GPD Win (x86 Computer / Palmtop)

[b_o_b]

Is the Pyra 'advertised' as an alternative in the comments as well? Pyra might benefit from additional exposure there.

 

[WizardStan]

Continuing what I said here, this thought just completed itself in the back of my brain and has me worried.
There's already been a few forum posts comparing the Pyra with the GPD Win, with conclusions often running that the Win has a "better" CPU and can run Windows, therefore it is definitively better, or at least reasonable competition for those that can only afford one or the other. Even if it takes half a year or more to come out after the Pyra (or even especially if it takes that long) the damage may already be done: people holding off on buying a Pyra because they think something better is coming along "soon". And maybe it is better, maybe that keyboard and the control sticks will blow everyone away, but maybe it's not, and they rushed to campaign specifically for the reason that they wanted to draw attention away from EvilDragon.
If that's the case, then shortly after it is released there should be several reviews saying "don't get the Win, get the Pyra instead", at which point there should be a sharp uptick in sales, but during that waiting period I have doubts about how many people will take the plunge. And the longer production is delayed on their end, the longer EvilDragon would need to sustain himself on the hope that the Win flops.
Anywho, this is all wild speculation with incredibly vague notions of numbers. It could be the percentage of people that are willing to wait is small enough to not matter. It could be that such a plan actually raises more awareness and even if the percentages change, the volume increases and everything works out for everyone. Could be lots of things. I just wanted to get this out in the event that 8 months from now something does pop up that I can point to and say "ahah, I guessed right"

 

[Butterkeks]

Continuing what I said here, this thought just completed itself in the back of my brain and has me worried.
There's already been a few forum posts comparing the Pyra with the GPD Win, with conclusions often running that the Win has a "better" CPU and can run Windows, therefore it is definitively better, or at least reasonable competition for those that can only afford one or the other. Even if it takes half a year or more to come out after the Pyra (or even especially if it takes that long) the damage may already be done: people holding off on buying a Pyra because they think something better is coming along "soon". And maybe it is better, maybe that keyboard and the control sticks will blow everyone away, but maybe it's not, and they rushed to campaign specifically for the reason that they wanted to draw attention away from EvilDragon.
If that's the case, then shortly after it is released there should be several reviews saying "don't get the Win, get the Pyra instead", at which point there should be a sharp uptick in sales, but during that waiting period I have doubts about how many people will take the plunge. And the longer production is delayed on their end, the longer EvilDragon would need to sustain himself on the hope that the Win flops.
Anywho, this is all wild speculation with incredibly vague notions of numbers. It could be the percentage of people that are willing to wait is small enough to not matter. It could be that such a plan actually raises more awareness and even if the percentages change, the volume increases and everything works out for everyone. Could be lots of things. I just wanted to get this out in the event that 8 months from now something does pop up that I can point to and say "ahah, I guessed right"

I fear you may be right. I hope that their target audience is still different enough, preventing (enough) potential Pyra customers from waiting for the GPD win.
~2000 preorders within a few weeks should be no problem, I guess. Not with the pre-preorders & prototypes sold out in 2 days...

 

[EvilDragon]

Well, that's something we need to find out.
Keyboard will probably be subjective, some people prefer the small N900-like domecap keys, some prefer a Pandora-style keymat.

If the DPad is the same as on the XD, we'll have the better one (even my printed prototype one feels better), as it's mushy, missing a proper pivot and even a bit too small in my opinion.

Sticks / nubs are a mixed back. For mouse movement, the nubs are far superior than the sticks in my opinion (as mentioned, they feel awesome!), don't know for gaming... some might prefer sticks over nubs for gaming and vice versa.

What we need to do (and what I'll concentrate on for the next few weeks) is show off the features of the Pyra properly (with videos and on the website).

The upgradable CPU, the replaceable battery, the resistive screen, etc.
All features most don't see at all when taking a quick look and comparing the Win with the Pyra.

This needs to change. People need to know what's great about the Pyra and where the pricing comes from.

 

[fusion_power]

Well, that's something we need to find out.
Keyboard will probably be subjective, some people prefer the small N900-like domecap keys, some prefer a Pandora-style keymat.

If the DPad is the same as on the XD, we'll have the better one (even my printed prototype one feels better), as it's mushy, missing a proper pivot and even a bit too small in my opinion.

Sticks / nubs are a mixed back. For mouse movement, the nubs are far superior than the sticks in my opinion (as mentioned, they feel awesome!), don't know for gaming... some might prefer sticks over nubs for gaming and vice versa.

What we need to do (and what I'll concentrate on for the next few weeks) is show off the features of the Pyra properly (with videos and on the website).

The upgradable CPU, the replaceable battery, the resistive screen, etc.
All features most don't see at all when taking a quick look and comparing the Win with the Pyra.

This needs to change. People need to know what's great about the Pyra and where the pricing comes from.

Exactly. And this is what you have to point out if you do a crowdfunding campaign or more advertising for the Pyra. And please don't forget to mention what's already done, Pyra has (almost) finished case molds, finished hardware etc... If GPD is that successful with basicly nothing more than renderings and promises, it should be easy to make the Pyra successful. You just need to be fast enough. Time is not on our side, sadly.

 

[Chip]

I knew it was only a matter of time before something like this got made. I'm very interested to see how it turns out - though my expectations aren't exactly through the roof. Hardware quality certainly won't be on par with the pyra, but for half the price, that's understandable. There's no way I'm plunking down $300 for a WIN sight-unseen, but if it's not terrible, I'll likely buy one after they're readily available. Intel is really hitting the mobile/ultramini SoC ball out of the park with cherry trail, and this thing has a lot of promise.

If you're in the mood for a laugh, check out the GPD-WIN thread on dingoonity. Three quarters of it is the good old keyboard layout argument that we love to hate.

 

[b_o_b]

You can just forget about convincing Windows folks to buy anything more expensive, less slick, and (for them) running an obscure OS. ED just needs to find enough people to finance production that care about quality retro-gaming, open source, Linux, solid community, customer service, free support, hack ability, unique features (eg. 2 SD slots) and a device that is "community made" by hardcore enthusiast.
Also I think a great way to convince people is to share the "pandora story". A professionally produced podcast, video or well written article (or all) would be nice to be able to share on forums / IndieGogo comments. Revolution OS comes to mind...

 

[PowerGod]

I found particularly interesting the video, that someone with a prototype board put on the forum, were was showed how difficult is to use 2 Gb RAM on a Linux system... everytime I talk about that to Windows users no one believes me !!
It's pretty normal for Windows to use 2 Gb just for the main OS...

That video, that I can't find anymore (maybe was posted by @TrashyMG ?) should be more visible !!

 

[TrashyMG]

I found particularly interesting the video, that someone with a prototype board put on the forum, were was showed how difficult is to use 2 Gb RAM on a Linux system... everytime I talk about that to Windows users no one believes me !!
It's pretty normal for Windows to use 2 Gb just for the main OS...

That video, that I can't find anymore (maybe was posted by @TrashyMG ?) should be more visible !!

 

[levi]

Exactly. And this is what you have to point out if you do a crowdfunding campaign or more advertising for the Pyra. ;9

I'd argue against comparing your product against an alternative by name, at least, as that can be counterproductive, emphasising the name of an alternative (for some people) in their heads. But you can still emphasis that is has a proper d-pad with a pivot etc., so those comparisons can form the basis of your advertising emphasis IMO.

I'm not sure how many Windows fanboys are in our potential audience, but I suspect a majority of the people who bought a Pandora are gamers first, and computer users second, perhaps. As gamers we're used to various closed platforms from in game consoles. And perhaps emphasising that we expect to be able to play old DOS games and hopefully pre-milleniial Windows games might run well too.

 

[Kiga]

The upgradable CPU, the replaceable battery, the resistive screen, etc.
All features most don't see at all when taking a quick look and comparing the Win with the Pyra.

This needs to change. People need to know what's great about the Pyra and where the pricing comes from.

Yes, that's why I was saying

IMO you should complete the comparison, then make a screenshot whitout the Pandora side and then remove gpd win from Pyra wiki.
That way you conserve a clear comparison between Pyra and gpd win which you post here on the forum. You can link the image to whoever argue about gpd win in comment sections and forums or link to the forum post so that you also bring people here.
Everyone will know how much Pyra is better than gpd win plus whitout going through the pain of arguing.

Something like a an infographic comparing Pyra and GPD win would be a great way to counter misinformation. Even a simple table but a clear one The infographic should be clear, one should be able to catch the idea of how much Pyra have more than Gpd win in a seconde thanks to color or emptiness. Then one potential buyer would obviously seek to really inform himself and the infographic should contain a 2nd level of informations, maybe a 3rd.

The 1st being the color and/or emptiness/fullness (ex: pyra=green,gpd=red and/or pyra=cross,gpd=empty).
The 2nd being the title of the feature (ex: batterie replacement)
The 3rd being feature purpose (ex: you can have a spare batterie when you're on the go, you can replace the batterie when it is sold). If there is a 3rd it should be discrete so that the infographic doesn't looks like an advertisment.​

About non technical informations like:

-Pyra history, pandora/pyra were born first
-The community and why it makes a huge difference on what you will be able to do with your device,
-Modularity: cpu, screen
-Windows 10 issues especially with a small screen
-Keyboard issues
...​

They don't suit a green/red schema. I don't know exactly how to display them, they should be apart but in evidence, exposed in a way that still looks as much as possible like an objective comparison(which it is) and not a Pyra advocacy.

Well I don't have good skills or time to do this so if someone sees interest in it maybe he will do it, I think a thread where we could list every Pyra advantages (and gpd ones) would be a good thing. Something like "Pyra vs Gpd Win". We could discuss elements to put in the infographic and the form of it, that could be a community project with xfc files, and the best version would be put in the first post of the thread.
Finally we would have an easy way to show clearly wether it is in forums or comments section an objective comparison of Pyra and Gpd win by simply linking an image or the forum thread.

 

[lukey]

....

Something like this?

 

[Chip]

It's a good start, though I'd argue it's a bit biased.

Some of the color choices are arbitrary or misleading. Capacitive multitouch is definitely superior to resistive, especially when using an OS specifically designed for touch input. Labeling the win's wifi as inferior because it doesn't support 802.11a is kind of silly - nobody wants or uses a. The keypad is problematic in it's current layout, but it's still very much under development. And there are those who would complain about any layout on any device - something this subjective this probably shouldn't even be a category.

And for a truly fair comparison, you should include the price.

 

[PowerGod]

Capacitive multitouch is definitely superior to resistive only when using an OS specifically designed for touch input.

Fixed.

As @EvilDragon has explained before, using a normal PC interface with a capacitive screen just lacks precision, you can run Photoshop on that device, but you will find difficult to draw or use the menu using the touch.

 

[Chip]

That's kinda my point, though. Win10 is specifically designed for touch input. Honestly, touch panels in general are less than optimal for a clamshell device. I hardly ever use the touchscreen on my pandora, and I never use it on my laptop. Since neither of the devices do a 360 fold for tablet-style use, it's kind of a fringe feature.

But for casual use, being able to occasionally poke the screen with your finger is a heck of a lot easier than digging out a stylus. Between that and the superior appearance and durability of a gorillaglass panel compared to a not-quite-transparent and scratch-prone resistive layer, I would certainly consider the capacitive panel to be "better".

 

[Alperoot]

Fixed.

As @EvilDragon has explained before, using a normal PC interface with a capacitive screen just lacks precision, you can run Photoshop on that device, but you will find difficult to draw or use the menu using the touch.

Then just plug in a mouse?
Really, I don't see the point. Of course, the resistive touchscreen that Pandora/Pyra has is superior when it comes to precision, and (a bit off topic but) you need to install games before you can try them but at least it can run them whereas Pyra won't be able to run a big amount of x86/Windows app... I guess b_o_b gets the point on there

You can just forget about convincing Windows folks to buy anything more expensive, less slick, and (for them) running an obscure OS. ED just needs to find enough people to finance production that care about quality retro-gaming, open source, Linux, solid community, customer service, free support, hack ability, unique features (eg. 2 SD slots) and a device that is "community made" by hardcore enthusiast.

 

[levi]

That's kinda my point, though. Win10 is specifically designed for touch input.

What about all those games that were designed for mouse speed and precision? I guess that mostly related to older games though, with modern AAA PC games tending to be much more pad friendly.

 

[PowerGod]

@Chip : Then I can't follow you... I thought that the main point of Win 10 was the ability to be used as a real PC but portable, and that require precision, but you tell that the main usage will be with touch interfaces ? Then what's the point ? Android is better with that...

@Alpibrine28 : Plug in a keyboard ?

 

[FaeMinx]

But for casual use, being able to occasionally poke the screen with your finger is a heck of a lot easier than digging out a stylus. Between that and the superior appearance and durability of a gorillaglass panel compared to a not-quite-transparent and scratch-prone resistive layer, I would certainly consider the capacitive panel to be "better".

I need to downvote this and can't find the button for it.

 

[Alperoot]

@Chip : Then I can't follow you... I thought that the main point of Win 10 was the ability to be used as a real PC but portable, and that require precision, but you tell that the main usage will be with touch interfaces ? Then what's the point ? Android is better with that...

@Alpibrine28 : Plug in a keyboard ?

I mean mouse