GPD Win (x86 Computer / Palmtop)

[EvilDragon]

"Simultaneous use of mouse and all other controls" This seems somewhat disingenuous to me. The Pandora and Pyra have to switch between mouse and joystick modes too. As far as I can tell the main difference is that on the Pandora and Pyra the switching is done in software, rather than in hardware. They certainly can't be used in both modes simultaneously.

Well, yes and no. You could use the left nub as joystick and the right one as mouse.
On the Pyra, you'd still have the nub buttons for the mouse clicks as well.

Also, right now, the Pyra uses the same system as the Pandora, but as a few people already mentioned, we should configure them as normal input devices (without special modes) which can be used by any program or X for whatever they want (mouse or joystick)

 

[Exophase]

Do you have a link to one of those 256GB uSD cards?. I just came from a thread on another forum where they were talking about how 200GB is the max you can get uSD cards. And that was only released last year
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer...rd-is-not-much-use-to-samsung-galaxy-s6-users <- World's largest capacity uSD card announced in march last year

There has been talk of this 512GB beast, but I don't think it's released yet (keeps getting delayed). http://www.cnet.com/au/news/microdia-will-sell-a-1000-ish-512gb-microsd-come-july/

Either way, I haven't come across a 256GB uSD card. Well, not unless it was fake as one Dingoonity member just recently bought.

I think you're right, the ones I thought I found are probably all fake.

The whole situation looks very weird, I have no idea why microSD cards suddenly stopped at a strange non-power-of-two value then sat there for like a year. There must be a good explanation for this limit, I just can't find it.

 

[Neelix]

Well, yes and no. You could use the left nub as joystick and the right one as mouse.
On the Pyra, you'd still have the nub buttons for the mouse clicks as well.

Also, right now, the Pyra uses the same system as the Pandora, but as a few people already mentioned, we should configure them as normal input devices (without special modes) which can be used by any program or X for whatever they want (mouse or joystick)

Yeah, but just because there happens to be a hardware switch for a mouse mode on the GPD doesn't mean you couldn't use software to achieve a similar effect, and it's not like there isn't already Windows software that can make a joystick act as a mouse.

I just can't help thinking that people are seeing "Hardware switch for mouse or gamepad mode" and are thinking that that somehow indicates limitations that may not actually exist. I think it's probably one of those things where we'll have to wait and see how they actually end up implementing it, but I suspect it's probably just a storm in a teacup.

-Neelix

 

[Chip]

that somehow indicates limitations that may not actually exist

Exactly. It's not as though the buttons are physically disconnected when you throw the switch. The switch is simply tied to an IO pin on the SoC, and what the system does based on that input is determined by software. I wouldn't put it past GPD to get it wrong the first time around, but they seem to be responsive enough to customer demands that they would probably fix it (with a simple driver update, because windows) after people complained.

What I'm really hoping is that their gamepad drivers will allow switching between directinput and xinput. There are too many games that only work well (or at all) with one or the other.

 

[Haraldur]

Going by GPD's own advertising, it appears that one cannot use the physical DPAD, left joystick nor the buttons A, B, X, Y, L2 and R2. Obviously there is not "Simultaneous use of mouse and all other controls". If GPD's own statements are incorrect (which I doubt) then we are blameless until corrected.

 

[Chip]

But again, that's a software "feature" that could be easily changed, and wouldn't affect most people anyway. The pyra has plenty of legitimate strengths - there's no need to grasp at straws.

I mean if you're going to reach that far to look for things the pyra has over the win, here's a list of things the win should be able to do that the pyra can't:

• Play 95%+ of all PC games
• Run any/all Windows software
• Steam game streaming
• Xbone game streaming
• DRMed content streaming (netflix, HBO-go, etc)
• Partial PS2 emulation
• Gamecube/Wii emulation

Those are all legit strengths that the majority of potential buyers are going to care more about than whether or not you can use the mouse and dpad at the same time.

 

[EvilDragon]

But again, that's a software "feature" that could be easily changed, and wouldn't affect most people anyway.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.
This would mean they would need to write a software driver that handles that - it will be WAY easier handling this in hardware, just switching between to different ICs.
And GPD usually takes the easier approach, so I can imagine that's a hardware switch.

I mean if you're going to reach that far to look for things the pyra has over the win, here's a list of things the win should be able to do that the pyra can't:

Steam game streaming

From the Steam website:

Network:
We recommend using a wired network for the best streaming experience. People have had some success with powerline networks and wireless N and AC networks with good signal, though your experience may vary.

If the GPD Win only has wireless A, then it might be unplayable.
Especially Wireless chipsets for mobile devices usually are a bit worse than normal chipsets (to save power).

Xbone game streaming

Same here, except that Microsoft doesn't only RECOMMEND wireless N or AC, but they have that as a REQUIREMENT on their support page.
See here: https://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox...me-streaming#ed0e9e73cfd44b8c8b2c471a41610ad3

DRMed content streaming (netflix, HBO-go, etc)

I don't see why that shouldn't work with the Pyra. Netflix and Amazon Prime now work without much issues on Linux systems, it's not like it was a few years ago.
Yes, you need to fiddle around a bit more, that's for sure, it will definitely be more easy and straightforward on the Win

PS2 emulation

You think the GPD Win can do this?
Dream on, a PS2 emulator on a handheld is still far, far away.
My Core i7 with top-notch graphics card still stutters sometimes, and that one should be at least 4 - 5 times faster than the GPD Win.
Most games will be a slideshow.

Gamecube/Wii emulation

It's a bit better here - but also many games suffer from speed issues on my i7.
I guess some simple ones will be playable.

Those are all legit strengths that the majority of potential buyers are going to care more about than whether or not you can use the mouse and dpad at the same time.

Well, yes, at first glance.
As soon as you take a closer look, you can see they most likely will not work properly, like Wifi speed being too slow (so it doesn't help that the app can be installed and runs).

So yes, for Windows gaming, the Win will certainly be better, and the OS will be a lot more polished at the beginning.
We need to add powersaving modes, etc.
That will take time, it's a lot of work - but as with the Pandora: It will eventually happen at one time.

For the normal, casual gamer, the Win might be better until the work has happened on the Pyra.

 

[Haraldur]

But again, that's a software "feature" that could be easily changed

How do you know? I know nothing, of course, but it may be that they thought: "hey, modifying Windows 10 would be hard, so why not simply implement the switching in hardware?"

Also, if it is not a hardware limitation, then why would they ever shut off the functionality of all the other buttons? It makes no sense at all.

I mean if you're going to reach that far to look for things the pyra has over the win, here's a list of things the win should be able to do that the pyra can't:

• Play 95%+ of all PC games
• Run any/all Windows software
• Steam game streaming
• Xbone game streaming
• DRMed content streaming (netflix, HBO-go, etc)
• PS2 emulation
• Gamecube/Wii emulation

That is all covered by the field "Microsoft Windows x86 compatibility", which for the GPD WIN is "Native x86". Perhaps there should be an explanation for those who do not understand the implications, in a footnote, but one field is enough.

 

[SNESFAN]

While these may not be the most demanding of games for those systems, it shows some games, and not just 2d games should be playable on the z8550

PS2 on Z8500

gamecube/wii on z8500

I use steam streaming on 802.11G 2.4ghz networks and rarely run into bandwidth issues. Sometimes when my kids are streaming netflix on the same channel it will show a bit of latency and drop the stream, but not often.Wireless N has no problems at 720p and can even stream 1080 if the network is mostly unused. The important thing is to have your host computer on a wired network to the router, and the clients on wifi.

ED, why are you suggesting the Win will only have wireless A? It doesn't even advertise A, it advertises B/G/N

 

[Chip]

This would mean they would need to write a software driver that handles that

There is already plenty of software that does exactly this. There are at least two FOSS programs (antimicro and qjoypad) that I found in one google search, either of which could be enabled/disabled via a hardware switch via an incredibly simple "driver". It's probably less than an hour's worth of work to set up once vs paying for an additional chip in every device. I'd be truly shocked if they didn't take the cheaper option.

If the GPD Win only has wireless A, then it might be unplayable.
...
Same here, except that Microsoft doesn't only RECOMMEND wireless N or AC, but they have that as a REQUIREMENT on their support page.

The win supports wireless N, which meets the requirements for both services. I've never bothered streaming from by xbone, but I have used steam streaming several times on my C720 over 2.4GHz wireless N, and it's perfectly acceptable. Lag is unnoticeable on all but the twitchiest games. Unless you have dozens of wireless devices in your house (or a really crappy router), there is no problem streaming games at 720p over N.

Netflix and Amazon Prime now work without much issues on Linux systems

On ARM linux? As far as I can tell, the only way to get netflix on an ARM linux machine is to go through an incredibly convoluted process of streming the video on a desktop, then re-streaming to the ARM device using VLC or similar. Both netflix and amazon prime require a "trusted" browser - chrome is trusted, but chromium is not. There is no chrome build for ARM. Is there an android emulator/RTE for linux ARM? Perhaps you could run the android app in that. Otherwise, I don't see how it could be done.

Dream on, a PS2 emulator on a handheld is still far, far away.

See above. It's not butter-smooth, and some games will likely be unplayable, but PS2 is definitely possible on a Z8500. Same for GC/Wii, only with fewer exceptions.

Sure, 5GHz AC wifi would be better than 2.4GHz N, but N is still good enough for streaming videos and games at 720p. Yes, the keypad design on the win is less than optimal, but I've used worse. True, the pyra will almost certainly have longer battery life and has the potential for something like 4x the storage space, but 6hrs and 192GB ain't too shabby. There are things that the pyra does better, but the win does them all well enough for what it costs. The bigger issue is that there are things which the win does, but which the pyra can't do at all. And those things are much bigger deals to someone like me who just wants to play some decent games from the last decade.

I'm not trying to minimize what you're doing with the pyra, or shill for a competing system which doesn't actually exist yet and which I may not even buy. I'm just trying to make it clear that this comparison chart doesn't come anywhere close to showing the real picture. The win has a potential game library that is an order of magnitude larger than what the pyra ever will. From the perspective of someone shopping for a handheld gaming system, that's far more important than any number of minor trumps.

 

[EvilDragon]

While these may not be the most demanding of games for those systems, it shows some games, and not just 2d games should be playable on the z8550

PS2 on Z8500

gamecube/wii on z8500

Well, both stutter and don't play at fullspeed, and the Mario game REALLY isn't that demanding, and Kingdom Hearts at this area doesn't have any enemies, etc, so I expect to run both A LOT slower when something happens on the screen.
Especially transparency effects slow down PCSX2 horribly, and there's nothing happening here.

I use steam streaming on 802.11G 2.4ghz networks and rarely run into bandwidth issues. Sometimes when my kids are streaming netflix on the same channel it will show a bit of latency and drop the stream, but not often.Wireless N has no problems at 720p and can even stream 1080 if the network is mostly unused. The important thing is to have your host computer on a wired network to the router, and the clients on wifi.

On a WIRELESS device? As mentioned, these are often slower. None of my mobile phones I had was faster than 1MB/s on Wifi.

ED, why are you suggesting the Win will only have wireless A? It doesn't even advertise A, it advertises B/G/N

I saw someone mention somewhere that it was only A, I didn't check on IndieGogo.
That's also why I've written "IF it has..."

There is already plenty of software that does exactly this. There are at least two FOSS programs (antimicro and qjoypad) that I found in one google search, either of which could be enabled/disabled via a hardware switch via an incredibly simple "driver". It's probably less than an hour's worth of work to set up once vs paying for an additional chip in every device. I'd be truly shocked if they didn't take the cheaper option.

The cheaper option is hardware. Adding a simple switch costs a few cent.
Also, why add a hardware switch if you can simply use these programs? Then the switch would only complicate things.

I don't say it IS made in hardware, but I THINK it is. It is a risk you have to consider, as no one knows about it yet. So I would be careful with saying "Ah, no big deal, that's only a software switch, it can be fixed".

On ARM linux? As far as I can tell, the only way to get netflix on an ARM linux machine is to go through an incredibly convoluted process of streming the video on a desktop, then re-streaming to the ARM device using VNC or similar. Both netflix and amazon prime require a "trusted" browser - chrome is trusted, but chromium is not. There is no chrome build for ARM. Is there an android emulator/RTE for linux ARM? Perhaps you could run the android app in that. Otherwise, I don't see how it could be done.

I've not tried on ARM, but I know I had it running on Chromium with a plugin in a wrapper. Something that can also be done with the Pyra using ExaGear.
Heck, I've been playing Windows games on the Pyra using Wine as well.
Yes, someone needs to set that up, but as we have a package system similar to pnd, I'm sure someone will do that, so the end user simply has to install the browser.

The other way would be an Android wrapper (multiple ones are in the works) which means you could simply run the Netflix app.

See above. It's not butter-smooth, and some games will likely be unplayable, but PS2 is definitely possible on a Z8500. Same for GC/Wii, only with fewer exceptions.

From what I've seen on the videos, it will be more like Nintendo64 on the Pandora.
Some simple games are playable, but even those will have slowdowns.

As said, showing off Kingdom Hearts at an area where nothing happens is not anything that convinces me (especially as it still runs at about 40 - 50 frames here already).
Show me some PS2 games where there's really something going on, with transparency effects, etc.
Those are what slows down the emulation.

Same for the Wii emulator as well.

You know what's funny?
You mention you want a fair comparison chart, yet everything you post is VERY GPD Win biassed (even if you say otherwise).
You take things for granted on the Win that are not yet tested or known, yet you also mention things will NOT run on the Pyra (like Netflix, etc.), even though this also hasn't been tested.

Until someone tries, no one can tell.

So until these are really tested, they should be mentioned with a huge question marks on BOTH comparison charts.

 

[rygD]

I saw someone mention somewhere that it was only A, I didn't check on IndieGogo.
That's also why I've written "IF it has..."

The confusion is probably partially my fault, as I was trying to "translate" the wifi section of the comparison chart. I was saying that the reason there was green for Pyra and Neo900 is not because of A but because that A means it has 5GHz in addition to 2.4GHz, while Pandora and Win only have 2.4 (thus, no A).
[doublepost=1459237315,1459236902][/doublepost]

Heck, I've been playing Windows games on the Pyra using Wine as well.

Yeah, yeah, rub it in our faces that you are one of only a few people on the planet that can say you played ANY game, or did ANYTHING, on a Pyra. Make some for the rest of us!

 

[comradekingu]

rygD:

Pretty sure the 5GHz is for the n-band, all-though 801.11.a operated on that as-well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11n-2009#Comparison

 

[EvilDragon]

Yep, N is 5GHz, that's probably where I read it then

 

[EvilDragon]

Yeah, yeah, rub it in our faces that you are one of only a few people on the planet that can say you played ANY game, or did ANYTHING, on a Pyra. Make some for the rest of us!

Actually, I didn't play anything yet on the Pyra, I only played on the devboard... and by far not as much as some others here

I did play Within a deep forest and Knytt Stories though, which was enough to make me happy

Knytt Underground also worked, but dog slow because it used software 3D (missing driver)

 

[rygD]

ck, that is what I was trying to get at earlier when describing it and ac and a were mentioned. Trust me, I know plenty about networking. I do it professionally, have a formal education and degree in it (and working on a higher one), I have been playing around with it for nearly 20 years, and have worked on networks using very unique equipment (testing viability for deployment on a large scale, for example) and such. It is true that I don't usually work with wifi, but for several years most of what I was working with included a variety of other wireless technologies, including a limited use, supposedly more secure, alternative to wifi.

Actually, I didn't play anything yet on the Pyra, I only played on the devboard...

That is terrible to hear. Are things at a point where you could play a game on the prototype if you wanted to, just so you could say you did (and make pics/video)?

 

[Neelix]

The cheaper option is hardware. Adding a simple switch costs a few cent.
Also, why add a hardware switch if you can simply use these programs? Then the switch would only complicate things.

I don't say it IS made in hardware, but I THINK it is. It is a risk you have to consider, as no one knows about it yet. So I would be careful with saying "Ah, no big deal, that's only a software switch, it can be fixed".

When it comes down to it though, how the switch is implemented isn't really relevant. Based on that graphic that was posted earlier it looks like all the controls are active in gamepad mode, and I know that existing software can be used to implement a joystick as mouse mode, with all the same flexibility as the Pyra has, so the fact that some controls will apparently be disabled when using the native mouse mode is very likely a non-issue.

My point is that we should be focusing any comparison on the Pyra's strengths rather than making a big deal out of a perceived weakness in the GPD that may not actually exist.

-Neelix

 

[SNESFAN]

Well, both stutter and don't play at fullspeed, and the Mario game REALLY isn't that demanding, and Kingdom Hearts at this area doesn't have any enemies, etc, so I expect to run both A LOT slower when something happens on the screen.
Especially transparency effects slow down PCSX2 horribly, and there's nothing happening here.

I never said full speed, I said playable, they aren't exactly the slideshows as you were suggesting with your "my 4x-5x as powerful desktop struggles with PS2" it looks like the z8500 struggles. I do feel there are likely to be some games that aren't quite as playable, but until I get a chance to actually have my hand at one, you got to work with what you got.

I didn't make the demos, I just found them, if I could find better representations of the state of PS2/GC/WII on the z8500 or z8550 trust me, I would. I strive for transparency and remaining unbiased. Something I used to really respect you for. Now...?

Let me ask you, if having a conversion about the pandora, how would you describe the N64, dreamcast, or PSP? How about some of notaz's projects like the unofficial diablo 2 or starcraft ports?

On a WIRELESS device? As mentioned, these are often slower. None of my mobile phones I had was faster than 1MB/s on Wifi.

yes, on a baytrail windows tablet. I never bench-marked it to tell the exact throughput. The nvidia shield is a mobile device as well, and that is what it was made for (nvidia suggested wireless N 5ghz for their services)

 

[rygD]

Let me ask you, if having a conversion about the pandora, how would you describe the N64, dreamcast, or PSP? How about some of notaz's projects like the unofficial diablo 2 or starcraft ports?

From what I've seen on the videos, it will be more like Nintendo64 on the Pandora.
Some simple games are playable, but even those will have slowdowns.

My guess is fairly and honestly. Seems pretty unbiased since he said it looks like PS2/GC/Wii emulation on the Win will be close to how N64 is on the Pandora.

 

[Alperoot]

I guess we must wait for a prototype. Until then we wait a lot of videos from the Pyra prototype. Make us happy, ED and play popular things like Minecraft on the Pyra!

Q: Still nothing from 3D acceleration?