Getting closer... (2011 - 12 - 01)

[Binky]

I thought CC was based in the US <_<

 

[lebob23]

I don't see how this can compete with those on the market. So atleast the hardware isn't awesome in fact its outdated almost 2 generations.

It doesn't have to compete directly. The Pandora isn't out to sell millions. If they can sell 10'000 (and they're already well on their way to doing so) they've succeeded. They don't want to displace Sony or Nintendo or Amazon, or HP or anyone, they just want to make a product that works.


The Pandora is filling a very specific niche: an open device with the exact set of features that a subset of the population desperately wants that isn't being supplied by any of the other devices that currently exist.


Once they've sold their 10'000+ they'll have the capital to release a superior version that I'm sure will tickle your senses as far as CPU, RAM and screen size are concerned, but since those are the things that are important to you then you are not in the 10'000 people that OpenPandora Team are trying to sell to. Since you aren't in that niche, it would be extremely difficult to explain why it is worth so much to those of us that are in the niche. I look at people that spend tens of thousands on their fancy sports car and have no idea why but I recognize that there is a reason they do. We're the same way: you may not understand why, but just know that for us it is worth it to support the project.


And in a year or two, when production has finally been smoothed out and it is time for an upgrade I will be right there waiting on the same set of features that no other device supplies.


Incidentally, capacitive screens are extremely overrated. Thanks to multi-touch resistive, there is absolutely no benefit to using capacitive and a great many draw backs to it. Any phone built in 2012 that has a capacitive screen will actually be worse off than one that uses a resistive screen.

I understand that but wouldn't it be easier to just mod a tablet and set up bluetooth for a keyboard and mouse?


It seems to me that the 7 inch tablets would be great for this.

The response to lebob23

Spoiler

Forgive me if this sounds stupid

Nope.

but I don't think you are going to be able to sell for more than $80.

Too late, and they had been selling.

Your direct competitors are the off brand tablets.

Really? Are you aware that we have physical game controls such as nubs and buttons? A slate of plastic designed for the most technologically inadequate does not compare to a device like the pandora

This is from just looking at the specs, I have however been on this site several times over the past few years and it seems like if you would have sped up the process by about 2 years you could have sold it for around $350.

You need to lurk more. It sounds like you think that device has yet been on the market, when in fact it already had, twice or three times. They were selling then, and they will sell again.

I'm sorry your investment failed but its extremely hard to compete with corporations these days no matter what kind of business you are running.

Wow. You give pity to a group of people who are not in it for the money at all. There is NO competition, and there was no intention of one. If there was a homebrew device that could fulfill a good portion of what the Pandora can do now, the Pandora may have not been bothered with.

Your device is now equivalent to a low end smartphone but with all the opensource compatibility it should do many interesting things.

Hardware isn't everything, The pandora is fairly balanced with its specs to its battery life. Although, being opensource, you could do anything, in theory.

My guess is that some of you founders where hired by your competitors and have in a way succeeded. Good luck I hope nobody lost anything significant over this.

Complete libel.

Spoiler

Quote


The QNX operating system has not been hacked (maybe rooted) and the playbook is a generation above the pandora in every category.


How much do you really know what you're talking about?


Anyway... I vote for


Flotilla

So, the device has already been on the market and it still cost upwards of $400?


some tablets get 12 hours of battery life with just newer editions of the same hardware

You can't evaluate a device by just reading specs.


Just grab a Pandora, and "the most powerful" device you can find. It's a no match, the OP wins easily. It's a true open Linux plus a complete rock-solid hardware.


The Zaurus did the same and was years ahead for a long time.

thats interesting. Refer to my above comment

Forgive me if this sounds stupid but I don't think you are going to be able to sell for more than $80. Your direct competitors are the off brand tablets. This is from just looking at the specs, I have however been on this site several times over the past few years and it seems like if you would have sped up the process by about 2 years you could have sold it for around $350. I'm sorry your investment failed but its extremely hard to compete with corporations these days no matter what kind of business you are running.


Your device is now equivalent to a low end smartphone but with all the opensource compatibility it should do many interesting things.


My guess is that some of you founders where hired by your competitors and have in a way succeeded. Good luck I hope nobody lost anything significant over this.

There's actually no competitor that beats the Pandora.


The hardware is awesome, the price is fair.


And the device is truly open so no Carrier IQ on it :lol: .

let me explain the minimum industry standards are: (for a product that costs around $200)


1024x600 screen


omap 4430


1GB ram


Wireless N


Dual core 1Ghz


capacitive screen


You can see this specs in many budget level devices that have been released in the past 6 months the Kindle fire, playbook, nook etc.


I don't see how this can compete with those on the market. So atleast the hardware isn't awesome in fact its outdated almost 2 generations.


Maybe i'm missing something can you please explain the functionality of tthis device and how it is better than the failed blackberry playbook which was avaliable widely for under $200 the past two weeks. The QNX operating system has not been hacked (maybe rooted) and the playbook is a generation above the pandora in every category.

Um. You're aware that everything you've stated relates to tablets? Or even on a handheld scale, devices with no gaming controls and keyboard? It's the form factor and small size that makes the Pandora special.


D.

Bluetooth keyboard and controller.


Everything inside the pandora is from old tablets.

Guys, he doesn't get it and he probably never will. Explain all you want and it'll just go over his head. There's nothing wrong with that, different people have different priorities. Just pat him on the head, tell him he's a good boy for caring but we're adults who know what we're doing, and let's all carry on our way.

Just give me one example. sorceress.

lebob23:


I would say that by the standards that the Pandora addresses none of the currently available ARM processors represents a generational gap. This device is a pocket computer around the same size as a Nintendo DS, that can handle emulation of console and computer systems.


An upgrade at this point would primarily effect the desktop experience and use of native applications, which is already pretty solid from everything I've heard. Given the usual pace of things IdTech 4 should have actually been pored over and properly setup for Linux around the same time OPL should be ready to put out new hardware. At most you can argue for DOSBox going from i386 to i486 territory, but that would involve getting the highest end ARM hardware available, and you'd still probably be left wanting more processing power.


Really though you're not going to see a lot of movement in what the Pandora can do if you moved to currently available hardware. People doing testing with OMAP 4430 equipped Pandaboards have basically verified this, from what I heard of their emulator runs.


A full generation on the Pandora would require getting access to something along the lines of the projected 3GHz ARM v8 cores they're slating for server use. As always with these little diatribes about upgrading, I'm not opposing the notion of upgrading things I'm simply pointing out that it's not going to make that significant of a difference in what it can do.

I guess you are right for something of this scale it would be hard to make it affordable.

And at this point it's not so much the hardware that's lacking, but the software.


Even with the specs the Pandora has it's probably only using half of it's potential.


No matter how many ghz, core, ram, etc. you cram into a device. If nobody makes any software that makes full use of it, it's just a waste of silicon.

You can make software for already built and cheaper devices with better hardware

Maybe i'm missing something can you please explain the functionality of tthis device and how it is better than the failed blackberry playbook which was avaliable widely for under $200 the past two weeks. The QNX operating system has not been hacked (maybe rooted) and the playbook is a generation above the pandora in every category.

Sales of the Blackberry Playbook were below expectations and the leftover inventory is being sold below cost. It's somewhat interesting hardware, but the actual cost is more than $200.


The Kindle and Nook are loss-leaders which are being sold below cost.

Yeah that's why I bought one for 189 total. Wouldn't it be more efficient just to mod those instead of building your own device?

@lebob23:


You compare the Pandora, designed in 2007 and not changed since, to the newest devices. Sure, in 2011 the Pandora might look slower than other devices available around, but when/if a Pandora 2 gets designed, it will probably use the best parts around and could then "compete" (though that isn't true) with other devices. And some time after its release, the Pandora 2 will/would seem inferior to other devices released by then.


And also, don't compare a 20 cm x 15 cm tablet with a 14 cm x 8,3 cm Pandora for the specs, the Pandora has way less space (almost half) for chips and all.


It is also notable that the processor can be overclocked, unlike most other devices available. The screen, may it be resistive instead of capacitive (though both have qualities and flaws), has a way better resolution for its size than several tablets. For example, the iPad has 1024 x 768 over a 25cm diagonal, which gives about 51,2 pixels per centimeter (130 ppi), while the Pandora has 85.4 pixels per centimeter (217 ppi), which is about 5/3 the pixel density. So the screen isn't inferior to other devices.


It was also already said the Pandora has a 43-button keyboard and gaming controls (D-pad, two analog nubs, 4 ABXY buttons, Start & Select and 2 shoulder buttons), which very very few devices around have.


I think the Pandora has a reasonable price, especially since they have to increase it to pay for all the problems the companies they dealt with caused them, notably CircuitCo.

I didn't realize it was released that early, Other devices can be overclocked the infamous HP touchpad hit 1.7GHZ.

I don't think we will gain too much with a dual core SoC gaming wise, of course desktop applications always crave more power, but at the moment, only N64 emulation craves more power and higher gen systems are out of reach for handhelds right now. Of course game developers can take advantage of the extra speed but right now, purely from a gaming standpoint it does not really matter.


The Pandora is something different and unique, it covers a different market and satisfies different needs.


If you need a cell phone and someone hands you a tablet and says, this one has a bigger screen and is faster, would you take it? Heck no, you need a bloody cellphone!

Why not just get a PSP?


Both?

Someone should write an article on how overrated "specs" are.

YES

OP, you're here from where you were supposed to be a year ago, and even two years ago. Glad for you guys that it's going more smoothly now.


I see the next Pandora sporting faster flash memory and DDR RAM, if only because the newer boards now sport said features... but probably not for another year or two, we've only just begun! I'm waiting in anticipation now, I've been wanting to make music for 3 years on the thing :lol: and draw, I can't use my DS+homebrew anymore since I lost my charger <_< Pandora was intended as a portable production studio, as it were (given the connectivity possibilities of it), was intending on using it as a DAW, but I couldn't resist getting an iMac in the wait (and now selling said iMac a year later so I can pay bills). Niche or not, I can find many uses for it. I don't need a full blown workstation to do my work, just something like the Pandora... it's multi-use, and like a mini-"super"computer in the palm of the hands... if it were in my hands that is :lol:

LOL i have heard that story before (buy expensive apple product then sell to pay bills)

I thought CC was based in the US <_<

Your sig explains a great deal.


Well anyway I did some lurking and now I can see that this more of a portable linux pc. The niche for this probably very small and if I would have taken a different path in life i'm sure that I would have already bought one, but two years ago I decided to join the mainstream and I now I only play DX9 and above games. I currently started Saints row 3 (the pandora 7 will run it). I guess running N64 games on this and multitasking make it a worthwhile device and $400 is not too much to ask for it. I just hope you guys compensate the original developers for your games...


Im going to leave now since this is of no use to me, but very interesting stuff here.

 

[milkshake]

i disagree about capacitive touchscreens I think they are superior to restistive and can handle more than 2 independant touches at one time unlike resistive and even then its not perfect.

 

[Darkknight512]

i disagree about capacitive touchscreens I think they are superior to restistive and can handle more than 2 independant touches at one time unlike resistive and even then its not perfect.

I believe they have developed multi-touch resistive, so best of both worlds there.

 

[Darkknight512]

Why not just get a PSP?


Both?

It's not the same, and your also forced to hack the device. Many times I just pull out my Pandora to do some stuff that I would normally do on a laptop. The Pandora has removed the need for me to carry a laptop around everyday.


If the Pandora is not for you, then that's not a problem, as long as there is enough people interested in it then the project can succeed. You don't have to be included in the project if you don't want to, it's a niche market.

 

[Loonie]

A 7" tablet with a bluetooth keyboard and controller.


Yup, that sounds reeeeeal convenient.


There is no competing device. If there were, I would have it.

 

[lebob23]

A 7" tablet with a bluetooth keyboard and controller.


Yup, that sounds reeeeeal convenient.


There is no competing device. If there were, I would have it.

Exactly how small are you?

Why not just get a PSP?


Both?

It's not the same, and your also forced to hack the device. Many times I just pull out my Pandora to do some stuff that I would normally do on a laptop. The Pandora has removed the need for me to carry a laptop around everyday.


If the Pandora is not for you, then that's not a problem, as long as there is enough people interested in it then the project can succeed. You don't have to be included in the project if you don't want to, it's a niche market.

I understand that, but you can just buy a few in case you brick it.


I am not in the niche market because although I think its cool and I want one (not need) I can't afford it..

 

[Binky]

The Pandora has some unique features:

Pocket size

And has decent keyboard

And has gaming controls

And handles desktop work out of the box (including arrow keys, scrolling, cursor control, mouse buttons)

And minimal shoving accessories in your pocket than other devices.




It does what it was designed to do well, but if that's not what you want, then don't buy it.


If you own a sports car, do you write letters explaining why estate cars are useless?

<_<

 

[Linux-SWAT]

As WizardStan said, it's useless to argue. This guy lives in the dual-core capacitive tablets world :rolleyes: .

 

[milkshake]

I believe they have developed multi-touch resistive, so best of both worlds there.

I dont think that tech is commercially available right now so for good muti-touch I would stick with capacitive until true multi-touch resistive tech is avaialable commercially.

 

[lebob23]

As WizardStan said, it's useless to argue. This guy lives in the dual-core capacitive tablets world :rolleyes: .

The Pandora has some unique features:

Pocket size

And has decent keyboard

And has gaming controls

And handles desktop work out of the box (including arrow keys, scrolling, cursor control, mouse buttons)

And minimal shoving accessories in your pocket than other devices.




It does what it was designed to do well, but if that's not what you want, then don't buy it.


If you own a sports car, do you write letters explaining why estate cars are useless?

<_<

I guess your both right if the tablet doesn't meet my portable gaming needs im sure this will

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834215067http://www.newegg.co...N82E16834215067

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834215067 but I would probably wait 3 months for the next generation

 

[Link]

^


That looks like a nice little notebook, but it won't fit in my pocket, nor will any bluetooth joystick/keyboard combo.


The Pandora is about control, plain and simple. Controlling the software, and controlling the hardware.

 

[WizardStan]

The Pandora literally fits in my pocket. I've got a 3DS in one pocket and my Pandora in the other and no problems with either. The only reason I still carry my 3DS is because I'm a sap for points that don't matter (pedometer). That notebook will not fit in a pocket, nor does it have game controls. Once again, what you think is important is not what we think is important. I'm not even sure who you're trying to convince anymore.

 

[theshining]

Cheers Wizardstan, or should that be "sorceress", I've just told my wife that I'm a "subset" of the population, #68, she said she already knew that.


Sitting here reading away on my eee701 wishing I had a bucket of popcorn and that lebob23 would come back, great fun!

 

[EvilDragon]

lebob23:


I know it's pretty hard to understand for someone that is NOT interested in the Pandora - but the Pandora has some uniqueness which is way more important to some than all the devices you mentioned.


Some of the options don't you mentioned are not even valid replacements.


A 7" tablet with a BT Keyboard and controller? How the heck am I going to put this into my trousers?


I've got my Pandora in my pocket, and it features all I need.


There are some reasons the Pandora appeals to this niche market:


* It runs Linux. No Android, no iOS, no Windows Mobile. While you might say "but Android has a lot more apps", etc., there ARE people who WANT to have Linux on their mobile device. There are netbooks, but these are bigger and have no gaming controls, so there no other options as well.


I'm currently having an issue: I'm looking at a tablet (at home), a small one for about 150 USD maximum. I want to use it as a mediaplayer. I'd love to have Rhythmbox and NFS to connect to my Linux server to listen to music.


I can't find a tablet with Linux anywhere out there...


* It has gaming controls as well as a keyboard in a very small form factor. Yes, you can play games with your PSP with gaming controls, but it misses a desktop and a keyboard. A tablet has an onscreen-keyboard but it misses gaming controls... and for some users (like myself), it's too big as well.


* The community factor: A very important part of the Pandora is the community. Not just discussing about it, but helping to increase the software, etc. It's part of the fun. No tablet has such a community, no other gaming console that needs to be hacked has such a community. When homebrew on the PSP started, I tried it - but stopped using it after a while, as the community was terrible. They were bashing homebrew games ("That's crap, forget about it!") and most of the time asked how to run illegal eboots on the device. This was annoying.


EVERY device that has NOT been created specifically for OpenSource and has to be hacked has that problem.


About the price:


Yes, it's possible to make it A LOT cheaper. If we produce 100,000 Pandoras in China, we could offer it for 200 EUR, pretty sure about that.


However, someone would have to pay upfront for these 100,000 Pandoras. You won't find someone for such a niche device, so it's not an option.


Also, I try to produce as much of the Pandora in countries with proper wages. It's a device that's been built for a community, for people who want to help out each other... I couldn't possibly produce it where other people are paid too low wages...


And as others said, specs are not really relevant.


My N900 (same CPU as the Pandora) stutters even when playing NES emulation... whereas my Pandora runs PSX fullspeed without issues.


It's all about optimization.


My Pentium 4 with 1 GHz has a faster desktop with Linux (LXDE) than my 3 GHz Pentium 4 with Windows Vista...


If modern devices would USE the power they have to offer, it would be more than enough for a few years.


Unfortunately, the solution nowadays is quantity then quality:


Why optimize an OS or an app when you can simply increase the CPU clock and everyone thinks it's way better and buys it?

 

[Batou456]

To expound on WizardStan and EvilDragon's point, imagine you're at the grocery store and you're wanting to handle tasks you may have previously used HandyShopper on a Palm Pilot for which is to say database tracking of where things are and their prices in order to more efficiently plan out your shopping trips. Now with the Pandora you can simply whip out your little pocket computer, pull up the data, and go about your business. With a 7" tablet you're going to need to wear a coat and be mindful of the screen, plus you're going to need to expend more effort on juggling what's in your hand at any particular moment, and operate a lot slower if you need to make any modifications. A convertible laptop/tablet in turn becomes more of a kludge in trying to carry it around, and do your business.


The same can go for things like when you pull up to the gas station, and want to log your miles, and fuel efficiency. Or if you want to modify a book, paper, or code while traveling by bus, plane, or train. Or any of a zillion other user profiles where it would be nice to simply be able to whip out a computing solution to handle an immediate problem.


That's not even getting into the aspect of being able to game with proper controls on a flexible and configureable system. Or the flexibility of being able to switch out cards. Or any number of other features the more sophisticated user can exploit.

i disagree about capacitive touchscreens I think they are superior to restistive and can handle more than 2 independant touches at one time unlike resistive and even then its not perfect.

Capacitive has an edge in that it gets gain off the body's bioelectric field, and it's algorithms for multitouch are already implimented. The problem of how to accomplish resistive multitouch has been solved for a while now, and even a community based around an old resistive screen Windows phone was able to reverse engineer a reasonable solution. The commercial vendors have set them up to handle at least 10 inputs, but aren't going to rock the boat with it right now. Part of which is due to the fact implimenting this trick is a software rather then hardware problem.

Resistive touch technology has the advantage of being more durable, and less expensive then the capacitive layer equivalent. Hence it can actually put up with a proper stylus, with the newer layers they're experimenting with the multitouch on being sensitive enough they can register brush strokes and recognize the level of applied pressure.


This makes capacitive layers only really well suited to a device focussed primarily around you fingering the screen, which doesn't describe the Pandora's workload profile. The idea's to be able to touch small things or make handwritten notes, and if you do need to use zoom/scroll/rotate functions there's plenty of control options with which to impliment it.

 

[milkshake]

I have read about the software hacks for mutitouch on resistive screens of old tech and it only supports 2 inputs at once and there are other issues with it too which i cannot remember right now.


new tech is needed for more than 2 inputs at once. and as far as im aware that tech isnt commercially available.


I havent used anything on the pandora that needs pressure sensitive input yet (i dont use paint programs anyway) and even if there was something you can handle this with capacitive screens by simple setting the pressure level in the app itself its kind of fake pressure, but its worked fine for years with photoshop

 

[FaeMinx]

I'm not even sure who you're trying to convince anymore.

Yes, but it's amusing watching him try. :lol:


Honestly, I had a look at the little Notebook he linked to and I find it utterly unappealing... I wouldn't have any use for it.


If i'm going to go for a (semi) portable device any larger than the Pandora... it's going to be a full blown desktop replacement laptop.


That, plus my Pandora, and my HTC Sensation is all I need or want.... oh and possibly the Playstation Vita... eventually, after they go through the next hardware revision and add onboard storage.


@lebob23: Yes, I have a device that by your arguments is vastly superior to the Pandora - the HTC Sensation, which is a dual-core android superphone running at 1.2Ghz which is actually an underclock... the chip is designed to run at 1.5Ghz... and in a lot of cases can be overclocked to 1.8Ghz


My Pandora is currently away on RMA and I'm missing it terribly... The Sensation, while impressive... is very *meh* compared to the completely involving and frankly awesome experience I get with my Pandora.


My assessment is that the Pandora, in spite of *everything* that it's had to overcome, all the delays and what you would call inferior specs... is actually a far superior device to my Sensation... and the Sensation costs more AND is mass produced by one of the big players.


Bottom line: If you never fantisized about a device like the Pandora before discovering that some brilliant chaps have actually gone ahead and MADE it a reality... then you'll never understand the Pandora as 'A Dream Come True' like it is for most of us.


P.s. Have fun in the mainstream, but I won't be joining you - the waters there aren't to my liking...

 

[FaeMinx]

I havent used anything on the pandora that needs pressure sensitive input yet (i dont use paint programs anyway) and even if there was something you can handle this with capacitive screens by simple setting the pressure level in the app itself its kind of fake pressure, but its worked fine for years with photoshop

Gah! Blasphemy!


It hasn't worked just fine for years with Photoshop... Fake pressure will never ever EVER be acceptible. I personaly demand as much pressure sensitivity and precision as is technologically possible in a touch screen (I have a Wacom Cintiq 12wx with 1024 levels of pressure sensitivity, tilt tech and rotation tech that picks up exactly how I'm holding my stylus).


I find capacitive screens incredibly limited... My choice of natural media would be a 0.3mm B graphite Pacer.


Trying to do any art on a capacitive screen is like being forced to use a chunky stick of charcoal that has no sharp points... and that you are forced to *smudge* with your finger if you wish to achieve a convincing tonal gradient.


I LOATH charcoal.... and thus I can't wait untill capacitive screens are history and we go back to using resistive.


P.s. One of the things I love most about my Cintiq is that it only responds to input from the stylus... My fingers, body parts, and any other material evokes no response whatsoever! ^_^

 

[Linux-SWAT]

And about a girlfriend ?


Better have a capacitive or a resistive one ? Multitouch or pressure sensitive ?