't see at all when taking a quick look and comparing the Win with the Pyra.

This needs to change. People need to know what's great about the Pyra and where the pricing comes from.

I guess I forgot about the replaceable battery, which is significant for those that expect it (me). Also, preference for different types of touchscreen (for use on a full desktop that is tiny) and nubs vs sticks (plus the strange location they have for L3 & R3, and that mouse mode switch and disabled controls). I think anyone that has had a slider keyboard on a smartphone knows that the paint will come off, which may make it hard to use, and it looks bad. Also, I have at least one of those keyboards where a couple of the keys are super sensitive and register key presses if you move your thumb over them, and another that doesn't register key presses sometimes (this and errors due to resorting to Swype may still be in some of my posts if I missed going back and fixing them). I don't know how much it will cost our (see, stupid Swype) how easy it will be to replace it. I am concerned the caps may come off the Pyra mat or cause markings to get messed up over time, but replacements will probably be available, and the Pyra is designed to be easy to work on.

Preach those features!

Labeling the win's wifi as inferior because it doesn't support 802.11a is kind of silly - nobody wants or uses a.

I see that on the linked chart, however the real issue between the Pyra and the Win for this is that in both cases the community asked for 5GHz to alleviate the problems associated with overcrowded freqs, and ED included it, GPD said that no one uses it so it won't be included (no one using it is THE reason to include it, even if it isn't popular in the country of origin).

Then just plug in a mouse?

Screw that, just use the nubs or sticks.

What about all those games that were designed for mouse speed and precision? I guess that mostly related to older games though, with modern AAA PC games tending to be much more pad friendly.

Mouse mode and nubs, although neither will probably be good enough, but at least you have the option without carrying extra stuff. This is how I play FPSs on my Pandora (single payer only).

 

[PowerGod]

The Pandora has a pressure sensitive touch (255 levels, AFAIR) and that's actively being used by MyPaint.

I suppose it wasn't just using the pressure levels, seemed to me it was also using the rapid change of coordinates to calculate the size of the pressure, when touching with a large surface

 

[ZXDunny]

Something like this?

Looking at that, the Pyra really only has one or two features over the GPD Win - I personally couldn't care less about cellular modems or 1.2TB of storage, but running Windows would be a major plus - and the GPD device would do that out the box rather than be a paid upgrade X years down the line, with no guarantee that the Pyra will ever be able to do it. And I couldn't give a toss about free software.

That said, I'll be getting a Pyra instead as I can port my apps to ARM with ease and I kinda like the Pandora and the community that goes with it.

But no, that chart really doesn't paint the Pyra in a very good light, and smacks of desperation and a knee-jerk reaction to competition.

D.

 

[vcoleiro1]

Actually , I like Lukey's chart. It seems like a good guide to understand both's specs. And it seems fairish in the comparison

 

[TrashyMG]

But no, that chart really doesn't paint the Pyra in a very good light, and smacks of desperation and a knee-jerk reaction to competition.

I wish I could be as cool and jaded as you Dunny.

 

[Chip]

I see that on the linked chart, however the real issue between the Pyra and the Win for this is that in both cases the community asked for 5GHz to alleviate the problems associated with overcrowded freqs, and ED included it, GPD said that no one uses it so it won't be included (no one using it is THE reason to include it, even if it isn't popular in the country of origin).

I think you're confusing 802.11a and 802.11ac. 802.11ac is the newish spec that is fast and operates on the comparatively uncrowded 5ghz band. According to the official specs, the pyra doesn't support this (nor will the gpdwin). The only spec that the pyra supports but the win doesn't is 802.11a - an extremely slow spec that hasn't been used by anybody in over a decade.

If the pyra spec page is out of date and it does support 802.11ac, then that's a legit win for the pyra.

 

[erico]

Just a little info on the note 2, which I own. It sucks to draw on it and the precision fucks up as you approach corners (it is really bad).
I have a 13 years old wacom tablet which works perfectly as if it was brand new.

I like the current Pyra´s touch tech, it will probably be as good as the caanoo if not way better, which is just awesome.

 

[Exophase]

Something like this?

Looks good. I think it's a better idea to have a broad and neutral comparison chart like this than something that looks purely like promotional material.

Some not-very-major comments:

- GPD Win's CPU should be listed as "1.44GHz to 2.40GHz depending on workload." That's preliminary, it could be limited to less, but for now that's what we know. It certainly won't be able to run all cores at that clock speed continuously, but by the sound of things Pyra probably won't be able to run both cores at 1.5GHz continuously either (and maybe "up to 1.5GHz depending on workload" would be appropriate there)
- Pandora 1GHz and Neo900's SoC is DM3730, it's not OMAP.
- Pandora's RAM is "Mobile DDR" (maybe you could get away with calling it LPDDR1), not plain DDR.
- Would need to hear from ED here but the battery on Pyra is almost certainly not 4.2V for anything but the start of its discharge curve. The flat-ish part of the discharge curve, the part the battery rating usually comes from, is probably 3.7V or 3.8V. Same thing with Pandora (3.7V AFAIK)
- Is the 200GB microSD listing assuming up to 56GB reserved by OS? If so that seems excessive.

 

[EvilDragon]

I think you're confusing 802.11a and 802.11ac. 802.11ac is the newish spec that is fast and operates on the comparatively uncrowded 5ghz band. According to the official specs, the pyra doesn't support this (nor will the gpdwin). The only spec that the pyra supports but the win doesn't is 802.11a - an extremely slow spec that hasn't been used by anybody in over a decade.

If the pyra spec page is out of date and it does support 802.11ac, then that's a legit win for the pyra.

Yes, those specs will need to be updated.
I've got the cost calculation from GC since a few days (so now I can calculate the price this week), and I think I'll keep the 5GHz capable module as well (it only adds 10 EUR to the costs).

 

[vcoleiro1]

- Is the 200GB microSD listing assuming up to 56GB reserved by OS? If so that seems excessive.

I think that 200GB is the largest uSD card you can get. Only SD cards can come in 256GB (or larger)

 

[rygD]

I think you're confusing 802.11a and 802.11ac. 802.11ac is the newish spec that is fast and operates on the comparatively uncrowded 5ghz band. According to the official specs, the pyra doesn't support this (nor will the gpdwin). The only spec that the pyra supports but the win doesn't is 802.11a - an extremely slow spec that hasn't been used by anybody in over a decade.

If the pyra spec page is out of date and it does support 802.11ac, then that's a legit win for the pyra.

Nah, I was throwing out the comparison of eleventywhatever, and focusing on the real difference on the chart. Sure, ac might be nice. There might also be people still using a. n also uses 5GHz (I actually had to design a network a year or two ago, and took advantage of some of the "weaknesses" of 5GHz for 802.11n). If it is there you can use it, and the side benefit is you can get 802.11a, too. Your average consumer may not know that, and might miss an important piece of info on that chart without that knowledge. It is better to just say it clearly so that confused people don't think "what, these are supposed to be better because they have 802.11a - an extremely slow spec that hasn't been used by anybody in over a decade?" and can instead say "oh, wow, maybe I SHOULD consider these because they have 5GHz, which means I won't have as much trouble due to congestion on those freqs!" or at least they know they might want to pick up a USB dongle thingy if going for a Pandora or Win if they are in an area where that is a major issue.

@EvilDragon might want to mention that the Pyra will have 5GHz on the specs page.