I am a pioneer. I am pioneering in being stupid enough being involved in such a project twice 
GPD Win (x86 Computer / Palmtop)
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The team made the Pandora, Pandora design "belong" to ED who was part of the team, the new team is partly the same. So my argument stand.
I am a pioneer. I am pioneering in being stupid enough being involved in such a project twice
Just quote somwhere I said someone evoke disgust in me instead of arguing. I said an action is disgusting (to me), period.
Finally some logic.
A baby Pyra aka gpd would be a good thing if it don't hinder the Pyra developpement but I think they intend to WIN over Pyra.
I want originality and quality to spread.
ZXDunny
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I don't think they're going to take anything away from the Pyra (unless it's all the people that want x86 for Win10 in a handheld - in which case those people were never going to be happy with a Pyra anyway).
We've dealt with originality - the Pandora and Pyra are not original concepts at all (though with a nod towards WizardStan's more literal interpretation of "innovation") and let's face it the quality of the Pyra is an unknown quantity at this point - and if we're extrapolating from the Pandora then I'd not get your hopes up. The Pandora was not quality in any way, shape or form - budget constraints and the quality of the parts they ended up with from manufacturers.
You do remember how bad the Pandora is, don't you? Case plastics cracking (and paint that wears off), barely usable keyboard, shoulder buttons that needed to be internally trimmed to fit, LCD cables that break when they flex, Batteries that don't sit properly in the compartment, broken Wifi, Nubs that fail with use, a GPU that has to have its driver changed to suit what you want to do with it, unusable USB 1 Host without a hub... The list goes on, and that's just the issues I've had with my unit.
The Pyra is already showing signs of similar issues with heat, screen issues with rotation needing a custom firmware/driver software... Who knows what else we'll find when we get the first production systems? The case plastics are better now, but the design is still inherited from the Pandora so if nothing else it'll be an ugly SOB to look at.
If the GPD Win can solve all those issues then they deserve to succeed - ED's tried very hard to fix his problems, and he's just one guy with a talented friend. GPD is a much bigger company, so the chances that they will do OK out of this are pretty high. And why should they not, if they put the work in?
D.
Please stop nodding and read closely, the only one interpretating here is you. "originality" is a relative concept, so I can use it here as I can also use "pioneer". If you need some explanation about what is "relative", ask.
When I use an handheld I usually look at the screen, not the back of it so I don't care if Pyra have a cute rounded shape as long as it hasen't some tacky fashion addition.
If GPD have issues you'll never know because they will never tell you, for exemple maybe they will need a rotator chip but they will not talk about it because they know some dumb customer could panic and call it an issue.
Mr_Loon
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No, my logic is that just because 2 devices share the same base concept it does not mean one is a knockoff of the other. Do you consider the Pyra to be a knockoff of the Pandora? Not sure if you're fully aware of the somewhat convoluted history of Pandora but they (Pyra & Pandora) are not made by the same company. ED arranged for the production of Pandora in Germany but neither created or owned the design. The concept was from Craig, the case design was from DaveC and the internals were designed by MWeston. None of these people have anything to do with Pyra.
Sadly your argument is based on an incorrect assumption and is therefore incorrect, at no point has ED ever owned the design of Pandora, even when it was being produced in Germany.
Just to clarify I do not consider the Pyra to be a Pandora knockoff despite the base concept being the same (pocketable mini PC with full gaming controls and HW Keyboard) and them looking superficially similar. This is due to the fact Pyra was designed without direct reference to the Pandora design. i.e. the case is not just a tweaked Pandora case, the internals were also designed from scratch. As well as the many other more obvious differences, modularity, gaming buttons, ports, speaker location etc.
I don't think you'll get much better from GPD here.
The GPD XD is nice, but the plastic is cheap and looks cheap. It might not crack (which was the fault of using the wrong plastic combined with shrinking issues), but it's not what I would call good quality.
I don't think the GPD Win will be different here.
That's okay, it doesn't need to be.
The keyboard... well, that's subjective.
I still prefer Pandoras keyboard over every other mobile phone keyboard I've used, and I know it's similar for other users as well.
While the GPD WIN keyboard will be more like a mobile keyboard (domecaps), the layout is taken from a normal keyboard which is not good for thumb-typing (which is what many members at Dingoonity already complained about).
So right now, the layout is worse than on the Pandora or Pyra (for thumb typing), reaching the middle buttons (HJK) is hard if you don't have very long fingers and whether you prefer domecaps or rubbermats totally depends on your own personal preference.
That's all fixed.
Hub is fixed, GPU will be a bit annoying, that's true. But then again, we at least provided software upgrades as good as possible, whereas for example the GPD XD will stick forever with Android 4 and an old kernel.
That's often the case with mobile devices.
Heat is as much an issue as it is in every modern smartphone / system.
Yes, SoCs get more efficient, but if you stress them to 100% for a longer period of time, they all have heat issues. Every smartphone I tried has that. They either get very hot until they switch off or the limit the SoC.
That's not a Pyra specific problem, that's what every modern SoC has right now.
I doubt that will be different with an Intel SoC.
And every LCD needs a driver in the kernel. We had to write one for ours anyways. And we added the rotation function directly into the system as well.
Does the GPD Win or other mobile devices similar chips? I don't know, but I know the rotator chip we're using is being used in millions of chinese mobile phones.
They don't produce it only for us.
That's our downside of being open about everything:
It seems like we have issues and use stuff that's not common.
But that's not true. Others just don't tell you about them.
GPD will have prototypes in April which are being tested until July / August (this is where we are right now with the Pyra).
Do you think they'll post if they have some driver / power issues or need to change something because of the heat the SoC produces?
No, they won't. They'll just let you know when the system is fully working.
However, there are other aspects that I think are important:
We try to have everything open as possible. The SSD/Display-Driver, for example, is OpenSource so you can compile any kernel with it and run it on the Pyra.
Same for all the components: The Wifi Chip, the 3G/4G Modem, etc.
Everything will have OpenSource drivers (probably some using binary blobs, but you can still use them). Only exception is the SGX, but we'll try to get the best from it as well.
All we know about the GPD WIN is that it will only support Windows 10.
Yes, maybe you can run Linux on the Intel SoC.
But what if you don't have the datasheet for the display and there's no driver? Then you will have a hard time getting that to work.
Same for WiFi: If there's no Linux support for the Wifi chip they choose, then you might need to use a dongle...
That's all stuff we don't know yet, but we will eventually find that out.
But yes, I've often thought whether I should post all updates that happen, as every issue is being seen as something that doesn't happen with other companies, whereas that is just the normal way a development works.
If the first prototypes wouldn't have any issues, you wouldn't need to test them for months
ZXDunny
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I don't really need English lessons, but thanks for the offer - though you could likely do well to make use of the spell-checker
I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one "interpretating" - you seem to be in a minority of one here as far as your opinion goes... which seems to be quite odious in that you're maliciously and viciously trying to subvert a group's efforts in bringing a new device to market.
I'm not sure, other than the comment about the Pyra being ugly, which of the Pandora's faults you consider to be cosmetic in nature? Maybe the paint? If so, you're reaching now and looking pretty daft to boot. The reaction to your comments from the rest of the forum shows that yours is an unpopular stance.
I suspect they won't need it, having several systems under their belts now they can likely pick and choose hardware that ED, a relative unknown, cannot.
And to ED:
You don't have to tell me what you've fixed - I've been here for years now, and have followed your adventures from back in the GP days - and you know I love my Pandora; the Pyra will be just as loved when I get it. I just find it hilarious that a muppet like Kiga here would be such an extremist that he honestly thinks this is some sort of race, or that anyone is going to ear your lunch
D.
Eh? What does that have to do with it?
Sure, we need to use the SSD because the OMAP5 can't rotate it, but that doesn't mean they won't use it, so that's special in our case.
But as mentioned: The SSD is not being produced for us, it's a standard companies, being used by even bigger companies than GPD as well.
It's main purpose is power saving, color correction, etc.
So it adds features to MIPI video outputs that some SoCs don't have.
It's completely normal to choose such an SoC and add other features with other ICs. That doesn't have anything to do with a company being small or big. It's being done when it makes sense or when you want to add that feature.
It's an add-on like a 4G modem (whereas you could also choose an SoC which has a modem built in).
So who knows. GPD might have this or some other special chips being included in the system. Chips you don't know about, as they don't tell you.
And why should they? They sell you a finished and working Windows 10 system. Everything else is of no interest for them.
But these chips might cause issues with any Linux ports for the system.
It's only hypothetically, we have no idea what will be included, but it's a danger.
Oh, and besides:
Nikolaus worked for a HUGE company before (WAY bigger than GPD, think of something like Samsung or similar) and was involved with various new developments and products.
Not ONCE weren't there any issues with prototypes that needed to be fixed, even though they were experienced with thousands of electronic products before.
That's totally normal, that's why prototypes are being made. Sure, fixing is faster if you got more manpower and expensive testing devices, but it still happens and needs to be done.
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levi
Still fresh, damnit!
If anything, prototyping with a lot of people can take even longer than doing it with a small team I suspect. With dozens or even hundreds of testers, each reporting a couple of issues, it can be hard to sort the important ones from the inconsequential ones.
Also they tend to start out with crazy projected designs, and equally far off, but in the opposite direction, prototype boards. Getting the thing to some sort of median compromise between the two can take a long time and a number of revisions.
Also they tend to start out with crazy projected designs, and equally far off, but in the opposite direction, prototype boards. Getting the thing to some sort of median compromise between the two can take a long time and a number of revisions.
I think this is the first time, together with the fact that the blueprints will be open, that a development of a computer is this open.
You (as in a team) ARE making history... I like the way it is going. When I read how much blood sweat and tears the development of the OP costed... I appreciated it much more.
Let's see here, your model is:
* Documenting every step of the production. Makes me, as a future consumer, feel I am part of the development.
* community driven user input. I feel appreciated. And you attract people that have interesting things to throw on the table
* croudfunding. Things cost money... we throw money at it.
* Self documenting hacks and ports (user contributed)
* Do more with less (OP aint the fastest on the block... but still kicks some xxx)
* While everybody goes thin... you go fat.
* Ara-like modular daughterboard
* Mythology embedded hardware.
Daughters of Pyrrha were: Protogeneia, Pandora II and Thyia What name will the first daugherboard have? (Pandora II looks very obvious, and is my favourite. And for the upgrade from Cortex-A15 to the a little faster, but much less consuming Cortex-A53/A57? Thyia maybe.... and with 1Gb more Ram, and the same chip as the rPi3... it will be faster...)
Note: Graecus was the son of Pandora II, and that's where the Greeks get their name from.
See the pattern here?
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SNESFAN
Retro game fanatic
Lol what?
I have no stake in this conversation, but this is ridiculous. The pyra is so obviously the evolution of the Pandora. I wouldn't say knock off either. But to treat it as its own separate idea of a "Pandora esque" type of device is completely misleading. It might as well just say Pandora 2 on the damn box...
It has the exact same design concepts in the exact same locations. Ideas were directly improved upon according to feedback from the device its replacing. Yes there are improvements on areas that didn't directly need them, and they're welcomed. And some forced movement of things like a innovative movement of speaker location :rolls eyes:
It's much deeper than even to call it a spiritual successor either as I've seen suggested as well. An example of a real spiritual successor would be the GCW zero to the dingoo. The pyra/Pandora is more akin to a vita is to a psp. Might as well have been called the psp2.
Mr_Loon
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+1 to this and long may it continue.
This should be part of the official spec for marketing purposes
____________________________________________________________
I'm starting to seriously doubt that GPD Win will ship in October, it seems like they've not even finalised the design yet : From the GDP Win Indiegogo page : 'In view of the fact that many people opposed to change USB Type-A to USB Type-C, So we decided to still use the USB Type-A interface.I have deleted the yesterday's update. I am so sorry for the repeated change!!'
I guess being a bigger supplier with an existing supply chain based in China they will have some speed advantages compared to Pyra production but October seems a little optimistic to me.
Guess I didn't explain that very well, as from your post we agree 100%. What I was trying to do was explain to Kiga why the GPD Win is not a knockoff Pyra by explaining why a Pyra was not a knockoff Pandora. Not to say that Pyra & Pandora are not clearly linked.
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PowerGod
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If the developer really trust what he is obtaining he will not have to fear to be open about the creation process.
There will be critics, some can be constructive, some less, but still he will find an interested audience that can choose if the device is worth their attention.
One thing that the Pandora got as the "only" device like this around, was to attract people that weren't even aware what Linux or ARM were, and those people were obliged to understand how these new environments were working... the result was mainly positive, because after some learning curve, many of those were able to actually "do things" that they never did on a Windows PC, and many used the Pandora as a kickstarter for actually start using even their PC in a different way.
Anyway this was not only thanks to the Pandora itself, but because of the entire community !!
At the beginning even the simple emulators were working bad, there were many not so user-friendly things to do, and a lot of people were complaining... I was one of the people who were waiting in the shadow, looking interested but I was not sure how the project would have become, but still I was seeing progresses here and there, every day, every month, and after years seems like the impossible was even surpassed !!
All this made that little "old" device stand the test of time even with it's outdated hardware !!
Now, the GPD Win, will be surely able to run a LOT of things AS IS, and many people will be just happy with this, but it will lack the optimizations that only the love of a community can give. Because on a closed environment even a lot of hacking can't beat the tricks that can be used on an open one...
So, this is what will happen, the GPD Win maybe will be able to attracts many people at the beginning, but at some point it will naturally become SLOWER than the Pyra, even excluding the hardware upgradability of the latter, and after some years, even if both will be defined "old", the Pyra will still continue to shine.
Only another open portable device with a strong community behind it can be a decent "opponent" for the Pyra, and still there are none around like this.
There will be critics, some can be constructive, some less, but still he will find an interested audience that can choose if the device is worth their attention.
One thing that the Pandora got as the "only" device like this around, was to attract people that weren't even aware what Linux or ARM were, and those people were obliged to understand how these new environments were working... the result was mainly positive, because after some learning curve, many of those were able to actually "do things" that they never did on a Windows PC, and many used the Pandora as a kickstarter for actually start using even their PC in a different way.
Anyway this was not only thanks to the Pandora itself, but because of the entire community !!
At the beginning even the simple emulators were working bad, there were many not so user-friendly things to do, and a lot of people were complaining... I was one of the people who were waiting in the shadow, looking interested but I was not sure how the project would have become, but still I was seeing progresses here and there, every day, every month, and after years seems like the impossible was even surpassed !!
All this made that little "old" device stand the test of time even with it's outdated hardware !!
Now, the GPD Win, will be surely able to run a LOT of things AS IS, and many people will be just happy with this, but it will lack the optimizations that only the love of a community can give. Because on a closed environment even a lot of hacking can't beat the tricks that can be used on an open one...
So, this is what will happen, the GPD Win maybe will be able to attracts many people at the beginning, but at some point it will naturally become SLOWER than the Pyra, even excluding the hardware upgradability of the latter, and after some years, even if both will be defined "old", the Pyra will still continue to shine.
Only another open portable device with a strong community behind it can be a decent "opponent" for the Pyra, and still there are none around like this.
And you're right on that because my use of the word knockoff was incorrect. But you're wrong too because Pyra is the child of Pandora, whatever you say about who designed and blablabla. Everyone know that Iphone 2 can't be a knockoff of Iphone but that doesn't mean ChingChongXT isn't an Iphone knockoff.
I said you are interpretating because you said that my use of the relative concept "originality" is incorrect, assuming that the relatedness is the same as yours. As for your personal attacks, I'm literally laughing at your madness, and then I read what I wrote which made you mad and I laugh even more.I don't really need English lessons, but thanks for the offer - though you could likely do well to make use of the spell-checker
I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one "interpretating" - you seem to be in a minority of one here as far as your opinion goes... which seems to be quite odious in that you're maliciously and viciously trying to subvert a group's efforts in bringing a new device to market.
Where did I talk about Pandora? Once again you're interpretating.
I couldn't care less about how much my stance is popular. If you care so much about popularity why are you on the Pyra forum? You fit more in a Windows fanclub.
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erico
Advanced Member
This sentence alone is more than enough to end the argument imho.
I don´t understand why some people take this gpd win as a threat, the arguments I read are all too ´fantastic´ to be taken seriously.
They may look similar on the outside and idea but will be totally different stuff for different people when they get real, this will be fact, you can already see it.
SNESFAN
Retro game fanatic
I said something about this a couple months ago and basically got accused of blasphemy
Exophase
Nothing good will ever come of Exophase.
Most of the people here aren't as extreme and volatile as this though :/
