Gp2x Getting Upgrades.

[iignotus]

Why would it be "dreadful" for emulation? I'm just not quite sure; if you could tell me it would help.

Try playing emulators on an Xbox with the analogue stick, you'll see what I mean.

Well I don't have an Xbox, and quite frankly I'd rather hear you tell me the reason why it's dreadful. If you have a reason to say that, please tell me, since I can't make heads or tails of a reason.

Xbox emulation is difficult due to the analog nature of the controllers. The DPAD doesn't even do so well. I was playing SMB3 and was having a severe amount of difficulty pulling off unusually simple things.

BLAAAAAAAAARGH! That's not a reason! Sorry, no offense! !!!

 

[TelcoLou]

Are you trying to make some bold statement, iignotus? You seem bent on arguing here ... about something ... and going off-topic.

 

[iignotus]

Are you trying to make some bold statement, iignotus? You seem bent on arguing here ... about something ... and going off-topic.

Don't be daft. I'm not bent, it's just that I see that "fact", that analogue sticks suck more than digital ones for emu et. al., all over the board, and enough is enough already! There is nothing I know that you don't about this particular situation; I'm not trying to make anyone look stupid. I really just want to know why it's such an accepted notion, as there's no scientific reason why someone should come to that conclusion under ideal situations.

And don't use "argue" when refering to a discussion. It's tantamount to saying "I'm really mad." AND FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, DON'T CLOSE THIS THREAD!!! AHH!! NO! I really just want an answer... is that so much to ask?

 

[Justron]

Sorry I tried.

 

[iignotus]

Look here you.

That seems a little harsh...

1) Analogue controllers are designed to deliver degrees of control. Let's say anything on a scale of 1 to 100 is possible by gradually tilting a stick, the smallest possible tilt is 1, the greatest tilt is 100. If this is extrapolated to 100 unique possible directions to push an analogue stick, this leaves the user with 10 000 unique input possibilities with one stick.

Digital controllers are designed with only ON/OFF switches for all directions and buttons, indeed, the directions ARE buttons covered up by a little cross shaped piece of plastic. They allow 4 possible variables, or if you want to get creative and combine UP+LEFT, etc, you get 8 directions

10 000 vs. 8 is a pretty big difference.

I already knew that. It still doesn't have anything to do with why a digital stick is better than an analogue stick. To me, the more numbers, the better! And numbers are certainly no problem for computers that may have said controller attatched to them.

2) Analogue controllers were introduced to the main stream with the N64 and PSX Dual Shock, or what have you. Not clear on the details, but for our study, the analogue controller appeared in 1996.

Digital D-pads first appeared in 1981.

Up until 1996 ALL game input (for the purpose of this example) was of a digital nature.

Another fine point, if I wanted to know about the history of video game input. All I want to know is the reason for the view of analogue < digital.

3) The throw distance of the stick also comes into play, because before where the control was a matter of pressing a button a few millimeters, the user now has to swing their thumb through a distance of up to a centimeter (or more) to achieve the same input.

A tiny press is different than a huge swing of the thumb.

This is a comparison of analogue/digital sticks to D-pads. I already said D-pads are much better. My question is, and has always been, about Analogue Sticks vs. Digital Sticks.

4) When choosing to port a previously digital-only game to an analogue control device, it's left to the programmer/designer at what point in the scale from 1 to 100 constitutes one of the 8 possible directions.

Is it really? It seems quite obvious that he would only use the cardinal directions and their in-betweens, and would divide each zone equally.

If they choose poorly, it can be nearly impossible to control the game fluidly. If the stick is too sensitive to movement (requiring only a slight nudge to move the character), the player flies all over the place as the user's thumb twitches. If it's not sensitive enough (requiring a pull on press) the character is nearly impossible to move, and response time is awful.

There's the first possible point I've seen. However, these kind of things plague both analogue sticks and digital sticks, and I would say that digital sticks are more susceptible to these things, as their throw distance is pre-determined. On an analogue stick, it could theoretically be changed in software if it was too sensitive or not sensitive enough. All these things make the argument that Analogue > Digital, when I constantly see the opposite.

Diagonals are typically awful in these cases as well, because if the area of diagonal press is too small or too large, the control suffers again.

Reference my reply above the one above this one.

5) Analogue sticks and D-pads are different tactile surfaces.

With a D-pad, the user can feel with their thumb which direction is up, down, etc. With an analogue stick (especially the PS2s) it's almost impossible to press true up or true down without any feedback. By feedback, I mean visual stimulus that tell the user "You're running in a straight line" or "You need to correct your course."

D-pads are implicit directions, Analogue is completely ambiguous.

This is still comparing an analogue/digital stick and a D-pad, which, as I've stated plenty of times, was not my original, nor current, comparison.

6) I found all of the information myself. You're sitting right in front of the largest information repository in the history of the world, and you have the audacity to ask questions, nay, demand answers, from people with better things to do? Learn to do your own research.

Well you don't have to be a jerk about it, especially when none of your information was a.) helpful, or b.) all-together on-topic. I mean, really, this last statement is completely uncalled for and quite offensive. You should feel ashamed of yourself.

I'm also aware of wikipedia, as I use and contribute to it with much frequency.

I appreciate your attempt to help me, but you didn't succeed. I really just want an answer as to why people say analogue sticks are much worse than digital sticks. I was completely unaware that I was being rude or audacious in the least. I also don't believe I "demanded" anything.

And a postscript to mods -- I hope you note the calmness I've kept in this reply. I'm being very sincere when I say I'd like an answer. I don't know everything, surely, and I'd like to find the reason why many people say things like "Analogue sticks are terrible for emulation". Is that too much to ask? Thanks

 

[nubie]

I really just want an answer as to why people say analogue sticks are much worse than digital sticks.

I don't have a definitive answer, I think perhaps a poll, I vote Digital Stick for emulation.

I must say I can't stand an analog thumb stick, I've never met one I feel completely comfortable with.

It would be a different matter if we were talking about a stick constrained to one axis, but that's really just a slider anyway.

I would guess most would like to have a "click" or feedback rather than the weird "floaty" feeling controlling a digital programmed game with an analog (or analogue) controller gives you.

The fact of "dead-zone" and throw are not to be minimized in the least, I believe the only way to get good modulation of digital input games on an analog stick is probably by using a stick that acts digital and simply has a pressure sensor to detect the amount of input the user wants.

I just find it tough to play digital games on an analog stick, it is not designed for the quick response and positive engagement, it is designed for fine control, something these games were definitely NOT programmed for (think Atari joystick).

That said, if the game being emulated (such as an arcade game) used a digital stick originally, keep it digital when emulating it.

Exceptions being a stick with suitably short throw, positive directional engagement along the ordinal axis' and pressure sensing to detect the analog inputs desired when necessary

 

[Tobriand]

There's benefits to both, really. Your best bet to find out why, Iignotus, is simply to go and buy an analogue gamepad and set it up on zSNES or something, before trying to play, say, Mario. Or some other game designed with a digital stick in mind.

It might work ok, it might not, but you'll get a feeling as to why people don't like analogue sticks for such games. You'll also have spent some money, but hey, if you're sure analogue sticks are so good for emulation, why not buy one for your home PC? They're only $8/£5 or so, iirc

 

[yaustar]

With a Analogue Stick, in software you have to define where RIGHT becomes UP-RIGHT or DOWN-RIGHT and can differ between different software. UP-RIGHT in one game can become RIGHT in another. With digital it is a definite input from the hardware from 8 possible states compared to 10,000.

 

[rokdcasbah]

there's less feedback with an analog stick. with digital there's usually a large spring under the d-pad. so the d-pad always wants to return to center. this is a small help in most games but a large help in games where button combos need to be done accurately. with an analog stick, you have to do both movements yourself (out & return) if you want any accuracy because the stick takes too long to come back to center.

i'm no mr. wizard, but is that objective enough?

 

[craigix]

I dunno exactly how to explain it either, it is sort of like a D pad is exact and an alalogue stick is messy and sloppy. Like playing pool with a bit of rope.

 

[TelcoLou]

I dunno exactly how to explain it either, it is sort of like a D pad is exact and an alalogue stick is messy and sloppy. Like playing pool with a bit of rope.

:lol::lol::lol: Best. Explanation. EVER!

... closing thread.





























Psyche!

 

[nickspoon]

Hang on... you're NOT meant to use a rope?

 

[Vimacs]

I allways thought you are supposed to use your penis

 

[nubie]

huh, thread didn't close?

Should be after that penis remark.

I like the pool/rope analogy.

I think the only answer in this case is to try them both yourself, a "learning experience" if you will.

It will probably teach you more about your own preferences than anything to do with the physical controllers though : ) .


Edit: Psyche! (I get it now, he was joking.)

 

[iignotus]

Well, the best answer I've gotten here was from yaustar and rokdcasbah (though craig's was very clear as well ). While yaustar's point (about directions being different between programs) shouldn't matter, I guess in the real world, it does, especially when in one game there's only four directions to go, and in another, there's eight or sixteen or something. And rokdcasbah's point about the analogue stick not wanting to return to center as much as a digital sounds like a problem, and one I think I've experienced myself a few times.

I still can't see the harm in using analogue for emulation. Other than on my Gamecube (that's analogue, right?), which went fine for playing sonic, I'm going to have to buy a nice, fat, arcade-esque analog for my computer

See, was that so hard? Cheers mates

 

[DaveC]

My reason why they suck for emulation is mainly experience. Every analog I have tried to use for emulation has been miserable.

As for scientific there a few reasons I can think of.

For one thing if you adjust an analog to reduce dead zone then you have no physical stop for when you have reached the contact point. This means that if the point where the analog registers an input is programmed midway through its stroke you can't tell how far passed the contact point that you traveled. So if you go "up" for example you may have overtraveled the programmed contact point by quite a lot, or maybe not, it will always vary. This means that when you don't want to go up anymore you need to bring the stick down past this contact point. Since this point is not a hard stop the distance you will move to contact/not contact will vary depending on how far up you went. You will never be able to move the stick exactly the same way every time. This means you are constantly searching for this "go/no-go" contact point while playing and it is very hard to pinpoint it without a physical stop. This gives a very "sloppy" and imprecise feel.

The other solution is to program the analog to only make a contact when you hit the physical limit of the stick. This solves one problem but creates another. In this case though the dead zone will be HUGE as analogs by nature have a very large stroke, again making for sloppy controls.

With a digital stick the contact point never varies, you always just push until it stops (or clicks in some cases) and then it contacts the same way every time. Since this point never changes it is much more intuitive.

 

[Shikaku]

I still can't see the harm in using analogue for emulation. Other than on my Gamecube (that's analogue, right?), which went fine for playing sonic, I'm going to have to buy a nice, fat, arcade-esque analog for my computer

Here's what happens with analogue sticks when you use it instead of a D-pad:

Let's say I'm playing a verticle shooter.

I attempt to press right. Wait, hold on, it was more like up right, because it went halfway between up right and right. So I go up right. I press down to compensate: that works. I now attempt to go down-left by sliding it a little to the left. Nothing happens because I didn't press left enough, and have to keep on moving the stick toward down-left until it works. I now attempt to go up, and instead go up-left because it leaned toward the left...

Get it now!?

I couldn't play a fighting game like this!!! Not even Smash brothers on the GC/N64!

 

[iatneH]

Even for non-emulated games that require digital control, analogue doesn't work.

Here's an example. Try playing Ikaruga on the GameCube, using the analogue stick. Pure ass. And not the desirable kind of ass either. Now try playing it with the D-pad. Still pretty bad since the GameCube D-pad sucks.
Next use a controller convertor and a controller with a better D-pad. A bit better, right?
Now use the controller convertor and plug in your homemade Blast City panel with a sweet Seimitsu balltop joystick. MAX CHAIN S++ is so much easier since the ship goes exactly where you want it, WHEN you want it. With analogue control, you really have to guess at how far and how quickly you push until movement is activated, and there is basically no tactile feedback until you have pushed the stick to the restrictor limits, which is quite a large throw on analogue sticks. This takes too many precious milliseconds that wouldn't need to be given up with a short-throw digital stick.

But I guess I've been spoiled for precision controls... it probably doesn't matter if you just want to play Chrono Trigger or whatever. But for any action-oriented game, precision is highly important, because without precision, you die... and when you die, it costs another 50 cents

 

[BlackDayz]

Okay, since my last "reason" was not a "reason". When you get running in nearly every Mario Bros. game, you don't stop on a dime, rather, you skid. So to stop running, you have to go in the opposite direction to get that crazy little plumber to stop hauling ass. This is easy on a DPAD, because Right is Right, and Left is Left. There's no arguing that. When it's an analog stick (or even DPAD) you have different levels of right and left. So while you want that zany ass plumber not to go screaming off into the goomba, or one of the infinite number of insert death here pits in all of their games, you get a mushy control that doesn't actually get the idea that you want to friggin' stop.

 

[yaustar]

Well, the best answer I've gotten here was from yaustar and rokdcasbah (though craig's was very clear as well ). While yaustar's point (about directions being different between programs) shouldn't matter, I guess in the real world, it does, especially when in one game there's only four directions to go, and in another, there's eight or sixteen or something. And rokdcasbah's point about the analogue stick not wanting to return to center as much as a digital sounds like a problem, and one I think I've experienced myself a few times.

I still can't see the harm in using analogue for emulation. Other than on my Gamecube (that's analogue, right?), which went fine for playing sonic, I'm going to have to buy a nice, fat, arcade-esque analog for my computer

See, was that so hard? Cheers mates

Sorry, I meant when RIGHT becomes UP-RIGHT, I meant the phyiscal orientation of the stick
eg:

Game A:
UP is defined as any where between 11 and 1 o clock
UP RIGHT is between 1 and 2

Game B
UP is defined as between 10:30 and 1:30
UP-RIGHT as 1:30 and 2:30

The response differs from Game A and Game B if the Stick is at 1 o clock