First generation games for OpenPandora?

[Pickle]

Wizzley won't compile for the Pandora without huge modifications.

You can port it to java script but you cant port a C app to another C platform...


Who actually tried to compile it? as far as ive known you didnt release that source to anyone.

People have tried to get Dizzy Wizards running right on the Pandora too without success.

what?! <_< Dizzy Wizards is practically almost done, all that is needed is either fix or rewrite the mouse/touchscreen code. The main reason neither I or Torpor have finished it time, keep in mind we both are working on this on our free time. For the parts i worked on I even dropped my personal projects to work on it, which improved the state of the game considerably.


Your statment is very misleading and doesnt properly reflect what really has happened. There is no techincal reason Dizzy Wizards will not be playable and behave the same as the ios version. All that is needed is time and motivation.

 

[foxblock]

well, without gpl'ed apps / games for Pandora, aurora rift will be surely more visible.

Absolutely not, what on earth would make you believe that?


On the contrary even, Arora Rift even got a few extra mentions, because it was the first commercial app, so it got mentioned on PP and in the "commercial apps" thread for example.


Every app that gets an extraordinary amount of attention deserves it, just because it exceeds in one way compared to the competition - take "Forget me not" as an example. Those apps are passed around by word of mouth and spread like that, this has nothing to do with GPL or them being free (again not the same!!!), it's just because those are good apps.

 

[StreaK]

well, without gpl'ed apps / games for Pandora, aurora rift will be surely more visible.

Okay. And WHERE would it be visible? And PLEASE stop to mix GPL with freeware/non commercial. -_-

am not mixing GPL with freeware


im points GPL soft like: PRBOOM / eDUKE 3D / PICODRIVE / MUPEN / PCSX / ioQUAKE 3and not any freeware [closed source app / game] that is easy compilable on OP.


This is my point of view. Im not trying to force anyone with my opinion.


The point is that if ever pandora 2 will come up, it should be firstly created for indie dev in mind [show them ready & working commercial app shop , like repo.openpandora mixed with PSP Online Shop]. Compiler + libs should be released for indie studios firstly [and exclusively for some time] long before pandora 2 arrive - that means pandora 2 should be brewed in secrecy [ only for few people involved ] and mostly for all pandora 2 should not be compatible backward with OP. [all this should be probably done, because ED have already investors and good funds to kick pandora 2 project..]


all this should be done to help develop community consciousness for both commercial and freeware, and to help living with each other. Otherwise OP 2 will be doomed for comercial apps/games like original OP. First thing [major ]to help indie dev's then [minor] help for normal gpl app / games porters [but only when indie dev will have commercial apps for OP2]


If the model of earning money from OP2 will be switched from OP hardware to %% from sold indie apps / games we will be in home, because users will know that without support for indie devs they're would literally kill OP2 and ED Company with it..


How could ED lower the price of OP2 ? For example involve indie devs with OP2, and let make preorders of games [yes, no hardware, but software] from indie devs for OP2, then , take %% from preorders to produce & develop OP2. Users will be having fresh software booked and cheaper hardware OP2, indie will earn money before actually do anything [this is actually good, for community too] and ED will gather some funds for further development of OP2.

 

[skeezix]

I just have to say (and bite my tongue) its so cool to see people who've never sold applications on mobile platforms talking about the economics of it all


GPL is not a problem for commercial applications. Goodness, where did that come from?


Emus are a problem, because of concerns over liability -- one emu can bring thousands of games, and who knows about the licensing issues of every single one of those, plus concerns over reverse engineering and BIOS inclusions and all that. Its just too much a headache for a nanny store to worry over (not to mention that rights owners (or past rioghts owners) sure love to port old stuff to new platforms as 'retro', and don't want to right with free copies of their own game. Thats both right and wrong, depending.)


But surely, as to open platforms, it is purely a function of numbers. Cost of a developer time (including his desk, hydro, heating, cleanign staff, benefits and insurance, and so on) is a lot, and a device with less than a few hundred thousand units sold is not even on the radar for profits for a new game. A very light duty port, maybe, but the companies are usually looking for a bigger bite.


Anyway, wow, stressful threads, I'm not going to get into this flame war, but sooooo tempting


jeff

 

[StreaK]

I just have to say (and bite my tongue) its so cool to see people who've never sold applications on mobile platforms talking about the economics of it all

Just because , you're here, on this forum, is enough reason to take your "bites" not seriously. Or maybe you're managing big indie dev software [that nobody knows]. Never know..

 

[skeezix]

Made a living doing indie software sales for a lot of years Anyway, lets not get into all that. Well, to wit, I've _sold_ commercial emulators, I've licensed game ROMs from companies, I've done presentations of GPL, homegrown and fully commercial games and emus to Namco Theres a lot of game devs in our forums here, since we've got awesome forums and been around awhile, and all these GPH machines and OP do attract a lot of awesome cool people (thats why you're ehre, right?


Stuff like "Believe me, Caanoo + Dingoo..." doesn't make useful argument in the forum though; believe you.. why? Wheres your supporting numbers? Throw some back of the envelope numbers down just for fun to see if it works?


(any idea how many Caanoo actually got sold? And do you know where they got sold, so you know the number of potential customers in any given region, and what sort of software they bought? And that there is commercial software for Caanoo, and its not selling particularly well, so isn't that counter evidence right there? Usually you do a market acceptance analysis to figure out the size of your given market and if they're interested, and you work out how many %age of those might find out abotu your thing, and how many of those in turn might actually buy it, and so on.)


For sure, there is a culture of 'free' (not Freedom, just wanting stuff for 'free'), and in these days with iOS appstore driving prices down, theres a huge expectation that everythign should be $1 (and not very comprehensive.. we used to sell apps with all the power of a desktop app on Palm, Pocket PC and so on, and charge a real buck for it; but nwo for $2 apps, you can't invest so much effort into the app dev cycle, too much risk versus reward.)


All these statements flying around about GPL is bad for this or that .. wheres that from? Just a guess from your gutt? (Counter.. sell those sales on Android and iphone and so on.. you trhink asll those sales are worried about GPL? Apple are protective twats, but the GPL is surely not in the app way OR that its hard for indie devs to work in larger groups? Really? Indie devs are often employees at large companies during the day, right Or working on large projects.. really?


Theres a lot of total guesses in thisd thread, but I mean, the stats and real stuff isn't too hard to find; it sort of pains me to see some of this, since I want to go throwing a lot of info in but I don't have the time right now, and my type-A brain really wants to get engaged, I love this sort of chatter We've got whole mailing lists and forums for mobile app devs and economic chatter and such


Anyway, aaaagh, this pains me, but I've not time to post huge piles of links and graphs and stuff.. but be mindful, this is not new territory, theres lots of info out there, and I think its not at all what you think


GPL is fine in most places, Emus are a pain in app store asses, and open handhelds rock for indie stuff, but are nigh impossible to make a buck on app sales due to volume of units sold and general malaise in the consumer to lay down a buck except for the very cream of the crop.


But that all said, if we can get 20,000 pandoras out, and some really good apps get made, there is some bucks to be made.


I've made living on being the niche guy .. pick a niche, do a better jiob that the next guy, and you can make a good living. In a small pool, if you're the big man, it can work, but its hard. In a big pool, its great to be the #10 guy -- goign for top 3 is hell and very expensive and a hard fight, all those guys will fight like hell. But going for the #10 spot means killing the bottom feeders (easy) amd doijng a good job.. and you'll fall right in; then go for #9, and #8, etc, until you find your comfort zone..


Agh, must run, but donm't want to..


jeff

 

[Link]

"By making the software available on open source terms, the owner creates a large and inexpensive distribution channel... In many cases, the software is bundled with third-party offerings, and is distributed by others not formally affiliated with the owner. Open source distribution makes the software ubiquitous, putting it in the hands of many users at a very low cost." Michael Olson, Open Sources 2.0

 

[craigix]

People have tried to get Dizzy Wizards running right on the Pandora too without success.

what?! <_< Dizzy Wizards is practically almost done, all that is needed is either fix or rewrite the mouse/touchscreen code. The main reason neither I or Torpor have finished it time, keep in mind we both are working on this on our free time. For the parts i worked on I even dropped my personal projects to work on it, which improved the state of the game considerably.


Your statment is very misleading and doesnt properly reflect what really has happened. There is no techincal reason Dizzy Wizards will not be playable and behave the same as the ios version. All that is needed is time and motivation.

Right so to edit down your comments there, you're basically saying 'It still isn't working right'.


Which is what I said.


That's been the situation for about a year since I released the source.


I'm putting in the effort with Wizzley and HTML5 because I believe it stands a far better chance of working on almost every device in that state than trying to do a C port/hack for the Pandora.

 

[skeezix]

You've been enjoying yourself on tyhe ports and stuff; good times


But why not start on a game? One of your own?


If you're probing, discouraged.. can't make a mark in iOS/Android because of GPL and the high bar of Angry Birds, or discouraged because you dont' think you can make a buck on Pandora (noting that Pandora is standard Linux really, so shoudl not be considered in isolatiom.. everythign shoudl be cross platform or HTML5 or the like anyway) .. don't.


Do it; always strike out on your own and do it, its fun, its worth it for that alone, and if you make a buck, thats great. Its harder to strike out and start a company and take on costs to do it, but I think you're in a position to do it on the side, in spare time (of which none of us have enough .. but try it, trust me, you can do it.


(Heck, I've made and sold some crummy little games that I worked on only at 3am in scraps of time, over a couple of months!)


Righjt now is a tough time to choose how to build .. we all want the promise of HTML5 to work .. 'easy' cross platform! But theres a lot of risks there too (no easy 'installer' available, so you make peopel open a browser and suck a big app down for ages.. or stream content live, if possible .. and 3D is not workable, yet, etc.) I'm a fan of hybrid, native client with HTML shipped from upstream, so you can get the best of both, but thats hard sell these days. Or mobile native clients, which are huge right now, but are all lock in .. iOS being ObjC (meh, but at least C/C++ can blen din there nice..), and Android being Java preferred. But with native C still working on Android, and on iOS, then building in C/C++ for Pandora/Linux/Desktop is the way to go, with ports to iOS and Android say ... I'm more a fan of python these days, and python for android and iOS is pretty promising right now (with actrual python apps on the markets, too!), so.. good times. Lua is around in some apps and getting big, and so on.


Lots of choices.. too many I'd say, all with pros and cons.


But do it, donm't be discouraged, do it


jeff

 

[foxblock]

skeezix, always the voice of reason


Anyway,

The point is that if ever pandora 2 will come up, it should be firstly created for indie dev in mind [show them ready & working commercial app shop , like repo.openpandora mixed with PSP Online Shop]. Compiler + libs should be released for indie studios firstly [and exclusively for some time] long before pandora 2 arrive - that means pandora 2 should be brewed in secrecy [ only for few people involved ] and mostly for all pandora 2 should not be compatible backward with OP. [all this should be probably done, because ED have already investors and good funds to kick pandora 2 project..]

So you want to throw the "open"-idea of OpenPandora right down the trash... rrrrright, that seems like a good idea.


I don't think the idea of exclusive commercial development was really considered when the Pandora was formed (at least it took a while to get a retail platform out there, even though it was promised for much longer), so I don't know how to go in that direction.


Sure the Pandora seems like an ideal device for indie development, but there are some key problems with it currently like way too small userbase (if you want to make a living), which would have to be tackled first.


Then OpenPandora taking action in the marketplace (by taking a share) does not seem like the favoured approach from their side (at least they had a hands-off approach so far) - so is this the direction they actually want to go in?


Changing this model of community-interaction and business model seems pretty radical and requires much more thought in my eyes, so I won't throw any premature ideas or recommendations out here...


BTW, StreaK please tick the "Show Edit by line" checkbox under your reply next time you make an edit, so one can actually see when you did and added something - it might just be overlooked otherwise.

 

[StreaK]

Stuff like "Believe me, Caanoo + Dingoo..." doesn't make useful argument in the forum though; believe you.. why? Wheres your supporting numbers? Throw some back of the envelope numbers down just for fun to see if it works?


jeff

I've tried to create a good list of sold caanoo / dingoo / wiz 5 months back, i dont garantee it will be 100% sure with real sellings, but as far is i checked there was more than 20.000-25.000 dingoo sold [caanoo / wiz = i need to find it to check exact amout that i found.. (at least we can ask Craig / ED to view the sellings in europe..)]. There was a time when dingoo was sold 500 /1,5 months in poland on polish auctions. And if you think about that poland isnt well prepared for retro-gaming-handhelds its very good sign.

 

[craigix]

HTML5 + Android on Pandora2 = all the commercial games you want.

 

[pmprog]

I'm a fan of hybrid, native client with HTML shipped from upstream, so you can get the best of both, but thats hard sell these days.

yeah, that cuts off your cross platform though. I personally can't stand javascript. The language is ugly and untyped, encourages laziness (and I'm already too lazy)... I would love to embrace HTML5, and one day I'll probably have to, but until then, I'll even take VB.NET over javascript

 

[StreaK]

Yeah. Android could be nice add on , especially when switched to "preferred" OS, even if i dont like fully philosophy of android, i would use it.

 

[StreaK]

So you want to throw the "open"-idea of OpenPandora right down the trash... rrrrright, that seems like a good idea.

EDIT..EDIT


Of course not. What i mean is to push indie dev on first place [the 1st priority], everything else [ports] will be done next, and in the meantime [like on gp2x / wiz / op previously]. OP will be open, but more focused on exclusive or commercial ports than emulators / engines. It makes sense for me. Of course , im not saying it will be easy.. it will be damn hard [completely new idea of earning money for OP co.]

 

[Pickle]

People have tried to get Dizzy Wizards running right on the Pandora too without success.

what?! <_< Dizzy Wizards is practically almost done, all that is needed is either fix or rewrite the mouse/touchscreen code. The main reason neither I or Torpor have finished it time, keep in mind we both are working on this on our free time. For the parts i worked on I even dropped my personal projects to work on it, which improved the state of the game considerably.


Your statment is very misleading and doesnt properly reflect what really has happened. There is no techincal reason Dizzy Wizards will not be playable and behave the same as the ios version. All that is needed is time and motivation.

Right so to edit down your comments there, you're basically saying 'It still isn't working right'.


Which is what I said.


That's been the situation for about a year since I released the source.


I'm putting in the effort with Wizzley and HTML5 because I believe it stands a far better chance of working on almost every device in that state than trying to do a C port/hack for the Pandora.

My point is your comment makes it sound like the most of game isnt running, besides one minor control problem it will run and be ready for release. When I got involved with the porting effect, yes it was in bad shape. Most of the edge replacment was there, but it needed work. I had no part in the fact that it took one 1 year to get where it is, i do think I did help get it to a much better state in a short amount of time. When i first started graphics were wrong, logic was missing, sound handling wasnt done. (No offense meant towards Torpor, i just think he didnt have time to work on it).


Yes i can see from your perspective if you port to HTML5, it may run on any platform that supports a brower that support HTML5, provided it can run it fast enough. From a comment earlier sounds like HTML5 was very slow on the pandora.


Really I have no issues with your assperations to port to HTML5, I dont think its the golden cow of code systems. I think its going to have its own problems as with any supporting any platform or OS. The biggest is going to be speed since your using interperted code, although it would help for the java engine to support arm in some fashion. It may work for some, but its not going to work for all solutions.

 

[Prometheus]

and mostly for all pandora 2 should not be compatible backward with OP. [all this should be probably done, because ED have already investors and good funds to kick pandora 2 project..]

Please pardon me if I'm misunderstanding this, but I can only see this forcing people to have to reinvent the wheel and throw away previous work. This strikes me as a really bad idea. :blink:

 

[StreaK]

and mostly for all pandora 2 should not be compatible backward with OP. [all this should be probably done, because ED have already investors and good funds to kick pandora 2 project..]

Please pardon me if I'm misunderstanding this, but I can only see this forcing people to have to reinvent the wheel and throw away previous work. This strikes me as a really bad idea. :blink:

Every new generation of consoles / handhelds is a reinventing the wheel when we look a games for these handhelds. No doubt about that. The basic reason for excitation for common joe is not to play in games that was played on other system year ago, but to see old app in new clothes.. otherwise , you could say, "im not playing angry birds.. because i have Worms+ and Scorchered Earth.. and now.. get lost.."


EDIT:


There are some people, that like to watch progess of downloading a movie [via wget], than really watching the movie itself [after downloading].. how normal is that ?

 

[Prometheus]

and mostly for all pandora 2 should not be compatible backward with OP. [all this should be probably done, because ED have already investors and good funds to kick pandora 2 project..]

Please pardon me if I'm misunderstanding this, but I can only see this forcing people to have to reinvent the wheel and throw away previous work. This strikes me as a really bad idea. :blink:

Every new generation of consoles / handhelds is a reinventing the wheel when we look a games for these handhelds. No doubt about that. The basic reason for excitation for common joe is not to play in games that was played on other system year ago, but to see old app in new clothes.. otherwise , you could say, "im not playing angry birds.. because i have Worms+ and Scorchered Earth.. and now.. get lost.."

I'm really sorry, I just don't understand... My DS was backwards-compatible with my GBA software, my 3DS is backwards-compatible with my DS and DSiWare software, my Wii is backwards-compatible with my GameCube software, my Wii U will be backwards-compatible with my Wii software. (EDIT: And even talking about more general-purpose devices, each iPhone/iPod touch/iPad revision is still compatible with the previous software, too, if I'm not mistaken.)


So, again, I'm not seeing why the Pandora 2 should be made to be incompatible with the several years of work preceding it. Again, perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying?

 

[WizardStan]

From a comment earlier sounds like HTML5 was very slow on the pandora.

HTML5 is still very slow even on regular computers. There was a post about a C&C clone ported to HTML5, and that simple, incomplete engine maxed out one of the cores on my compile server, and barely ran on my 1.6Ghz laptop. I'm sure it will get there eventually, but it still has a long way to go before it's the future.