Fulfilling preorders without EvilDragon.... Here be dragons!

[iprice]

I don't disagree, but trying to work out who best to donate to and prioritising the list of who does and who doesn't get a machine, with the available funds, will be a really shitty (and time consuming) job. Most people donating don't pick or choose who should get a Pandora, or how the money is used, but it is their money so perhaps it really is their choice. However, donations don't usually work like that. When you give to charity, you don't get to choose who actually benefits. Obviously this is VERY different.

People are going to be left high and dry and I don't disagree that the Pandora needs more users that are productive and visible and benefit the community. However until users have machines it's difficult to know how productive or visible etc. they will be. Of course it is possible to develop Pandora apps without a Pandora, as I'm sure many of us have done. Testing is problematic, but not impossible. But again just because you can prove that you can do these things for the community doesn't mean that you will when the time comes.

ED has done a sterling job, but obviously he can't continue doing what he has been doing. So perhaps there does need to be a way now of working out how best to move on from this.

 

[Grench]

I have an idea of how to handle the donation money in the most efficient manner possible - i.e. to help the most pre-orders.  However it would be difficult to set up.

Day 1.

Post a Pandora queue upgrade to ED's store at a 10 EUR discount using 10 EUR of the donor's money to make the difference.

Day 2.

If the Day 1 Pandora queue upgrade is sold, go to Day 1.

Else post a Pandora queue upgrade to ED's store at a 20EUR discount using 20 EUR of the donor's money to make the difference.  There should be 2 in the store at this point - one at 10 EUR the other at 20 EUR discounts.

Day 3.

If the Day 1 10 EUR discount Pandora queue upgrade is sold, go to Day 1.

Else if the day 2 20 EUR discount Pandora queue upgrade is sold, go to Day 2.

Else post a Pandora queue upgrade to ED's store at a 30EUR discount using 30 EUR of the donor's money to make the difference.

There should be 3 in the store at this point - one at 10 EUR, one at 20 EUR and one at 30 EUR discounts.

Day 4.

Same idea - add a 40 EUR discount if funds available and the 10,20,30 haven't sold.

Keep going until donor funds or queue are empty.  In theory this could go until there is a 'free' cross queue upgrade posted - but unlikely.

 

[HelenF]

Having a dev queue taking small donations would raise the problem of who gets into it and who gets a Pandora first. And small donations to individuals could result in many partial Pandoras. So maybe it only makes sense if a small number of people want to sponsor a whole Pandora for somebody.

 

[aatu]

@Grench's suggestion:

Actually, I was thinking about that sort of arrangement a few years ago, unrelated to OP business, though.
And yes, that would indeed be quite interesting. I would certainly vote for that, just out of pure curiousity.

(Preferably with visible history statistics for everyone.)

 

[Grench]

@Grench's suggestion:

Actually, I was thinking about that sort of arrangement a few years ago, unrelated to OP business, though.


And yes, that would indeed be quite interesting. I would certainly vote for that, just out of pure curiousity.


(Preferably with visible history statistics for everyone.)

The basic principle is a reverse auction.  Start high and discount until someone volunteers to buy at that price.

It isn't fair to the queue order - which is moot anymore anyway.

It should spread the donation money thinner - meaning more people are 'in'.

Another permutation if the donor money is enough to support it...

Instead of placing one unit per price tier per day...

Day 1:  1 @ 10 discount.

Day 2:  2 @ 10, 1 @ 20 discount

Day 3:  3 @ 10, 2 @ 20, 1 @ 30 discount

...

If the highest discounted unit gets 'bought', stop there until it isn't bought for a full day.  If the cheapest two tiers are both bought, only populate the least discounted one on the following day.

Spread those donations thin - get as many Pandoras into as many hands as possible.

It also provides motivation for the queue to help themselves.  Those who can't, sorry, but you're likely out of luck.

 

[Timstertoo]

I love this idea. Everyone can suss out his own sweetspot from the comfort of his own home.


Or hope for Craig to do the right thing.


The combination of the donation money becoming a scarce commodity and having one yanked away from you everytime it nears the point you'd pull the trigger will surely get the price a bit higher.


It would be up to ED then to decide for himself how much he is willing to donate and when thus making it a true community effort again.


Sucks for the people who can't afford any extra money, and people like me who are willing to pay some more but will have to see a lot of units get snagged up before there is enough saturation to get the price down far enough. But end of the day the thing we need most of all is as many units out there asap.


Also this whole drama is killing/splitting the community. I certainly am getting turned of a bit on certain aspects but if I have the choice between going apeshit, which has its appeal, or find a way that works for most I'd rather bite my tongue at this point and pony up some more money.


Xxx

 

[PokeParadox]

I like this idea - it stretches the donation pot as far as it can go and help more people a little - potentially gets more units out there!

 

[_wb_]

Good suggestion, Grench!

Reverse auction was also the original idea of the survey - get units first to those who want to pay most. But your proposal is more fine-grained and might work better.

Another way to do this kind of thing, would be to let all pre-orderers make a private bid of how much they would be prepared to pay themselves. Each day, the K highest bidders get their unit (the pre-order fund pays for the difference between their bids and the actual price), all remaining pre-orderers can adjust their bids, and the game repeats until we run out of donations or the queue is empty.

 

[Nagelfar]

I like this reverse auction idea.
 

 

[double7]

Me too. But i'm afraid ED couldn't handle that reverse auction easily. Do you really want him spend his time to adjust the price of Pandoras every day? Reverse auction have to be an automatic function of the online shop. As the osCommerce shop is open source it may be a good idea to forward the reverse auction idea to the osCo community? Or at first look, check the 7000 addons (gulp!) for that function.

 

The Repo supports donation directly to apps, respecive their authors.

That's for current devs. I may want to support new comers. Did you even read my post?

I did, but i did't understood that point at first. That's because i don't think devs do it that way. Look around, any donations for software are for work already done. Except projects like kickstarter and such - but that kind of development is a "code for living" one. Sadly, the pandora project is to small to make a living by selling software to it's community - and that idea is in somewhat direct opposition to the open spirit of the Pandora. The Pandora is open for commercial software too, but its heart are devs like _wb_ who said he didn't like to get money first because the pressure of the debt would knock down the fun and by that his motivation too.

Btw, there were "dev badges" to buy with the preorders. ED did donate dev pandora boards during the startup phase to several devs. Those prototype boards were really expensive and i remember ED said that the gain of that donation was nothing at all compared to the cost. I'm convinced that this could happen to donation money motivated devs too. It would be like kickstarter, as a donation is not a contract including your right to get something back.

You are still free to support new devs to get them interested in the pandora, i prefer donation into usable results and put a cherry on the cake of fun motivated devs.

 

I don't think thats a good idea. Psycologically people will go more likely with easily reachable goals. The small 1200 euro goals will be reached faster, the donators get their positive feedback earlier. Seeing a light in the tunnel makes you run faste

If the people in the preorder queue realise that ED needs to find $80,000us... It might have the effect of giving EVERYBODY a better idea of the truth and make people see how boned and helpful ED has been.

Hm, that's a point. Maybe with an additional summary progress bar?
 

None are more entitled than any other - developer or not.

On paper everyone who preordered is entitled to have one. Period. But they won't, anyway.

My point is that since it will be impossible to pay for all the ones who pre-ordered, we need to make choices as to who gets one if we donate.
Or if you are fine to just give your money randomly, well so be it, but I won't donate in that way.

I trust ED and the community and believe that everyone (who still wants one) will have one. Not now, but they will.

Believing the above the result is that i think you are talking about queue jumping.

You want to see a Pandora in the hands of a new dev because that could add new apps for the community (you, and us).

If i still were a remaining preorder that means you are asking me to wait longer for my pandora because all of you want your advantage. After years of waiting i'm not sure if i could get used to that. It was hard to see the money queue jumps, even if i knew it would help other waiting preorders like myself to get their unit too.

If you are right and there will be preorders without pandoras would you take the last pandora out of the hands of its queued owner and give to a dev down the queue? I feel that's like taking the gold medal from the first and give it to the 7th place because you think he could do better.

But we are talking about your money and you can do what _you_ want to do with it. I think you still can do that. Offer your donation to the preorder dev of your choice and pay his upgrade (to ED directly). We have to accept it, it's your money and decision.

 

[Godmil]

That reverse auction thing is the best Idea I've heard in a long time, that would surely encourage people to put in more of there own money than they would otherwise (I know it would work for me) which would put the donations to good use. Sounds like a lot of work, maybe some people could donate time or code to get it running. I really hope it's adopted because its an awesome idea that will certainly get the queue out of the way I'n no time.

 

[WizardStan]

I like it, it's very tweakable, and open to sudden bursts.

One per day taking too long, or it hit your price but you missed it? Ok, for the next two weeks we'll be putting FIVE every day at increasing discounts!

Next three days are double discount! For every day that passes the price will drop $20 instead of $10.

And so on and so forth.

Just gotta find the good starting point. Is one unit and $10 per day good? Or should it be 3 units and $5 per day? Or whatever. Yeah, definitely a good idea.

 

[b_o_b]

I like this idea but personally I am against any donation whatsoever before Craig is officially bankrupt. This isn't a personal vendetta against Craig (I always thought his behavior was kind of Basil Fawlty funny), it is just how it should work in business. As long as he isn't bankrupt, he should deliver or pay the refunds and not the community. He can say he has lots of debts and can't pay, but that is not for Craig to decide or determine. 

 

[Grench]

OK, so I think we may have a viable methodology to increase the impact from the donations.

There is a high overhead in setting up and maintaining that in ED's shop.  Unfortunately, the nature of this idea makes that unavoidable.

I think that puts the motion in ED's court for his opinion.

b_o_b - if only having Craig chip in or participate in a solution were an option.  If you decide to pursue it, good luck storming the castle!

 

[Timstertoo]

I like it, it's very tweakable, and open to sudden bursts.


One per day taking too long, or it hit your price but you missed it? Ok, for the next two weeks we'll be putting FIVE every day at increasing discounts!


Next three days are double discount! For every day that passes the price will drop $20 instead of $10.


And so on and so forth.


Just gotta find the good starting point. Is one unit and $10 per day good? Or should it be 3 units and $5 per day? Or whatever. Yeah, definitely a good idea.

I think it should be geared towards getting as much units out there as possible. Which makes it harder because at the same time we'd want to sell as many at $300.- as possible.

Problem is, why would you pay $300,- if you can get one at $290,-? So putting a new one up for $290,- instantly after one is sold won't work.

So alternatively maybe ED should say there are only units available for $300,- for the next three months. If you want instant gratification now, pay that amount. After that time the price dropping system comes into play for as long as there is donation money.

That way more units can be put up and the drop might go faster just to maximise on the output of units.

 

[Grench]

I can see where you're going, but the cross upgrade for 'normal' discount has been up for a long time already.  I suspect those who would be inclined to 'just do it' have likely already 'done it'.

Note - the offer would be made to outstanding Craig queue pre-orders only.

The full price cross queue upgrades would, in theory, still exist even if the donation assisted cross queue upgrades were 'out of stock'.

It just seems a shame to see another bucket of donations go to shipping 10 more Pandoras outright/free when the same donor cash may have been able to send out 50+.

 

[Timstertoo]

That's an excellent point. Also my suggestion wouldn't be in my personal best interest as I'm willing to shell out something now but sadly € 300,- is out of the question.

In the spirit of everybody chipping in a bit more I asked ED if I could fill one of the € 200,- spots that hadn't paid (instead of €150,-)  through pm (no answer). So that's the amount I'll be waiting for if the reverse auction becomes the new plan.

Although I'd much rather pay it right now and get it sent as soon as the lcd's arrive of course! 

 

[darkborn]

But I found a solution: I'll donate to ekianjo, and he will donate to me. This way we both get our Pandoras for free! h34r:

 

[Timstertoo]

But I found a solution: I'll donate to ekianjo, and he will donate to me. This way we both get our Pandoras for free! h34r:

Sorry, can't happen. We need you angry and without a Pandora until we can get the "Get a ticket to Newcastle for Darkborn" fund going. I'm pretty sure it could really be a gamechanger.  

Oh and pics or it didn't happen! 

 

[darkborn]

But I found a solution: I'll donate to ekianjo, and he will donate to me. This way we both get our Pandoras for free! h34r:

Sorry, can't happen. We need you angry and without a Pandora until we can get the "Get a ticket to Newcastle for Darkborn" fund going. I'm pretty sure it could really be a gamechanger.

Oh and pics or it didn't happen! 

I'm in dilemma now. I'll agree if funding consider a katana. Whipcord at least. You know, Tarantino way.